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High cinema

  • 10-02-2014 12:04PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭


    I decided to have a 'cultural weekend' and watched Scorcese's Taxi Driver, and Stalker by Tarkovsky. I thought Taxi Driver was quite good but not the amazing film that everyone has been talking about since 1976. I'm guessing it was probably revolutionary for its time but take away the novel elements (dude turns vigilante, the you talking to me line) and you've got a fairly linear narrative of a dude turning vigilante. De Niro's performance was exceptional and I thought the film perfectly captured New York's urban decay in the 70s, the atmosphere was great, however ultimately I felt it was a bit mundane. Out of Scorcese's work I thought Goodfella's was more deserving of the accolade of an amazing film.

    Onto Stalker, I found the idea interesting, I know they had to shoot it a second time after the film prints were destroyed so they were on a tight budget, however I found the film incredibly tedious, the settings were just wilderness and decayed industrial interiors partially submerged in water. Actually the industrial scenes worked in a way as they were reminiscent of Giger paintings. However, I'm not entirely sure whether they were in the zone or a modernist interpretation of the zone which stripped it of its alien qualities substituting them with symbolic/minimalist set designs. The shots were incredibly long, lasting over minutes. I can respect the cinematography and the intention but I found it a bit meh. It just didn't really go anywhere, it was like a modernist play or something, I would have preferred at least some elements of alien activity. One review stated that the slow pace allows you to project your own thoughts into the film, however I find that problemmatic to some extent with this film, that you're distanced from the action because of a lack of it. You're no longer in the film but placed in an intellectual/philosophical mood by it but really the philosophical thoughts one might have are of the pub variety, with little rigour. I make this criticism sparingly as 2001 is an example of such a film yet I always found it really good because I think it was an example of really well made 'art film.'

    I've seen a few art films, The Visitor, Strange Colour etc and the one thing I notice about all of them is they are remarkably po-faced and slow moving wearing idiosyncratic shots on their sleeves and often with sparse dialogue. I wonder by making these signals about having a serious intent that we're led to expect them to be brilliant when they're about as good as the average popcorn flick? Just another point about shots, I think Kubrick really mastered the auteur shot, his particular shots were genuinely iconic and genius, I don't think the same for close ups of foods (eg Tarantino) or some of the shots in Taxi Driver, which were well chosen (eg the birds eye view at the end) but not necessarily inspirational.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    You're criticising art films for being po-faced and yet you use terms like high cinema and auteur shot. I think you're in your element to be honest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    2001 an art film?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,714 ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    Stalker, yes, but Taxi Driver and 2001 are not art films, so I’m not really sure what you mean by high cinema.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    2001 an art film?

    It's certainly not popcorn fodder, it's methodically paced and deliberately slow moving, doesn't spoon feed an audience as to it's intentions and there are a load of questions to be answered at the end. Brainless cinema it ain't.

    I love Taxi Driver but hate the porno sax on the soundtrack, it's awful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,917 ✭✭✭delbertgrady


    I don't think Taxi Driver is remotely mundane. I think a modern audience might be conditioned by other "vigilante" films as to how soon the action is due to kick in. I remember watching it over twenty years ago with someone who knew the gist of it, but who'd never seen it before, and - upon seeing Travis walking down the street and take a slug from his hip flask after the opening scene - took it that this was a sign that some carnage would soon follow. Which of course, it doesn't.

    The way New York is filmed in a verite style adds a realism that is lacking from most contemporary films. It has frequent stylistic elements that were almost revolutionary at the time, certainly for an American studio picture, but might seem mundane now, not least because we've had almost forty years of copycats.

    Despite the lurid subject matter, this was not an art picture, and some of the mise-en-scene was unorthodox, even by seventies standards: the Godard-inspired slow zoom and close up of the Alka Seltzer in the glass (sure, it's a steal, but it's an effective steal), the famous shot in the hallway where the camera pans away from Travis when he's on the payphone to Betsy and just lingers on the vacant corridor, the overhead sequence at the end. These are still striking moments.

    I rate it very highly. It is a film that will continue to be discovered by new generations for many years, and not solely because Tarantino namechecks it, or because the poster looks good on the wall, or because you can get a cool t-shirt with Travis on it, but because Schrader's creation encapsulates very human conditions of isolation and loneliness, and watching a film where you can empathise with the protagonist on that level alone is as valid now as it was in 1976.

    2025 Gigs and Events: Stuart Murdoch, Lyle Lovett, Stuart Murdoch, Wolf Alice, Camera Obscura, Rewind Festival, The Corrs/Imelda May/Natalie Imbruglia, Iron Maiden, Neil Young/Van Morrison, Lana Del Rey, Weezer, Sparks, The Doobie Brothers, Billie Eilish (x2), Oasis, Sharon Van Etten, The Human League, Priscilla Presley, Deacon Blue, Gillian Welch and David Rawlings (x2), Stuart Maconie, Nerina Pallot, Nicola Benedetti, Sleeper, Wolf Alice

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    krudler wrote: »
    It's certainly not popcorn fodder, it's methodically paced and deliberately slow moving, doesn't spoon feed an audience as to it's intentions and there are a load of questions to be answered at the end. Brainless cinema it ain't.

    I love Taxi Driver but hate the porno sax on the soundtrack, it's awful.

    2001 is a big budget sci fi movie, think Gravity for 1968.
    The music is amazing on taxi driver Bernard Hermann at his best and his last film soundtrack.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    2001 an art film?
    Stalker, yes, but Taxi Driver and 2001 are not art films, so I’m not really sure what you mean by high cinema.
    krudler wrote: »
    It's certainly not popcorn fodder, it's methodically paced and deliberately slow moving, doesn't spoon feed an audience as to it's intentions and there are a load of questions to be answered at the end. Brainless cinema it ain't.

    But there's a lot of crossover between 'art films' and films that are 'works of art'.

    I pulled this definition of 'art films' from Wikipedia: "An art film is "intended to be a serious artistic work, often experimental and not designed for mass appeal"; they are "made primarily for aesthetic reasons rather than commercial profit", and they contain "unconventional or highly symbolic content."

    2001 is a serious artistic work that is often experimental and which contains unconventional or highly symbolic content. But is it an 'art film'? I honestly don't care. I'm sure these terms are useful in certain contexts but they have no bearing on my approach to cinema. If I don't like a film I just don't like it, full stop. I don't give it brownie points because it's impenetrable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    2001 is a big budget sci fi movie, think Gravity for 1968.
    The music is amazing on taxi driver Bernard Hermann at his best and his last film soundtrack.

    Well yeah but 2001 isn't audience friendly popcorn fodder either.

    I like the music in Taxi Driver bar the love theme, its awful, the rest of the score is brilliant though, especially the main theme. The opening when the cab emerges from the steam with that music is fantastic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    krudler wrote: »
    Well yeah but 2001 isn't audience friendly popcorn fodder either.

    I like the music in Taxi Driver bar the love theme, its awful, the rest of the score is brilliant though, especially the main theme. The opening when the cab emerges from the steam with that music is fantastic.

    Yeah it aint excatly popcorn and it does have complex issues about birth, technology, science, space exploration.
    The book is a good read too except it's Saturn they go to instead to Jupiter, but it's turned out better that it's Jupiter because of the chances of life on europa is very likely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    2001 is a big budget sci fi movie, think Gravity for 1968.

    And The Thin Red Line and Saving Private Ryan are both big-budget WW2 movies. That's correct up to a point, but it leaves out so much.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    ThirdMan wrote: »
    And The Thin Red Line and Saving Private Ryan are both big-budget WW2 movies. That's correct up to a point, but it leaves out so much.

    It sure does.
    Private Ryan was a here is what happens in war,warts and all.
    Whereas thin red line was more about the musings of war and why we fight and Is it right to fight?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    they are remarkably po-faced
    In what way?

    To me mainstream films are a lot more po-faced whereas art films tend to be a lot looser and thus allow the viewer to interpret it for themselves. It's the opposite of pretention imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Also I kind of loathe terms like "art film" and "high cinema" etc. It suggests an elitism in the films that is rarely even there and puts very interesting and unique films in an unncessary box.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    e_e wrote: »
    In what way?

    The op is using fancy language to describe what he thinks are art house films.
    When taxi driver and 2001 are not art house films.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    The op is using fancy language to describe what he thinks are art house films.
    When taxi driver and 2001 are not art house films.
    But I think we really need to nail what defines an art film though. Those 2 are kinda borderline cases to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    e_e wrote: »
    But I think we really need to nail what defines an art film though. Those 2 are kinda borderline cases to me.

    Not made by a major studio would be a start.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Not made by a major studio would be a start.
    Yeah that can delineate some, but even then in the 60s and 70s you got a few auteurs making completely unique and adventurous works within the studio system. I think 2001 can fall under that umbrella.

    Here's some qualifiers I'd use:

    -Decidedly non-narrative.
    -No major stars.
    -No defining message for the audience.
    -More emphasis on conveying ideas through aesthetics than working off a script.
    -Raising questions rather than giving answers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    e_e wrote: »
    Yeah that can delineate some, but even then in the 60s and 70s you got a few auteurs making completely unique and adventurous works within the studio system. I think 2001 can fall under that umbrella.

    Here's some qualifiers I'd use:

    -Decidedly non-narrative.
    -No major stars.
    -No defining message for the audience.
    -More emphasis on conveying ideas through aesthetics than working off a script.
    -Raising questions rather than giving answers.


    I was gonna post points similar to them.
    U could apply all those points to any Michael Bay transformers film :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    "Slow cinema.", "Non-narrative.", "Auteur movies.", "Experimental" or "Abstract Film" are both more specific about these movies and less condescending tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    I was gonna post points similar to them.
    U could apply all those points to any Michael Bay transformers film :)
    Yeah except that the aesthetics are ****e, the questions aren't interesting and the stars a little too major. Also the failure is that it's trying to be narrative too. ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    e_e wrote: »
    Yeah except that the aesthetics are ****e, the questions aren't interesting and the stars a little too major. Also the failure is that it's trying to be narrative too. ;)

    Megan Fox, who?
    Rosie Huntingdon never acted again
    Shia Le beef stars in lars von trier movies now which could be considered art house.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,464 ✭✭✭e_e


    Point is he was major though. Hell wasn't he the highest grossing actor at one point?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    e_e wrote: »
    Point is he was major though. Hell wasn't he the highest grossing actor at one point?


    Yeah i think he was for two weeks in 2008


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    I was gonna post points similar to them.
    U could apply all those points to any Michael Bay transformers film :)

    You could argue that Bay is an auteur too :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,714 ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    Defining art film in terms of aesthetics is a futile exercise except when applied to the cinema of a particular country and era. Traditionally an arthouse film was a film that played in arthouse theatres, i.e. cinemas that specialised in foreign language, independent and repertory screenings as opposed to the mainstream cinemas showing the latest Hollywood fare. The distinction still exists somewhat but has been eroded over the years. The IFI is best example of such a cinema in Ireland. Truly independent cinemas are being wiped out or being forced to show more mainstream films to survive, as can be seen with the Lighthouse.

    I’d also be wary of redefining a 40 year old film as an art film using modern definitions of mainstream. 2001 was mainstream at the time. The fact that Kubrick was able to make films of such artistic integrity yet still have them be seen by a mainstream audience is what makes him the greatest American filmmaker IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    The fact that Kubrick was able to make films of such artistic integrity yet still have them be seen by a mainstream audience is what makes him the greatest American filmmaker IMO.

    I thought Kubrick was British until I was about 21. Can anyone tell me where I got this idea from? Or was I just uniquely misinformed?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,714 ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    He lived and worked in Britain for most of his life.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭ThirdMan


    He lived and worked in Britain for most of his life.

    Ah, I see.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 243 ✭✭Lukehandypants


    ThirdMan wrote: »
    Ah, I see.

    And all of the shining was made in London.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    He lived and worked in Britain for most of his life.

    Wasn't he terrified of flying? so made everything in the UK


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