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Ongoing religious scandals

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    #2882
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    recedite wrote: »
    I admit I don't really understand what the phrase "arranging the celebration of mass for someone's intentions" means, but I think most people understand it to mean that a personalised prayer will be issued for the named individual. Or at least that was the original concept.

    You can buy a card called a "sympathy card" which expresses all that, but without the payment for a personalised prayer.

    But I agree if you are paying for a prayer, you should get a prayer, regardless of whether it actually smooths anyone's journey into the afterlife.
    That's why I say its a whole new level of swindle when you pay for a fake item, but get nothing at all.

    When my father died we received over 200 Mass cards from well wishers.
    This doesn't mean that my father was mentioned by name at 200 masses.
    Or any masses
    That would be insanity.
    If I want a mass said to mark the anniversary of his death in our local church I will go down and arrange that with the priest
    It is agreed that during that specific mass the priest will ask the congregation to remember and pray for my father
    Sometimes now 2 "special intentions" get a mention at the same mass
    It maybe the anniversary of my fathers death and also Paddy Ryan's months mind
    Both my father and Paddy will get at least one mention each during the mass.
    Family and friends find this comforting.


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    #2883
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    infogiver wrote: »
    When my father died we received over 200 Mass cards from well wishers.
    This doesn't mean that my father was mentioned by name at 200 masses.
    Or any masses
    That would be insanity.
    If I want a mass said to mark the anniversary of his death in our local church I will go down and arrange that with the priest
    It is agreed that during that specific mass the priest will ask the congregation to remember and pray for my father
    Sometimes now 2 "special intentions" get a mention at the same mass
    It maybe the anniversary of my fathers death and also Paddy Ryan's months mind
    Both my father and Paddy will get at least one mention each during the mass.
    Family and friends find this comforting.
    yeah. 200 masses, that would be insane. Everything else, that is perfectly fine, but 200 masses would definitely be insane.

    MrP


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    #2884
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    MrPudding wrote: »
    yeah. 200 masses, that would be insane. Everything else, that is perfectly fine, but 200 masses would definitely be insane.

    MrP

    Yes everything else is perfectly fine, and par for the course for thousands and thousands of people in Ireland in 2017.
    Wether you think it's insanity or not, thousands of Mass cards continue to be purchased and presented to bereaved family at every religious funeral, and religious funerals are still in the vast majority irregardless of wether you like that or not mr pudding.


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    #2885
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You can arrange to have a particular mass celebrated for a particular intention, which will be stated at the mass.
    I have no idea what the word "intention" means in this context. An intention is normally when you make a decision to do something.
    The "intention" of the mass is surely to pray or to give praise to God?


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    #2886
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    recedite wrote: »
    I have no idea what the word "intention" means in this context. An intention is normally when you make a decision to do something.
    The "intention" of the mass is surely to pray or to give praise to God?

    No that's not the "intention" of the mass at all.
    You could probably benefit from reading up a bit about Catholic masses, I'd imagine a simple Google would fetch you all the information you need.
    Also, you are applying the word "intention" literally. In this sense "intention" means an item or occurrence that is causing concern to a mass goer.
    Once again it's pointless you trying to debate something you clearly have no knowledge whatsoever of.
    It's the same as someone over on Politics Cafe trying to discuss the homeless situation while having zero information about it.
    I'm aware, in case you don't know, that you may have a notion that you are poking fun at the unfortunate believers...meh...work away there. Whatever floats your boat.


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    #2887
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Google is your friend as they say, but having read this I am none the wiser as to its actual meaning.
    I conclude that "intention" in religious-speak has no logical meaning, and I am putting it into the box with "transubstantiation".


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    #2888
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,111 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If you think of it as a wish (as in a wishing well) you're probably not too far off.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2889
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    recedite wrote: »
    Google is your friend as they say, but having read this I am none the wiser as to its actual meaning. I conclude that "intention" in religious-speak has no logical meaning, and I am putting it into the box with "transubstantiation".
    Well, the article you've linked does say;
    "When a priest offers Holy Mass, he has three intentions: First, to offer the Mass reverently and validly in accord with the norms of the Church. Second, to offer the Mass in union with the whole Church and for the good of the whole Church. Third, to offer the Mass for a particular intention, such as the repose of the soul of someone who has died."
    and
    "The intention of the Mass is also determined by various factors: The Church may stipulate the particular intention; for example, all pastors are required to offer one Mass on Sunday for the intentions of the living and deceased parishioners of a parish. A priest may also have his own particular intention in offering a Mass, such as the repose of the soul of his parents. Finally, a person may ask a priest to offer a Mass for a particular intention; usually, a stipend is given to the priest for offering the Mass, which thereby in justice creates an obligation which must be satisfied. <...> When we face the death of someone, even a person who is not Catholic, to have a Mass offered for the repose of his soul and to offer our prayers are more beneficial and comforting than any other sympathy card or bouquet of flowers. To have a Mass offered on the occasion of a birthday, anniversary or special need is appropriate, beneficial and appreciated."

    If you're no wiser to the meaning after that, perhaps the error is less in the explanation than in the comprehension?


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    #2890
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,152 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    recedite wrote: »
    I have no idea what the word "intention" means in this context. An intention is normally when you make a decision to do something.
    The "intention" of the mass is surely to pray or to give praise to God?
    I think your understanding of "intention" is too narrow. No doubt you're a man of action, rec, but it is possible to intend things other than actions. Even with actions, "intention" usually refers not to the action but to the outcome you hope or expect to achieve through the action. So, if I buy a drink for someone I fancy, my intention is not that they will drink it, or that they will be nourished by it, or whatever, but that through this social interaction One Thing Will Lead To Another.

    You can celebrate mass (or say any prayers or practice any devotions) for a particular intention.


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    #2891
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,138 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I have never been in any doubt what 'intentions' means. It refers to the hoped for outcome of his prayers or wishes by the purchaser of the mass card. The priest offers the mass 'for the intentions of the person receiving the card'. If that request is for someone to be returned to health, that is the intention.

    It is a subtly different meaning to the everyday meaning of the word, but I can't see that it is something to get hung up on.


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    #2892
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Absolam wrote: »
    Well, the article you've linked does say;
    "When a priest offers Holy Mass, he has three intentions: First, to offer the Mass reverently and validly in accord with the norms of the Church. Second, to offer the Mass in union with the whole Church and for the good of the whole Church. Third, to offer the Mass for a particular intention, such as the repose of the soul of someone who has died."
    OK I see now. Its a person making a wish for a particular outcome, which they do by purchasing a mass. The mass is then dedicated to that "intention". But maybe not exclusively dedicated to one persons wish, as there may be other people purchasing dedications of the same mass?
    Anyway, the "repose of their soul" sounds similar to a smoothing of their journey to the afterlife, and the mass is basically an elaborate prayer ritual, so I wasn't far off in my original assumption.

    I think for this to "work", the priest would have to know the name of the deceased and preferably read it out loud, so that he could dedicate the mass for the benefit of that particular person. If the names of two people were read out, they would be receiving half of a mass dedication each.


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    #2893
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    recedite wrote: »
    OK I see now. Its a person making a wish for a particular outcome, which they do by purchasing a mass. The mass is then dedicated to that "intention". But maybe not exclusively dedicated to one persons wish, as there may be other people purchasing dedications of the same mass?
    Anyway, the "repose of their soul" sounds similar to a smoothing of their journey to the afterlife, and the mass is basically an elaborate prayer ritual, so I wasn't far off in my original assumption.

    I think for this to "work", the priest would have to know the name of the deceased and preferably read it out loud, so that he could dedicate the mass for the benefit of that particular person. If the names of two people were read out, they would be receiving half of a mass dedication each.

    The whole mass/intention thing is too complicated for you recedite. Your making your poor brain work much too hard!


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    #2894
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    infogiver wrote: »
    Your making your poor brain work much too hard!
    Don't worry, my brain is used to it. I never take anything on a blind faith basis.


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    #2895
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    recedite wrote: »
    Don't worry, my brain is used to it. I never take anything on a blind faith basis.

    Oh I'm not worried at all.


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    #2896
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    recedite wrote: »
    Anyway, the "repose of their soul" sounds similar to a smoothing of their journey to the afterlife, and the mass is basically an elaborate prayer ritual, so I wasn't far off in my original assumption.


    .

    So a bit like paying ferryman crossing the Styx


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    #2897
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    recedite wrote: »
    OK I see now. Its a person making a wish for a particular outcome, which they do by purchasing a mass. The mass is then dedicated to that "intention". But maybe not exclusively dedicated to one persons wish, as there may be other people purchasing dedications of the same mass?
    Sounds pretty dodgy; I think you just made up the bit about purchasing a mass, didn't you?
    recedite wrote: »
    Anyway, the "repose of their soul" sounds similar to a smoothing of their journey to the afterlife, and the mass is basically an elaborate prayer ritual, so I wasn't far off in my original assumption.
    You think repose (which is a state of rest) is similar to a smooth journey? That sounds pretty far off... notwithstanding the fact that your original assumptions wandered from 'mass cards are a kind of displacement activity', to "I don't really understand what the phrase "arranging the celebration of mass for someone's intentions" means" and ""intention" in religious-speak has no logical meaning".
    recedite wrote: »
    I think for this to "work", the priest would have to know the name of the deceased and preferably read it out loud, so that he could dedicate the mass for the benefit of that particular person. If the names of two people were read out, they would be receiving half of a mass dedication each.
    Is that based on any kind of understanding of what we're discussing? It's just that, you're kind of giving the impression that you're deciding for yourself how a religion you don't believe in and won't research 'works' and how you'd prefer it should be conducted, and what you think the results ought to be. All things that are probably more in the dominion of the religion itself, rather than the province of somewhat unfounded speculation, do you not think?


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    #2898
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Absolam wrote: »
    Sounds pretty dodgy; I think you just made up the bit about purchasing a mass, didn't you?
    I'm aware that the concept has always been historically controversial. I'm only starting to realise now that the usage of the word "intention" is designed to circumvent this theological difficulty. Normally, a living consious brain (human or animal) forms an intention, and then the body acts on it. The concept of a mass having "an intention" is strange and difficult to understand. Its like a chair or a table having an intention. Those things have a "function", not an intention.
    But whats happening here is the "intention" itself is being bought and sold as a pseudo legal mechanism to keep the mass at arms length from the cash.

    Correct me if this analogy is wrong;
    A guy working for the UN is put in charge of a food warehouse in Haiti. All the food packages have "Not For Sale" stamped on them. This guy goes out every day and delivers a batch of packages free of charge. He wakes up every morning and forms "an intention" to travel to some random village distributing the packages to people in need.

    At some point, he decides to sell this "intention".
    Person A is a Haitian living in the US. He sends $50 to this UN guy to purchase "the intention to deliver the package". UN guy then delivers his usual packages, but delivers them specifically to Person A's mother living in a nearby village. For this to work, Person A must send two things to the UN guy; the name and address of his mother, plus the cash.

    The food aid package itself has not been sold, but "the intention" to deliver it has been steered or rededicated in a particular way.

    Apart from the fact that the UN food package comprises actual tangible goods, whereas the effects of the mass in ensuring a good "repose" in the afterlife are less tangible, am I right?


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    #2899
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    recedite wrote: »
    I'm aware that the concept has always been historically controversial.
    That seems to be rather avoiding the fact that you just made it up that that's what's being done though. Isn't it?
    recedite wrote: »
    I'm only starting to realise now that the usage of the word "intention" is designed to circumvent this theological difficulty.
    Are you realising it, or are you making that up to? Because unless you can present some evidence of someone having that theological difficulty and consequently engaging in that design process, I think we have to assume you are making it up.
    recedite wrote: »
    Normally, a living consious brain (human or animal) forms an intention, and then the body acts on it. The concept of a mass having "an intention" is strange and difficult to understand. Its like a chair or a table having an intention. Those things have a "function", not an intention.
    So... the use of the word 'intention' is not as you expect it to be? Perhaps it's because the meaning here is in a context you're not familiar with. I've no doubt that if you can sufficiently familiarise yourself with the context, you'll get to grips with the meaning. Without making stuff up....
    recedite wrote: »
    But whats happening here is the "intention" itself is being bought and sold as a pseudo legal mechanism to keep the mass at arms length from the cash.
    Nah... you're making that up too, aren't you?
    recedite wrote: »
    Correct me if this analogy is wrong;
    <...>, am I right?
    Yeah, it looks like it's wrong. You haven't explained why you think it's analogous, but since you've obviously had a great deal of difficulty reading the information you've been given about intentions in a Mass, maybe it would have been better coming to grips with it before trying to construct an analogy? This would appear to be you trying to create a (rather tortuous) analogy to the stuff that you're making up, rather than the facts of the matter.


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    #2900
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    From your somewhat agitated response, I take it that I am right ;)


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    #2901
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    recedite wrote: »
    From your somewhat agitated response, I take it that I am right ;)
    Sounds like you're still making stuff up so ;)


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    #2902
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    How kind of posters to spend so much time and effort agonising about how daft silly and downright delusional believers are and all to no avail, and to stretch their own imaginations to what I expect must be agony for them.
    It is appreciated even though it may not appear so 😂


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    #2903
    mikhail
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    infogiver wrote: »
    How kind of posters to spend so much time and effort agonising about how daft silly and downright delusional believers are and all to no avail, and to stretch their own imaginations to what I expect must be agony for them.
    It is appreciated even though it may not appear so 😂
    Your troll-fu is weak, friend.


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    #2904
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    mikhail wrote: »
    Your troll-fu is weak, friend.

    Weak and risky too


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    #2905
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,138 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    If religious stuff did not impinge on the daily lives of non-religious people they would not be stirred into protesting about the lack of logic and rationality of religious people.

    Conspiracy theorists for example have all sorts of daft ideas, and believe them, but their theories do not affect me in the slightest, unless I go looking for them, and even then they are only a source of derision.

    Religion however is treated as true and real and relevant, and affects my access to services and things I can and cannot do, so the only way I and others can deal with it is to retreat into this little corner of boards.ie and have a laugh about it. When you think that we could riot and blow things up to get a fair hearing, a bit of a laugh in a corner is really quite harmless. We leave the riots and explosions to religious people.


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    #2906
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    If religious stuff did not impinge on the daily lives of non-religious people they would not be stirred into protesting about the lack of logic and rationality of religious people.
    I can't really see how deliberately misconstruing how something religious works on an atheist forum constitutes a protest... but if it keeps the crazies off the streets then I suppose it's not the worst thing in the world.
    looksee wrote: »
    Conspiracy theorists for example have all sorts of daft ideas, and believe them, but their theories do not affect me in the slightest, unless I go looking for them, and even then they are only a source of derision.
    They may not have affected you (that you know of) but it would be silly to claim they don't affect anyone. Just consider the MPs and Peers whose lives were destroyed by the (utterly unfounded) pedophile ring conspiracy theory a while back. Think of how xenophobic conspiracy theories have shaped history over the centuries.
    looksee wrote: »
    Religion however is treated as true and real and relevant, and affects my access to services and things I can and cannot do, so the only way I and others can deal with it is to retreat into this little corner of boards.ie and have a laugh about it. When you think that we could riot and blow things up to get a fair hearing, a bit of a laugh in a corner is really quite harmless. We leave the riots and explosions to religious people.
    But, just like conspiracy theories, religion is treated as true and real and relevant by those who believe in it, and not by those who don't. Certainly, we can all realistically acknowledge that both conspiracy theories and religions don't need to be true and real and relevant in order to still exert influence on the world, and that such influence isn't always a bad thing. And be fair... riots and explosions aren't the sole province of religious people, are they? Such a notion is the stuff of conspiracy theories...


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    #2907
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,111 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    looksee wrote: »
    If religious stuff did not impinge on the daily lives of non-religious people they would not be stirred into protesting about the lack of logic and rationality of religious people.

    You'd think they'd have the wit to have realised by now that if they want a quieter life, they could just stop bloody annoying people.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2908
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,138 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    You'd think they'd have the wit to have realised by now that if they want a quieter life, they could just stop bloody annoying people.

    Uh? Who are we talking about? Religious or atheist?


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    #2909
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,111 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    looksee wrote: »
    Uh? Who are we talking about? Religious or atheist?

    Well of course those who go out of their way to annoy others (christians and muslims)

    Those who 'annoy' others simply by their very existence, such as jews and atheists, are excused obviously. They don't proselytise, except for atheists through force of ideas :)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2910
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,111 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Interesting article here from a long time Irish resident of Germany about the parallels between RC Ireland and Stasi East Germany:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/his-house-was-always-filled-with-children-but-as-a-teenager-i-shrugged-it-off-1.2926797
    Jahn writes of East Germans and the Stasi: “You didn’t have to believe in the party, you just needed to pretend you did.” That sounds familiar to a population of former Mass-goers: you went to avoid problems, to prevent unnecessary social tension.

    East Germany and clerical Ireland were very different places in one sense, yet similar in another: both were conservative, conformist states sustained well past their best-before date by fear – but also by small compromises made by ordinary people.
    This is not about relativising the perpetrators and their guilt. This is about embracing the whole truth. We all saw and didn’t see back in old Catholic Ireland. We all made compromises, big and small, to conform or to rebel. Condemning others’ behaviour then is no excuse for ignoring one’s own past even now.

    It’s funny, in a way, to look in on Ireland from Berlin and think of the contradiction that was our old, clerical republic. But is it any more ludicrous a contradiction than the “anti-fascist protection barrier” – the official name for the Berlin Wall? Both have been toppled, but while Germany peruses the ruins, we dither. Catholic Ireland was not just them, it is us.
    For clerical abuse survivors such as Marie Collins, the prevailing, blinkered view of our shared Catholic past bodes ill for our future. People tire of hearing of child abuse, she says, yet child abuse still affects up as many as one in four of the population.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2911
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,111 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    This Supreme Court decision could be a game changer.

    Man abused by Marist as a boy awarded €75,000 against order
    The Supreme Court has ruled a man who was “systematically” sexually abused by a Marist while a national school pupil is entitled to €75,000 damages against the brother’s order.

    The four to one majority ruling concerning vicarious liability of religious orders for sexual abuse by their members may have implications for religious orders and other unincorporated associations.

    The High Court found the man, now in his 50s, was abused by his teacher, then Marist Brother Christopher Cosgrove, of Claremorris, Co Mayo, at St John’s School, Sligo, between 1969 and 1972.

    It accepted the man gave a truthful account of his rediscovery of memory of the abuse between 1999 and 2010 and “entirely rejected” Cosgrove’s denial of abuse.

    It heard evidence from former classmates of the man, one of whom described reaching “a point of unbearable revulsion” after seeing the boy held on Brother Cosgrove’s knee and “weeping inconsolably” while his genitalia were fondled through the open front of his trousers.

    The High Court found the man suffered severe post-traumatic stress disorder characterised initially by “extreme avoidance”, had no settled career or settled home life and the abuse “greatly impaired” his life.

    Bankrupt the bastards, I say. Cash is all they care about.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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