Double Track - North Dublin

Disco24

Crawled at snails pace on an off peak drogheda- connolly service this week from howth jct to Connolly section.

4 track along with signalling improvements is in a pipeline.

The doubling of track would mean hundreds of houses, apts along with stations, bridges, roads being demolished. Cost would be huge. Just wondering how realistic the project is.

10 min dart frequency from drogheda without passing loops is going to make enterprise trains be in the same snails pace position.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058346693/double-track-north-dublin

Fourtracking the northern line is due to go to consultation and a report will be released on various options, its going to tender this summer with it being finalised at the end of August.

Ronald Binge Redux

Moving the Northern line to four track removes the issues with any potential branch to the Airport (supplementary to, not substitute for Metrolink) and regenerating the Drogheda - Navan branch (similarly, supplementary to M3 Parkway - Navan; and not a substitute for it).

gjim

I suspect that Dublin will have a 2nd if not a 3rd metro line before the Northern line gets 4 tracked. Most of the benefit for 4-tracking accrues to the Enterprise - DART speeds would not be improved while DART capacity would increase by only 10% or 15%. In any cost benefit analysis this will never work - Belfast/Dublin carries about 3 or 4 thousands a day on average - there are bus routes in Dublin that carry more than that. Say - optimistically - 4 tracking could be done for 2B - spending this amount to improve journey times for 3k passengers a day will never stack up.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122015104#Comment_122015104

3million people live in counties Down, Antrim, Armagh, Louth and Dublin, so I think it's safe to say there is untapped demand there. The North and South are moving in one clear direction and that needs to be supported by proper infrastructure. The economic potential of the corridor is enormous.

Anyone doing a CBA on the route and assuming 3,000 daily passengers would be seriously misinformed.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014201#Comment_122014201

Not really, if Metrolink is built then there is little benefit to a Clongriffin line to the airport.

The journey time from the city center to the airport via Metrolink would be much faster then via a quad tracked northern line and Clongriffin line. And it would be much cheaper to extend Metrolink from Swords to Donabate (shorter distance and no need for second station at the airport) than it would be to build the Clongriffin to Airport branch.

The CBA for this line, even with quad tracking in place would still be very poor versus extending Metrolink.

Disco24

I think the push back from residents would be huge on loss of property. Does the new ETCS provide a solution to snail pace of drogheda commuter service.

Other option I thought was passing loops at a redesigned killester station using grounds from Clontarf golf club and maybe similiar at raheny and clontarf Rd that wouldn't make ground lost a political land mine with houses being lost.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122014176#Comment_122014176

First shovel in the ground 2050

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122015740#Comment_122015740

They should have bought every house that came on sale here for years, and bought ones across the road so that if people are not happy you can offer them that house.

KrisW1001

I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper and quicker to just assign this line exclusively to DART and build another, more direct north-south link from scratch (connect the Western line to Heuston, then Dunboyne to Drogheda) for the long distance services.

if it was DART services alone on the corridor, they wouldn't really benefit from multi tracking because DARTs are all "all stops" trains.

If you're going to spend a fortune to remove interference from long distance trains, why not end up with a shorter intercity route at the end of it? (Plus, if you make room for four tracks, you can expand DART along the same corridor).

At some point, we will have to make a choice between keeping a mainline rail station close to the city centre (Connolly), or building a high frequency, efficient urban rail system for Dublin and moving the intercity services to Heuston.

LXFlyer

To be clear, what is happening is an EU funded feasibility study into what capacity expansion options exist on the Northern Line, and their cost. That feasibility study is now going to tender.

We are a long way off any public consultation at this stage, as this project is just the initial assessment. That being said, it will provide a blueprint for going forward,

I do think people seem to be putting the cart before the horse here somewhat, by making rather sweeping statements about what is and isn’t possible and massive CPO activity. None of us can say that with any certainty.

The whole point of this study is to assess the options, and report back on them, and rather than writing everything off, it might be more prescient to actually wait and see what the study actually concludes.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017646#Comment_122017646

A new line would require an even higher level of CPO or tunnelling, which would be many times more expensive than widening the existing corridor.

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017693#Comment_122017693

Is there a plan for what happens north of Malahide to allow Enterprise services to overtake, as 7 stopping services per hour at peak is more than currently exist towards Bray where Wexford trains crawl along.

Also interesting to note this infographic on Dart+ website that commuter services will retain their current stopping pattern.

https://www.dartplus.ie/S3mvc/media/DART-Coastal-North-PC2/Revised-Train-Frequency-Graphic-P04-FINAL.pdf

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017646#Comment_122017646

So your solution for removing the likes of the Enterprise service from one DART line is to move it to what is due to become another DART line? 🫤

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018395#Comment_122018395

That’s not how I understood their proposal. Leave the northern Dart line alone and build a new underground line for suburban and IC services from Heuston or Connolly to somewhere like Malahide. Digging another metro would be expensive but quad tracking will almost definitely involve not only CPOing houses but also rebuilding every station along the way with no benefit for the stations because nothing on the express lines would ever stop there.

KrisW1001

@Zebra3 No, because I said that you'd be able to run DART services on the corridor if it was upgraded to four tracks later. The idea was to build new, but plan ahead for expansion.

@loco_solo Yes, it's stupidly expensive, more so than adding passing loops onto every DART station on the Northern line, but it could be better value. The All Island review recommended a link between Western line and South Western (my guess, between Leixlip Confey and Clondalkin, which which provide Lucan with a rail station). Adding that link would leave only the Belfast service needing to terminate at Connolly… but it's only the Belfast service that interacts with DART anyway. Effectively, extra tracks means here mean you're spending a fortune to facilitate one intercity route, and at the end of it, you've no extra catchment.

The routing I was thinking of was from the existing Dunboyne station via Ashbourne, Duleek and rejoining the Nothern line at Drogheda. The cost here would be mostly build cost, not CPOs, and it's less likely to get NIMBY'd too…people in the outer suburbs are more likely to use the service once it's in place. Building this line would also make a Navan-Dublin service cheaper to build out in future.

Of course, I haven't estimated any costs, and I know it would be more expensive. but when we built the road network, we weren't afraid of new offline routes if they improved connectivity. We should have the same attitude to rail.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018509#Comment_122018509

The All Island Rail report estimates quad tracking the Northern line at 1 billion. A tunnel from Heuston to Malahide would easily top 10 billion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018395#Comment_122018395

The advantage of the South Western line is that it is being quad tracked under DART+ SW project and thus it could handle the extra traffic. The AIRR already has the proposal to route Sligo trains to this line.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122017646#Comment_122017646

The downside is that it would increase the Dublin to Belfast journey times (potentially significantly) and would thus make it less attractive to users of the Enterprise. Plus I suspect most Enterprise users much prefer to go to Connolly, then Heuston which is far less attractive destination.

As LXFlyer says we will need to wait and see the outcome of the Northern line report.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018807#Comment_122018807

The suggestion from one poster was to join the likes of the Enterprise in at Dunboyne.

Not sure how the proposal of a line from Maynooth-Leixlip area to the SW line (which I fully endorse) would be workable for bringing those services to/from Dunboyne.

KrisW1001

@bk I don't see the journey times being significantly longer. The mainline stretch would be slightly shorter than the current route. The big disadvantage of course is that Heuston is further from the city centre than Connolly is (though neither qualify as "central"), meaning most passengers will have a longer transfer to their destination, so I expect any plan like this would also eventually need the support of both LUAS Lucan and what is now called DART+ Tunnel to improve access between Heuston and the South Inner City in particular.

DART tunnels aside, tunnelling shouldn't be necessary for any of what I proposed. The West-Southwest link, plus extra tracking or passing loops on a little of the existing Dunboyne line would be necessary, and of course a major new build from there to Drogheda, but no widening or tunnelling in expensive, densely-built areas like North Dublin.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018874#Comment_122018874

You would build a Dunboyne to Maynooth area line, along with the Maynooth to SW line. So it would look something like, Drogheda to Navan, Navan to Dunboyne, Dunboyne to Maynooth and Maynooth to SW Line.

You could also skip Navan and build a new line direct from Drogheda through Dunboyne and onto SW line.

But you are correct, just plugging straight into the Dunboyne line and onto the Western line wouldn’t work. Not that I think any of that makes sense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018896#Comment_122018896

Hard disagree on your comment on Connolly not being central! It is right in the heart of the IFSC and Docklands, which is where many business travellers from Belfast are heading and it is only a few minutes walk from O’Connell St!

It doesn’t get much more central then that and vastly more central then Heuston. No one is going to be happy being dumped out in Heuston.

Also it would definitely be slower and longer route, with a longer journey time.

Plus I’m really not sure it would actually be cheaper than what the AIRR is proposing.

Zebra3

As much as I’d love to see Dunboyne to Maynooth, I’d be curious of what route it would take. Unless it goes to join the line west of Maynooth, you’d be left with just going through Carton House as the only option. Between Maynooth and Leixlip is either CH, Intel or land reserved for Intel.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019106#Comment_122019106

Straight throw the golf course. Perhaps cut and cover, so you can put the golf course back afterwards, since touching a golf course seems to be the biggest tradegy in Ireland!

Though really Kris should be laying this out as it is his idea, I think it is all a bad idea and complete non starter. No one is going to accept the Enterprise being pulled out of Connolly and dumbed out to Heuston instead!

loyatemu

If this is the thread for discussing this project, can we at least have the title corrected. It's already double track.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018807#Comment_122018807

Why do you think an IC tunnel to Malahide would be so expensive? MetroLink is about the same distance, requires the construction of numerous stations and the CPO of a handful of properties in the city centre. The only additional complexity I can think of (as a non-engineer) is ventilation for diesels but, given the timeframe, the Enterprise stock could be converted to battery hybrid units to avoid the need for that.

Disco24

Suggestion I had was double track from donabate via airport to glasnevin jct then onto Spencer Dock or connolly, 2 tracks with planned metro gauge, 2 heavy rail. This would allow belfast and cork line to access airport and free up Northern line from connolly to donabate to be just dart.

Yea it's going to bring cost up of metro huge but there's got to be synergies.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019621#Comment_122019621

The guts of 20km of tunnelling for the daily numbers on the Enterprise (including growth)?

Would it pass a CBA?

Would love it to, but it seems a massive push…

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019621#Comment_122019621

Because no one has proposed an intercity tunnel to Malahide! You need to get to Drogheda to avoid quad tracking.

The AIRR looked at the idea of a Drogheda to Dublin Airport to Heuston tunnel but it was rightfully rejected IMO. Instead they believe the East - West tunnel as a better option.

The AIRR doesn’t give a cost for this Airport to Heuston option, but it is roughly twice the length of the cross city tunnel and the cost for that per the AIRR was 5.3 Billion in 2021 prices, so probably 10 billion!

That is sort of the point, it will cost as much as Metrolink, while having a fraction of the benefit.

Metrolink is going to be very expensive but it still has an excellent CBA as it is a Metro, mass transit carrying massive number of people to work and school every day from the likes of Swords.

This idea wouldn’t carry a fraction of the number of passengers as first of all it would be for intercity service and secondly it completely avoids the city center and goes to the airport instead, which just isn’t where most people are going, they are going to the city center.

These route would be a very hard sell to the public as they would ask why are you just building an expensive route parallel to Metrolink for the same cost, but to carry less people! Folks from the Enterprise would be annoyed at being moved out of Connolly and being dumped in Hueston instead.

The AIRR instead decided to go with an East - West tunnel, which I have questions about, but does make more sense then this idea because:

• Half the tunnel length so half the cost
• Enterprise stays in Connolly
• Folks from Cork/Limerick etc. can be brought into the city center, either to the Connolly/Docklands area and potentially pass through an even more central underground station. Would be very popular and would actually improve intercity services.
• Easy one stop change to Metrolink to the airport.
• You could also route the Enterprise into this tunnel to stop at this central station too and create a proper Cork the Belfast service if you wanted.
• You could continue the trains from Cork up the Northern quad track and along a Clongriffin to Airport link if you wanted too in future.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019908#Comment_122019908

Same problem as above, you are just replicating Metrolink again and at massive cost. Much more expensive then just quad tracking the Northern line and for very little extra benefit. Would have a very poor CBA.

Like CPO’ing some houses for quad tracking isn’t that big a deal. We are CPO’ing an entire apartment building and swimming pool for Metrolink, so isn’t really a reason not to do something.

The AIRR estimates quad tracking the Northern line at 1 billion, a Metrolink length tunnel is going to be closer to 10 billion. Much easier to get a positive CBA at 1 billion then 10 billion obviously.

gjim

We need to be realistic here on spending even 1 billion on knocking 20 minutes off a service which carries 1m passenger trips per year. The northern line is effectively dedicated to DART in terms of capacity and movement patterns as it is.

Basic rough arithmetic - 1B capital spend equates to between 50 to 100 million euro per year depending on the cost of financing formula you use. That’s 50 to 100 euro per passenger trip to save 20 minutes which is a multiple of the ticket price. Forget about spending multiple billions - it would be cheaper to offer a free helicopter service between the two cities.

Even if the time saving resulted in a doubling of ridership (and I don’t see where this new demand would come from), intercity numbers just cannot justify a spend like this when there are 200 times as many commuters in the city itself and suburbs spending an hour or more commuting every day.

Sort out being able to get around the city and its environs efficiently first, then we can start thinking about tunnels and infrastructure to improve journey times for intercity passengers.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122020405#Comment_122020405

Exactly! Talking about spending billions on tunnels for intercity services, when we don't have even one Metro tunnel, is definitely putting your priorities in the completely wrong place IMO.

We need to focus first on getting Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects done first, then probably a bunch more Luas lines, maybe another Metroline or two, etc.

Even within the world of intercity travel, it isn't a priority. I don't know how we can talk about this seriously when the Enterprise isn't even hourly! When we have zero electrified intercity lines! Hell some intercity lines are still single track!

We need to focus on fixing the core intercity service first. Belfast/Galway/Limerick to hourly service, Cork to 30 minutes. Electrify the core network, double track where needed, 200km/h service, etc.

We need to get the basics right first, get the low hanging fruit done first.

markpb

I haven’t seen anyone here say that we shouldn’t do MetroLink or Bus Connects or Dart+. There’s no need to invent arguments.

There’s also no need for a hypothetical tunnel to start at Drogheda or end at Heuston and there’s no need to exclude suburban traffic from it either. Those are all arguments you’ve invented to make it sound implausible.

What I find implausible is that anyone could think quad tracking the existing line will be straightforward. If it ever happens, which I doubt, it will be far more expensive than currently predicted and face endless delays caused by all the potential CPOs, each one having to be planned, costed, executed and potentially fought in court individually. Demolishing two buildings for MetroLink will be easy in comparison.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122020405#Comment_122020405

3million people live in counties Down, Antrim, Armagh, Louth and Dublin. Assuming only 1million annual journeys on the corridor is ridiculous. That's only 3000 journeys per day.

Just to compare, Intercity services in/out of Heuston have 24000 journeys per day. I think it's safe to say there is major untapped demand there. The North and South are moving in one clear direction and that needs to be supported by proper infrastructure.

The economic potential of the corridor is enormous. Your rough CBA is wildly off.