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17-01-2014, 11:37   #1
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Prehistoric Hiberno/Serbian theory

In mountains of Serbia, in the 20th century, peasants carried with them a year stick. It was a stick with a notch for every day and a cross for major holy days, which in Serbia are all linked to major agricultural events. Every day that was gone was cut off from the stick. Very simple way to track time. But to do this effectively, you need to know:

1. when does the year start
2. how many full moons there are in a year
3. how many days there are in a moon
4. how many full extra days there are after the end of the last full moon

Once you know this, you can make the your stick calendar.

How do you determine all the above? First you realize that there is a day and a night. And that as each night passes, moon changes. Then one night moon become full. You start marking the full moons "u štap" together with the number of nights between full moons. You realize that there is a cycle. 28 or 29 days cycle of moon changing. You start calling this period moon (mesec in Serbian). At the same time you notice that the sun is changing in a longer cycle. It gets higher over the horizon and hotter and then lower and colder. So You find a level place from where you can observe the sunrise and sunset all year round. You then use a stick, a post and stick it into the ground. Then you use a rope and another stick to mark a circle around the central post. You use the center of the circle as a static observation point. You build a circular rampart using sticks, stakes to mark the circle's edge. You observe the sunrise movement, and when it stops moving in the winter you mark the point on the rampart with a really tall stick. Or you make a gate, the sun gate. You can do that in the winter solstice. Now you have your year starting point. You connect the center of the circle with the point of the solstice by drawing a line, a time line. Then from the winter solstice starting point, you count number of days in a moon, and you mark it "u štap" in a stick. You can do this by cutting notches into a stick or by placing a stick in line along the line of time. The last "u štap", full moon before the winter solstice marker, tells you how many moons there are in a year. Then you have dead days until the winter solstice. These are the days where everyone is at the sun circle, celebrating the sun turning. These are still taboo days in Serbia. You count these days as well. You can mark the whole thing with circular or linear stakes, and later stones, so you don't forget it. Then you cut your calendar stick and everyone goes away until the end of the stick (year) when they all come back to get the new calendar.

Here is one of those sun circles, Goseck in Germany:

In Serbia there is identical sun circle which is located in plateau called "Bogovo gumno":

The inside of the circle is completely cleared of stones. There are no meadow flowers growing inside of the circle which are abundant outside of the circle. The center of the circle is marked with old anthropomorphic cross:

The whole locality has never been excavated??? Just in case you think Irish archaeological localities are neglected.

By the way the name of the place tells you what the place was used for: "bogovo gumno". Bog means god. Gumno is a threshing floor, like this one:

Or this one:

Or this one in use:

and this one in use. look at the tools these people use to handle hay:

This film is from 1989 from Croatia, when people still used gumno to thresh the wheat:

Have a look at these pictures (click next...) from Croatia, showing people in traditional clothing reenacting the harvest procedure on gumno:

There are thousands of these stone circles all over the Balkans. Every village and sometimes every house had one. Sometimes they are made of stone, where stone was plentiful, but sometimes they were just a flat piece of land with a stick stack into the middle of it. Just type in gumno into google.

The central stake of "gumno" is called "stožer" in Serbian. A hay stack, or wheat stack is called "stog".

stožer = stog + ger, gar = stack + pole

these are neolithic sickles ("srp" in Serbian):

This is a "modern" one:

Compare them with the moon calendar from Serbia. The same shape. And the shape of a young moon.

Gumno (circle, sun), stožer (pole, axis), srp (crescent, moon) are the most important symbols of of astronomy, time keeping and agriculture. Is it surprising that the harvest tools are used as astronomical tools, when we know how important knowing the right time of the year is for wheat farmers? Stone circles only much later became fortifications...

Two articles related to bogovo gumno circles in Serbian with few more (unexcavated) stone circles:

Last edited by dublinviking; 17-01-2014 at 11:49.
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17-01-2014, 11:47   #2
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This is a folk riddle from Serbia:

Na hrastu, dvanaest grana
Na dvanaest grana pedeset dva gnezda,
U svakom gnezdu, po sedam jaja...
Question: "On an oak tree, twelve branches
On twelve branches, fifty two nests
In every nest seven eggs"

Answer: Year

Oak was the sacred tree of the sun and thunder.

This riddle is very similar to this passage from Rig Veda:

"The wheel of law with twelve spokes does not decay as it revolves around heaven. Oh Fire (Agni), here your 720 sons abide (360 days and 360 nights)."
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20-01-2014, 12:57   #3
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I did say i was not going to write here again, but i have something important that i really think i need to share with you guys. First to reply to bawn79. Thank you very much for posting these links. Here is one from me:

Have a look at the position of the "st John's" well inside the Dún Ailinne and the buried scull in Raffin, relative to the center of the circle. Isn't this the same angle off north? What angle is this?

Apparently Dún Ailinne was only used during spring and summer. Large bonfire was lit up in the center of Dún Ailinne, probably on summer solstice, as it is custom everywhere else in Europe, and which is still done on "St John's" day.

In 1968 a caesium magnetometer survey and a resistivity survey was undertaken that highlighted an area in the low mound, later revealed as areas of intense burning. The excavated areas revealed only minimal traces of human activity except in the area around the low mound where black soil, burnt stone, charcoal and animal bone were uncovered. The artefacts suggested intense activity in the Iron Age and/or Early Medieval period that disturbed a Neolithic occupation phase.
It was obviously ceremonial astronomical center related to the worship of the sun, and determining the summer solstice date.

look at the name of the forth: Dún Ailinne. What does it mean?

Croagh Patrick comes from the Irish Cruach Phádraig meaning "(Saint) Patrick's stack". It is known locally as "the Reek", a Hiberno-English word for a "rick" or "stack".[3] In pagan times it was known as Cruachán Aigle, being mentioned by that name in sources such as Cath Maige Tuired,[4] Buile Shuibhne,[5] The Metrical Dindshenchas,[6] and the Annals of Ulster entry for the year 1113.[7] Cruachán is simply a diminutive of cruach "stack", but it is not certain what Aigle means. It is either from the Latin loan aquila "eagle" (more usually aicile or acaile)[8] or a person's name.[6][9] In addition to its literal meaning, cruach in the pagan name may also have some connection with Crom Cruach.

Remember the rolling sun on Cruachán Aigle?

Dún Ailinne, Cruachán Aigle....Sun circle, Sun mountain...

cruach means stack. Stack. Stog in Serbian. Stog, stack, cruach has circular base. In Serbian krug is circle, kruh is bread, round baked stack of wheat. Crom Cruach was related to the harvest and ultimately bread, circular stack of wheat, krug, kruh...In Serbian word for circle is krug, but word for circular is kružan (pronounced kruzshan). Bread oven is krušna peć (pronounced krushna petj). Cruachán Aigle. Is it possible that Cruachán here means krugan, kružan, krušan meaning circular?

Croaghaun (Irish: Cruachán) is a mountain in County Mayo, Ireland. At 688 metres (2,257 ft), it has the highest sea cliffs in Ireland and Great Britain[2] as well as the third highest sea cliffs in Europe (after Hornelen, Norway and Cape Enniberg, Faroe Islands).

Croaghan Hill Hill Cruachán Donegal. Excavations or vandalisim on the ancient summit cairn of Croaghan Hill

Cross yet another fence and walk out SW across the heather for approximately 100 metres to the trig pillar set atop a small grass and heather covered mound at H2993897466 (Point F), shown on the OS map as an ancient Hill Fort and Cairn. Part of the mound has been dug out either as part of an exploratory excavation or by vandalisim. There are excellent views SE across Strabane to Bessy Bell and the Sperrins and to the N and W the hills of South Donegal.

Why are all these summits called crugan, circular? Because they have 360 degrees circular view of the horizon and the sun, the great golden, white, bright circle in the sky.

One of many solar breads from Serbia, which is today called "krsni" meaning cross, Christ bread.

Original solar "kruh", krug, circle bread baked on and under a stone. It is a familiar "celtic" solar cross. The year divided into four parts by equinoxes and solstices.

This is the calendar bread, year bread, sun bread, "god" bread as in Serbian god meaning tree ring, year, time, moment...

In parts of Scotland, the Beltane bannock is a popular custom. It's said that if you eat one on Beltane morning, you'll be guaranteed abundance for your crops and livestock. Traditionally, the bannock is made with animal fat (such as bacon grease), and it is placed in a pile of embers, on top of a stone, to cook in the fire. Once it's blackened on both sides, it can be removed, and eaten with a blend of eggs and milk. This recipe doesn't require you to build a fire, and you can use butter instead of fat.

In Serbian and in Irish Ban, Van means white, bright. In Serbian svan = s van means with whiteness, with brighteness = light. Svanuti = S Van uti = with white (light) be = to dawn, to get bright, to get white. Svanuće = Dawn

In Serbian mater is the equivalent of the English word mother or Sanskrit Matr.

Materisvan = Materi svan = the mother of light - the giver of birth to light, the one who produced light, who gives life. This producer of light is fire, Agni, both celestial, sun fire, and terrestrial, human fire, and so Matarisvan is Agni. But also the producer of fire is the producer of light by extension. So Matarisvan is the heavenly swastika, Slavic Svarog, that produces the fire of the sun. Matarisvan is also the lightning, the fire bird (žar ptica), the East Slavic (Russian) Bird Mater sva, that brought the fire from heavens to Earth and gave it to people....And in the end Matarisvan is the man who produced fire using terrestrial swastika, fire drill. In some vedic translations Matarisvan is called MItariswan or Mitarisvan. In Serbian Dar is a present, dariti, darivati is to give present. Mi means to me. Svan means light. So Mitarisvan = Mi dari svan = the one who gives me light (as present). So the meaning of the name stays unchanged.

Bannok is the sun, light bread, the equivalent of the solar bread in Serbia. It was made and eaten on Beltane, the start of summer.

Croghan Hill is the remains of an extinct volcano [1] of the Carboniferous period and rises from the Bog of Allen in the midlands of Ireland in County Offaly. Though only 234 m high[1] it commands extensive views of the surrounding midland counties, across the flat, low-lying expanse of the Bog of Allen. The village of Croghan is located on the southern slope of the hill.

The mound at the summit is thought to be a bronze age burial place. It is believed that a Bishop MacCaille had his church there and lived around the time of St Patrick in the fifth century. The area also has strong associations with St. Bridget, who is said to have been born near Croghan hill. In pre-Christian times, Brigid as Brig, Bree or Bri was also associated with the Hill, and the inside believed to be a magic underworld called Bri Ele.[2] Seen from Uisnech, the pointed summit coincides with the midwinter sunrise.

This is the picture of Croghan hill (circular, of circles) hill:

Does anyone have any doubts that Croghan, Cruachán comes from krugan, circular?

The Hill of Uisneach or Ushnagh (Irish: Uisneach or Cnoc Uisnigh)[1] is an ancient ceremonial site in the Barony of Rathconrath in County Westmeath, Ireland (National Monument Number 155).[2] In Irish mythology it is the centre of Ireland...In Irish mythology, the Ail na Míreann or "stone of divisions" was deemed to be the omphalos or mystical navel of Ireland and to have marked the meeting point of the borders of Leinster, Munster, Connacht, Ulster and Meath. Tradition tells that Bealtaine fires were lit and Druidical ceremonies held on the hill. In the Lebor Gabála Érenn (Book of the Takings of Ireland), the Nemedian Druid Mide lit the first Bealtaine fire there. ...

This is the center of the solar cult. Stožer, stog ger, the axes of heaven...

Beltane or Beltain /ˈbɛlteɪn/ (also Beltine or Beltaine)[1] is the Gaelic May Day festival. Most commonly it is held on 30 April–1 May, or halfway between the spring equinox and the summer solstice. It was observed in Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man. In Irish it is Bealtaine ([ˈbʲal̪ˠt̪ˠənʲə]), in Scottish Gaelic Bealltainn ([ˈpjaul̪ˠt̪ˠɪɲ]) and in Manx Gaelic Boaltinn or Boaldyn. It is one of the four Gaelic seasonal festivals; along with Samhain, Imbolc and Lughnasadh....
In Irish Gaelic, the festival is usually called Lá Bealtaine ("day of Beltane") while the month of May is Mí Bhealtaine ("month of Beltane"). In Scottish Gaelic, the month is called (An) Cèitean or a' Mhàigh, and the festival is Latha Bealltainn. Sometimes the older Scottish Gaelic spelling Bealltuinn is used. The word Céitean comes from Céad Shamhain, an old alternative name for the festival.
In modern Scottish Gaelic, Latha Buidhe Bealltainn or Là Buidhe Bealltainn ("the yellow day of Beltane") is used to describe the first day of May. This term Lá Buidhe Bealtaine is also used in Irish and is translated as "Bright May Day". In Ireland it is referred to in a common folk tale as Luan Lae Bealtaine; the first day of the week (Monday/Luan) is added to emphasize the first day of summer....
Since the early 20th century it has been commonly accepted that Old Irish Beltaine is derived from a Common Celtic *belo-te(p)niâ, meaning "bright fire". The element *belo- might be cognate with the English word bale (as in 'bale-fire') meaning 'white' or 'shining'; compare Old English bael, and Lithuanian/Latvian baltas/balts, found in the name of the Baltic; in Slavic languages byelo or beloye also means 'white', as in Беларусь (White Russia or Belarus) or Бе́лое мо́ре (White Sea).
In Ó Duinnín's Irish dictionary (1904), Beltane is referred to as Céadamh(ain) which it explains is short for Céad-shamh(ain) meaning "first (of) summer". The dictionary also states that Dia Céadamhan is May Day and Mí Céadamhan is the month of May.

But was Beltane, the day when bonfires are lit and bannok sun bread is made in them and eaten, always the first of may or was it originally celebrated on the summer solstice day? Bel comes from Serbian and means white, the same way ban means white. Tinja also comes from serbian and means kindling fire.

Beltane could be bel tinja mean white, bright fire. But there is another possibility. I already talked about interchangeability of b and v sounds. You can see it in ban, van. Also sounds t and d are interchangeable. In Serbian Bel means white, but Vel means great, big, long. So beltane could be veldan meaning vel + dan = great, big, long + day. Which day is the great day? The summer solstice, the longest day of the year.

Now if Cruachán in Cruachán Aigle is circular, what is then Aigle in Cruachán Aigle and what is Ailinne in Dún Ailinne?

I believe that these words both contain old root word Ai related to white, bright, sun, circle, stone, high, sky. This root is the root of words such as sky and high.

Long before St Patrick’s visit in 441, the Reek was known by its ancient name of Cruachán Aigli.The area around the mountain was known in Irish as ‘Aigli’.The village of Murrisk was referred to as ‘Muiresc Aigli’...
I believe that the word Aigle is ai + gle, gli = ai + look, observe (in Serbian). Basically Cruachán Aigle means the place marked with stone where i have circular view of the sky and can observe the sun, light and calculate time, calendar.

Dún Ailinne means circle of the sky, sun, time, calendar. It comes from ai + linn:

Have a look at these words from these two old Irish dictionaries and let me know what you think. Are we onto something here?

ai - sheep, swan (white things)
ailbh, -e, -eacha, f., a flock.
ailbhín, g. id., pl. -idhe, m., a small flock; cf., ailbhín caorach, a small flock of sheep; see deilbhín and eilbhín. ailt - stately, high; Irish ailt, Latin altus, àilt (H.S.D.).
áigh, a., valiant, victorious, fateful (prop. gs. of ágh, valour, fate); cf., Oscar Áigh, the valorous Oscar. (on top, the highest)aicme, g. id., pl. -eacha, f., a sort or kind, a class, a race, a tribe.
aicne, g. aicionta, f., nature; a race or tribe (a form of aicme).
ail, aileadh, ailt - a mark, impression, Irish oil, mark (O'R), Middle and Early Irish aile, fence, boundary (Meyer). A t stem: oiledaib, *al-et.
++ail - rock, Irish and Old Irish ail, *alek-, allied to German fels; See further under mac-talla.
aill, -e, pl. id., and ailltreacha (Aran), f., a cliff, a rock; cf., an Áill, the "Naul" Co. Dublin (also faill, f., bárr na faille, the top of the cliff).
ailp, -e, pl. alpa, ailpeacha, f., a protuberance, a huge lump, a high mountain; a stout person; a bite, a mouthful; a bite of a vicious dog or horseaibhle, g. id., pl. -eacha, f., a flying spark of fire.
aibhleog, -oige, -oga, f., a piece of burning fuel, a burning sod of turf; dóigheadh 'na aibhleoig
í, she was burned to a cinder (Don.); a snow-flake. áibhe, interj., ave! hail! (ai + bhe, be = first + be, high + be)aibheil - huge (M`E.). See adhbhal. (ai + bheil = high + is)
aibheis - boasting; aibhsich, esaggerate; Irish aibhseach, boasting: from aibheis? Another form of aibhsich is aillsich. (ai + bheis = high + be)
aidhbhéileach, -lighe, a., very great, wondrous; bragging, boasting.
aidhbhéileacht, -a, f., a boasting, wonder; hugeness, enormity.
aibhist - an old ruin (Stew.): (ai + bhist = high, sky + be + stand)
aibhistear - the Devil; another form of abharsair, q.v. (old sun god which became devil)
aillse, g. id., pl. -acha, f., a fairy, any diminutive creature, a chafer, worm: cf., "ní lugha orm aillseacha ciaróg ná thú."
aibhse - spectre, so Irish: See taibhse.
aice - proximity, Irish aice; See taic.(close to god, sun, high up) aice,immediate vicinity, proximity; i n-a aice, close by him; i n-aice an bhaile, near the
village; i n-aice liom, i m'aice, beside me; also i n-aice dam, near me (M.); i n-aice le Máigh, beside the Mague; as aice an tighe, from the vicinity of the house; i n-aice na gcoillte, beside
the woods; capall aice, a horse led by one's side; is forus fuineadh i n-aice na mine, it is easy to bake when one has meal at hand.
aig - at, Irish ag, Old Irish oc; for root, See agus. (at the top, high, near the sky)
ailbheag - ring; See failbhe.
ailbhinn - flint, precipice; from ++ail, rock.
àile - air, scent, Early Irish aél, ahél; Welsh avel, Cornish, Breton, awel, wind; Greek @Ga@'élla (St. Lec.), storm; *avel-, root ave, ve, wind; Latin au-ra, Greek @Ga@'c/r, English air.
ailleort - high-rocked; from ++ail, rock; See mac-talla.
aill-bhruachach, -aighe, a., having steep or rocky brinks.
ailleadóir, -óra, -óiridhe, m., a cliff-climber.
ailm - the letter A, elm; Irish ailm, palm (fir?) tree, letter A; borrowed from Latin ulmus, Norse álmr, English elm.
aimsir - time, so Irish; Old Irish amser, Welsh amser, Breton amzer, possibly a Celtic ammesserâ; either a compound of am, time (ammensîrâ, from sîr, long?), or amb-mensura, root mens, measure, Latin mensus, English measure. Ascoli and Stokes give the Celtic as ád-messera, from ad-mensura.
àin - heat (Dict.), light (H.M`Lean), Old Irish áne, fulgor, from án, splendidus, latter a Celtic a@-no-s; Gothic fôn, fire (from pân); Prussian panno. Stokes suggests rather *agno-s, allied to Latin ignis, Sanskrit agní, fire.
ainbhtheach - stormy, Middle Irish ainbthech, *an-feth-ech, Gaelic rott feth, breeze, from vet, English weather, Latin ventus, etc. See ++anfadh.

aiceacht (aith-cheacht), -a, f., a lesson; guidance. See ceacht
aidheam - joyous carol:
aidich - confess, Irish admhuighim, Old Irish addaimim, Welsh addef: ad-dam-; root dam; Latin domo, English tame.
aifrionn - mass, so Irish, Early Irish oifrend, Welsh offeren; from Latin offerendum (English offer).
aigeannach - spirited, Early Irish aignech; See aigneadh. Irish aigeanta, meditative.
aighear - mirth, Manx aigher; *ati-gar-; See gàirdeachas for root. Yet Irish aiereach, merry, aerial, from aier, air, from Latin aer, makes the matter doubtful. Irish aerach (Hyde), merry, airy. Evidently the Gaelic is borrowed from the Latin
aigne, aigneadh - mind, so Irish, Old Irish, aicned: ád-gn-eto-, root gna@-, know, Greek @Ggignw/skw, English know. Stokes refers it to the root of ++aicme, as he gives it. Ascoli makes the root cen, as in cineal. The Gaelic g is against any root with c.

àil - will; better àill, q.v.
àill - desire, so Irish, Old Irish áil, Welsh ewyll, Breton ioul, Celtic avillo-; root av, desire, Latin aveo, English avidity. áil, pleasant, *pagli, English fair ( St. Bez.@+20 24). (top, climax)
áilgheas, -a, m., great pleasure or desire.
áilgheasach, -aighe, a., full of desire, eager, zealous. (basically i have a tall, high di*k, i have a hard on )àille - beauty, Early Irish álde, for álnde; See àlainn.
áilleacht, -a, f., beauty, loveliness (also áilneacht).
àilleas, àilgheas - will, desire; Irish áilgheas, Early Irish ailges, áilgidim, I desire; from áil and geas, request, q.v.
àilleagan - darling, so Irish; from àille, q.v.

áilleagán, -áin, pl. id., m., a toy, gewgaw, frippery; áilleagán inntreach, a merry-go-round (somet. áilleachán). (from ai + lleagán = top, pinacle, same spot + lays, stands = what stands on top. Legati means lay down in Serbian)
áilleagánacht, -a, f., idling, lolling about (Mayo). (laying, sitting, standing in the same spot, not moving)

glinn - pretty, (Strathspey and Lochbroom Dialects for grinn), Irish glinn, bright; English glint, gleam, glance.
glé, indec. a., clear, bright, pure, perfect; open, plain, manifest.
glé- an intensive prefix, very, enough, truly, perfect (chiefly Sc.).
gléacht, -a, f., brightness, clearness.
gléaghlan, -aine, a., pure, clean,
gléamhaise, g. id., f., neatness, beauty.
gléamhaiseach, -sighe, a., beautiful. glé-gheal, -ghile, a., very bright, clear, white, beautiful (also gléigeal and glégeal).
gléghileacht, -a, f., pureness, whiteness. gléineach, -nighe, a., clear, plain, distinct; chím go gléineach é, I see it distinctly.
gléir, -e, a., neat, clean, fair, clear, bright.
gléithe, g. id., f., purity, cleanness, neatness.
glé-mhian, f., clear intellect. glinn, -e, a., pure, clear; manifest, plain, visible; also sharp, keen, shrewd, clear-sighted; duine
glinn, a sharp or shrewd man; glinn-bhreathnuightheach, clear or sharp-sighted.
glinn, -e, -te, f., the firmament, the heavens; d'eiteall sé in nglinntibh an aeir, it flew into the air;
the tolling of a bell (O'N.).
glinn, -e, -idhe, f., the frame on which a fishing or measuring line is folded; nom. also glinne,
and glionnda in Sligo.
glinneamhain, -mhna, f., act of investigating, examining closely; gazing on fixedly; manifesting;
glinnim, I aim (B.).

linn, g. linne, pl. linnte, linntidhe, f. (definite) time, period, generation, course; ré linn, at the
time of, during the lifetime of; le n-a linn, in his time; le n-a linn sin, at that time, just then; le
linn na huaire sin, during the course of that time.

Last edited by dublinviking; 20-01-2014 at 13:03.
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20-01-2014, 13:09   #4
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In recent years Anthony Murphy and
Richard Moore wrote a book titled, Island
of the Setting Sun: In Search of Ireland’s Ancient
Astronomers. Their theory is that Croagh
Patrick is part of an ancient cosmological
alignment, stretching 135m (217km) from
the Hill of Slane, in the east, to Croagh
Patrick in the west, linking some of the most
sacred sites associated with St Patrick.The
authors explore the idea that St Patrick
followed a ‘sacred equinox journey’. Using
Google Earth, they found that the equinox
line extends from Millmount, Drogheda,
County Louth, to Slane and aligns west with
Croagh Patrick. It includes the CruachanAí
complex in Roscommon (home of
legendary Queen Medb and inauguration
and burial site of the ancient kings of
Connacht) and follows the ancient pilgrim
road of Tóchar Phádraig, which passes by
the Rock of Boheh, mentioned below. They
stated that ‘evidence is emerging that
signicant archaeological sites dating from
deep in prehistory are linked – not just
through mythology, archaeology and
cosmology – but through an arrangement of
complex, and, in some cases, astonishing

CruachanAí = Cruachan + Aí = circle of heaven = calendar

Rathcroghan (Irish: Ráth Cruachan, meaning "ringfort of Cruachan") is a complex of archaeological sites near Tulsk in County Roscommon, Ireland. It is identified as the site of Cruachan, the traditional capital of the Connachta. While it is debatable whether this was a place of residence, it had huge importance as a cemetery and also hosted some of the main ritual gatherings in ancient times. It is an important site in Irish mythology, in particular as the seat of Ailill and Medb, king and queen of the Connachta in the Ulster Cycle. It is the setting for the opening section of the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Táin Bó Flidhais.

Last edited by dublinviking; 20-01-2014 at 13:14.
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20-01-2014, 14:06   #5
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Originally Posted by dublinviking View Post

This is the picture of Croghan hill (circular, of circles) hill:
This is Rathra rather than Croghan hill. Its far to the east of the Rathcroghan complex but is thought to be related.

Dublinviking - you have plenty of material but I suppose in one sound bite what are you trying to say? (I'm interested in your posts but I suppose what are you trying to show us?)
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20-01-2014, 14:52   #6
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Thanks for pointing this out. Here is the picture of Rathcroghan main mound.

What I am trying to tell you guys is that there are several genetic, cultural and linguistic layers in Ireland and in Serbia. One of them is R1a and then there is I1 + I2 layer. These layers can be decoded through Serbian and Irish parallels.

From the archeo astronomy point of view, if you want to understand the ancient astronomical observatories, you need to understand that they are tightly linked to agriculture and people who brought it to Ireland. And they came from the Balkans (to which they came from somewhere else or originated there, but that is not important for the discussion). They came to Ireland and brought their agriculture, astronomy and language. Serbs and Irish preserved some of those oldest cultural traits in Europe and we have a chance to dig them out. The example is word Cruach, Cruachán which can only be fully understood through Serbian, because this is where you find the link between the circle, bread and calendar. And then this opens the door for understanding a lot of things in Irish mythology.

For instance if ai means high who was Ailill, the king of Rathcroghan? Sun? Illi is one of the old names of god.

Ēl is called again and again Tôru ‘Ēl ("Bull Ēl" or "the bull God"). He is bātnyu binwāti ("Creator of creatures"), ’abū banī ’ili ("father of the Gods")

Jesus Cries Out to the Father

Matthew 27:46 (also Mark 15:34)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” (NKJV)
In the darkest hours of his suffering, Jesus cried out the opening words of Psalm 22. And although much has been suggested regarding the meaning of this phrase, it was quite apparent the agony Christ felt as he expressed separation from God. Here we see the Father turning way from the Son as Jesus bore the full weight of our sin.

By the time of Christ the Savior Ancient Hebrew, in which the Law and the majority of the rest books of the Old Testament are written, was already a dead language. The Jewish population of Palestine was speaking the language, common for that time for the Semitic tribes of Front Asia — Aramaic. Christ the Savior spoke that language as well. Those little worlds of Christ, which the Evangelists cite literally: "Talitha cumi" (Mark 5:41), "Abba," when the Lord addressed God the Father (Mark 5:41), the mortal howl of the Lord on the cross: "Eloi, Eloi, lama Sabachtani" (Mark 15:34) — these Aramaic words (in the Gospel of Mathew the words "Eloi, Eloi" — My God, My God) — are given in Ancient Hebrew "Ili, Ili," but the second part in both the Gospels is given in Aramaic.

Who is this Ili Eli god? Ilios - sun, crom dubh, hromi daba, dabog, dagda...But where does Ilios come from? AiLios - The fairy circle in the sky.

Now the question is: how the hell is all this possible? Because people who gave us Illios the sun god of the heavenly circle, once lived in the Balkans, and then came to Ireland, or once lived in Ireland and then came to the Balkans. Or most likely, once lived in the Balkans, went to Ireland then came back to the Balkans within the space of few thousand years.

Look at the word Alba, Alban, Albania, Alps? Where do they come from? From the most ancient Serbo - Irish = European language.

Ai - high
Ail (Ai + le) - tall, high rock, mountain top
Ba, Va - white color, shiny
Ban, Van - who, what is white, shiny
Ail + Ban - white mountain tops

Alba - Scotland full of snowy mountain tops
Albania - full of snowy mountain tops
Alps (Alpen) - full of snowy mountain tops

In Latin Alba means white too:

From Proto-Italic *alβos, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂élbʰos, *álbʰos, *albʰós (“white”). Cognates include Umbrian (alfu), Ancient Greek ἀλφός (alphos, “whiteness, white leprosy”), Hittite (alpas, “cloud”) and Middle Welsh elbid (“world”).

Look at the Hittite (alpas, “cloud”) from high (ai) white (ba, pa). Remember the direct cultural link between Ireland, Serbia and Hitties? Remember Mushki, opanak, the king with goat's ears? This language is older than Hittite empire...

And then it is not surprising that in Latin the word Albus has no root. It can not be broken like it can in Irish. Which means it is older than Latin and was brought into Latin from some other language, which eventually arrived to Ireland, or originated from Ireland....If you read early Roman history, Italy was a mix of people and languages. Latin is a bastard language.

I am having fun doing it on my own, but every time someone joins in, like you did with the posts about Dún Ailinne, he brings something in that I did not see, or think about, and that is great help. I have been wrecking my brain for months about the meaning of Aigle in Cruachán Aigle. And then you sent the texts about Dún Ailinne and everything just clicked together. For that i am very grateful.

I hope this is a clear enough answer.

Last edited by dublinviking; 20-01-2014 at 16:26.
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20-01-2014, 15:16   #7
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people who lived in the Balkans before Rome even existed, in south of Italy when Rome was being created, and who, according to some historians came to Ireland and England, were Illyrians, whose center was in I2 teritory of the Balkans. They were great ship builders, and pirates. They fought Rome for a long time but then became the official Roman navy. Their boats are predecessors of the Viking boats....One funny thing about them is that there is a great confusion where they stop and where Celts start...
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20-01-2014, 20:16   #8
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I have a vague memory of the term Croghan/Croagh being associated with a loaf of bread before, but I can't find anything to support it.

This might be of some interest though.

'The primary meaning of cruach is a rick or stack, such as of corn or hay;
but in an extended sense, it is applied to hills, especially those presenting a round, stacked, or piled up appearance;
Welsh crug, a heap; Cornish cruc.
It is used pretty extensively as a local term, generally in the forms
Croagh or Crogh; and the diminutive Croghán is still more common,
giving names to numerous mountains, townlands, and parishes, called Croaghan, Croaghaun, Croghan and Crohane, all originally applied to a round shaped hill.'
Joyce, P.W. 1910. The Origin and History of Irish Names of Places, Vol. 1. Dublin. pp. 388
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20-01-2014, 20:40   #9
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So just trying to take from the above

Is the argument that a large group of Serbians brought their astronomy, agriculture and language to Ireland?

What date are you proposing this happened?

Does this not ignore all the megalithic sites in Greece, Italy, Malta, France, Spain & Portugal in between?
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20-01-2014, 20:57   #10
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k they where some kind of isolated celtic ppl with ringofts yyaya more achaeolgy
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20-01-2014, 22:17   #11
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In the spirit of good sportsmanship,
Have any Universities seriously looked into this?
Also, how would Warren Field,Crathes fit into this theory, age wise?
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21-01-2014, 02:28   #12
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Originally Posted by dublinviking View Post

Thanks for pointing this out. Here is the picture of Rathcroghan main mound.

What I am trying to tell you guys is that there are several genetic, cultural and linguistic layers in Ireland and in Serbia. One of them is R1a and then there is I1 + I2 layer. These layers can be decoded through Serbian and Irish parallels.
How so? I2 is 15,000 years old or so and has many subgroups.
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21-01-2014, 11:58   #13
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Is the argument that a large group of Serbians brought their astronomy, agriculture and language to Ireland?
No. The arguments is that the large group of R1a, or I2 early megalithic farmers came from the Balkans up north and ended up in Ireland where they also brought their astronomy and their language. There were many other migrations from central Europe to the Atlantic coast before and later. But this is the one that brought megalithic krug (circle) monuments to Ireland. This language of these early agriculturalists is preserved in oldest layers of Serbian and Irish and other European languages, but i just happened to start discovering it through intersections of Irish and Serbian. One of the reason why Ireland and Britain have preserved some of the oldest traits of this old language, is because they have some of the oldest R1a and I2 populations in the world, which has been isolated from the center of the culture for millenniums, as so stayed conservative.

You can call these people Serbs, or Irish, they are equally both.

Have any Universities seriously looked into this?
No. This is why i invited every university professor, every academic i could get the contact details from to my "Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture" thread.

I was hoping that people will become interested and will start to seriously look into these things. And exchange their knowledge. But maybe i am too optimistic. Old ideas such as Serbs are only Slavic, Irish are only Celtic and before them aliens lived in their lands...are too entrenched, and too many academics made their careers on elaborating these same outdated ideas. We see how mixed people are, we see how different genetic types are of different origin and age. Why is it so crazy to imagine that ancient tribes, people would be linked to particular genes? This is what tribe is, a patriarchal family, so they have to have the same genes. And why is it so impossible that genes are linked to language and culture? Look at distribution of Indo European languages and distribution of R1a and I2 haplogroups. So new tribe comes in, and brings new genes and new language and new culture. But they don't just wipe out the old population, They mixed with them, and exchanged and preserved not just genes, but language, culture...So you get layers...In Irish you have layers of R1a, I2, I2, E1b genes and languages and cultures buried under R1b avalanche. What I am doing is linguistic archaeology. Why do you think you don't know what the names of Irish old gods mean? Because they were not gaelic gods. They were gods of the population which lived in Ireland before gaels arrived. They named their gods using their own language, and in that language the gods names mean something. Like Vid means site, and lite, and knowledge in Serbian, so God Vid, Svetovid means the one who sees everything, who gives site, light to everything, The sun. What is the meaning of the name Lugh, Balor, Beli, Bran, Gobhan...There is no clear etymology in Irish. But there is in Serbian. How is this possible? Because the population that lived in Ireland originally spoke language of R1a and I2 people. And they named their gods using those languages. They also named all the sacred place names accordingly. Then the R1b people arrived, brought their own language, their own culture and mythology. They mixed with the old population, eventually took over, and replaced the old language with the new and the old culture with the new, one which was mixture of the old R1a + I2 and new R1b language and culture. In this new language, the meaning of the names of gods and holy places was forgotten. But these R1b invaders who took over Ireland also took over Serbia. So we have huge R1b cultural influence in Serbia as well. There is a possibility the royal Serbs of the medieval Nemanjic dynasty are actually R1b, from the Carpathian mountains, where the R1b still prevails. The area is known as "old Serbia". Serbian medieval kings called themselves kings of "Племена Цимери" "plemena cimeri" pronounced "plemena tsimeri" meaning the tribe of cimbri, cimru, Celts...Here are royal standards of Nemanjic dinasty from the 13th century.

They came from the "Old Serbia" in the Carpathian mountains on the border between Serbia and Bulgaria.

Welsh (Cymraeg or y Gymraeg, pronounced [kəmˈrɑːɨɡ, ə ɡəmˈrɑːɨɡ]) is a member of the Brythonic branch of the Celtic languages spoken natively in Wales, by some along the Welsh border in England, and in Y Wladfa (the Welsh colony in Chubut Province, Argentina).[9] Historically it has also been known in English as "the British tongue",[10] "Cambrian",[11] "Cambric"[12] and "Cymric".[13]

The Welsh people (Welsh: Cymry) are an ethnic group and nation indigenous to Wales and associated with the Welsh language...
The process whereby the indigenous population of 'Wales' came to think of themselves as Welsh is not clear. There is plenty of evidence of the use of the term Brythoniaid (Britons); by contrast, the earliest use of the word Kymry (referring not to the people but to the land—and possibly to northern Britain in addition to modern day territory of Wales) is found in a poem dated to about 633. The name of the region in northern England now known as Cumbria is derived from the same root.[32] Only gradually did Cymru (the land) and Cymry (the people) come to supplant Brython. Although the Welsh language was certainly used at the time, Gwyn A. Williams argues that even at the time of the erection of Offa's Dyke, the people to its west saw themselves as Roman, citing the number of Latin inscriptions still being made into the 8th century.[33] However, it is unclear whether such inscriptions reveal a general or normative use of Latin as a marker of identity or its selective use by the early Christian Church.
The word Cymry is believed to be derived from the Brythonic combrogi, meaning fellow-countrymen,[29] and thus Cymru carries a sense of "land of fellow-countrymen", "our country"—and, of course, notions of fraternity. The name "Wales", however, comes from the Germanic walha, a term meaning "stranger" or "foreigner" which was applied particularly to peoples who had been Romanised.[34]

In Serbian word "kum" means blood brother, the god father. He is the most important person in your life, he is assigned to you at birth, to guide you through this life, but more importantly to guide you through the after life. His most important role is to help you cross "kumova slama", blood brother's hay, milky way, the Styx river... The mountain people, the shepherds, are called Vlah, but that is also a name which was used for Serbs in medieval time by the Turks and the Catholic church. So Serbs and Vlahs were originally probably the same, non Slavic, R1b population which came from the Carpathian mountains and took control of Slavic and pre Slavic population of Serbia in early medieval time. That mix later became known as Serbs. Serbs just means the best fighters. This is from the first page of the Vinca thread:

Saor in Irish means free.
Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.


touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitrós, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfónos, slaughter, @Gqeínw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.

So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

Serbs were also known as Serboi. This basically means the best fighters, the free fighters.

Have a look at this:

The Boii (Latin plural, singular Boius; Greek Βόϊοι) were a Gallic tribe of the later Iron Age, attested at various times in Cisalpine Gaul (northern Italy), Pannonia (Hungary and its western neighbours), in and around Bohemia (after whom the region is named), and Transalpine Gaul. In addition the archaeological evidence indicates that in the 2nd century BC Celts expanded from Bohemia through the Kłodzko Valley into Silesia, now part of Poland.[1]
They first appear in history in connection with the Gallic invasion of north Italy, 390 BC, when they made the Etruscan city of Felsina their new capital, Bononia (Bologna). After a series of wars they were decisively beaten by the Romans in a battle near Mutina (Modena) and their territory became part of the Roman province of Cisalpine Gaul. According to Strabo, writing two centuries after the events, rather than being destroyed by the Romans like their Celtic neighbours,
Do you see the name of the Boi capital: Bononia (Bologna). Remember Ban, Van meaning white in Serbian and Irish and Bel , Beo meaning white in Serbian and Welsh? Basically the name of the city is White City, Beli Grad, Beograd, Belgrade. The Balkan territory of the Serbs is littered with Belgrad, Beograd place names. Capital of Serbia is Beograd. Panonian plane is actually Banonian plane, from ban + on + je, meaning white he is, which gives Panonia the meaning the plane of white people.

This is what Wiki says about the etymology of the name Boii:

From all the different names of the same Celtic people in literature and inscriptions it is possible to abstract a continental Celtic segment, boio-.[3] There are two major derivations of this segment, both presupposing that it belongs to the family of Indo-European languages: from 'cow' and from 'warrior.' The Boii would thus be either "the herding people" or "the warrior people."
The "cow" derivation depends most immediately on the Old Irish legal term for "outsider:" amboue, from proto-Celtic *ambouios, "not a cattle owner."[4] In a reference to the first known historical Boii, Polybius relates[5] that their wealth consisted of cattle and gold, that they depended on agriculture and war, and that a man's status depended on the number of associates and assistants he had. The latter were presumably the *ambouii, as opposed to the man of status, who was *bouvios, a cattle owner, and the *bouii were originally a class, "the cattle owners."

The "warrior" derivation was adopted by the linguist Julius Pokorny, who presented it as being from Indo-European *bhei(ə)-, *bhī-, "hit;" however, not finding any Celtic names close to it (except for the Boii), he adduces examples somewhat more widely from originals further back in time: phohiio-s-, a Venetic personal name; Boioi, an Illyrian tribe; Boiōtoi, a Greek tribal name ("the Boeotians") and a few others.[6] Boii would be from the o-grade of *bhei-, which is *bhoi-. Such a connection is possible if the original form of Boii belonged to a tribe of Proto-Indo-European speakers long before the time of the historic Boii. The Celtic tribe of central Europe must in that case be a final daughter population of a linguistically diversifying ancestor tribe.
The same wider connections can be hypothesized for the "cow" derivation: the Boeotians have been known for well over a century as a people of kine, which might have been parallel to the meaning of Italy as a "land of calves." Indo-European reconstructions can be made using *gʷou- "cow" as a basis, such as *gʷowjeh³s.[7]
Contemporary derived words include Boiorix ("king of the Boii", one of the chieftains of the Cimbri) and Boiodurum ("gate/fort of the Boii", modern Passau) in Germany. Their memory also survives in the modern regional names of Bohemia (Boiohaemum), a mixed-language form from boio- and Proto-Germanic *haimaz, "home": "home of the Boii," and 'Bayern', Bavaria, which is derived from the Germanic Baiovarii tribe (Germ. *baio-warioz: the first component is most plausibly explained as a Germanic version of Boii; the second part is a common formational morpheme of Germanic tribal names, meaning 'dwellers', as in Anglo-Saxon -ware);[note 1] this combination "Boii-dwellers" may have meant "those who dwell where the Boii formerly dwelt".
There is no contradiction here, if you look at Irish and Serbian.

Bo, Vo is cow, bull, name based on the sound of the cattle
Ba is sheep (reconstructed old name based on the sound of sheep)
Bo means stab, like with a horn of a bull, or a spear
Bosti - to stab
Boj, Voj - battle
bijnik, Vojnik - solder

So Boji could be, and probably were both cattle herders and solders. The agricultural people re linked to the land. They have to stay on it all year round, or their crops will fail. Shepherds are not linked to the land. Actually they are forced to migrate following their herds. This makes shepherds predisposed to be solders. And we have exactly that in Serbia.

So Serboi just means the best boi, the best solders, the aristocracy of the central European "Celts", "the Celtic tribe of central Europe which must be a final daughter population of a linguistically diversifying ancestor tribe..."

But boi could also come from Beo, which means the same as Ban, white. Maybe boi comes from Beoja singular meaning beo + ja = white + i am and Beoji plural meaning beo + ji = white + you are. I believe that these terms are also linked, because bo, ba, be, the sound of a milk producing cattle as well as crying ba(by) is associated with milk, which is white. So ba, be became root words for Ban, Van, Beo, Bel all meaning white. When Afroasiatic population invade Europe, they encountered white people in today's Greece. The land was known as Boeotia = Beo + ti + ja = white + you + country, or Boj + ti + ja = Fighter + you + country, or Bo + ti + ja = cattle, sheep + you + country. All three etymologies are derived from the same root coming from the sound that cattle, sheep make.

This is what Wiki says about Boeotia:

Boeotia was one of the earliest inhabited regions in prehistoric Greece.[citation needed] Many Greek ancient legends, including a number related to the aboriginal population, originate in this region. The Muses of Mount Helicon, the myths of Oedipus and the sphinx, of Dionysos and Semele, of Amphion and Antiope, the myth of King Kadmus as bringer of the alphabet, the mythic king Ogyges related to the first mentioned great deluge, and many other legends became part of the Greek culture. The older myths took their final form during the Mycenean age (1600–1200 BC) when the Mycenean Greeks established themselves in Boeotia and the city of Thebes became an important centre. Many of these legends are related to the myths of Argos in southern Greece which is close to Mycenae, the most powerful Mycenean kingdom. Some of them indicate connections with Phoenicia, where the Mycenean Greeks and later the Euboean Greeks established trading posts.
Hesiod, the ancient poet of Theogony who included many legends of the first Greek cosmogony and in the genealogy of the gods, was born in Boeotia. Later Pindar, the great Greek poet born in Thebes, was influenced by an older religion different from the Olympic pantheon. In Lebadea was the ancient oracular shrine of Trophonius, related to the old chthonic religion. Many of these legends were used as themes by the tragic Greek poets, in their masterpieces Oedipus the King, Antigone, Seven Against Thebes, Antiope and also in the lost play Niobe.

The area of "old Serbia, Ser boia" is the same area where we find all the "celtic" crosses and where I come from. The mountain overlooking my father's village is called Vlasina, the mountain of Vlahs, Walachs...Basically the mountains of the Balkans, the same mountains that preserved the old European language and culture were the land of the white, shepherd warriors.

So the story is not so simple. It is a riddle inside of a mystery...But that is why it is fun.

Last edited by dublinviking; 21-01-2014 at 12:04.
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21-01-2014, 12:26   #14
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Ancient Language

How does this affect the people that were there for thousands of years before known contact between these cultures?
Also, could the language similarities have been brought over by the Romans for example?
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21-01-2014, 14:49   #15
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This book has another "non mainstream" idea on Rathcroghan.
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