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23-10-2013, 14:29   #16
euroboom13
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We have a bank controled democratic world (money owns democracy through media)

It is a very good system,much better than the opposite ,a world goverment controlled banking system,which the axis would have achieved,but never held on too.

History is writin by the victor,hence the extreme hatred of once popular world leaders.

Dictators in open control get assasinated,but dictators hidden behind democracy rule freely,make mistakes but live to correct them.

If you changed the word "jew" into "banker" in all prewar speeches and repeated them today ,you would be elected in every democracy.
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23-10-2013, 14:34   #17
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So as early as 1901 the protocols were thought in some circles to be a Jewish Freemason conspiracy
Some circles yes. I have not seen anything to make me think this was what Hitler thought and it does not at all mesh with his previous and later stances and total lack of referring to freemasons in anything else.
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So would you agree when he is talking about a small international clique and his previous rhetoric about the protocols of Zion that this is exactly who he was talking about
And the cry of the Jews would also be apt in this instance
Yes, but again, I would not agree that he is referring to freemasons.
He believed that it was a conspiracy by Jews for the benefit for Jews because they were Jews. There is nothing to suggest that he believed it had anything to do with freemasonry.

Not all freemasons are Jews and not all Jews are freemasons. Screaming "the Jews" when someone is talking about freemasons does not make sense.

This is not what most people who believe in freemason conspiracies nowadays (or people who believe there's something to that conspiracy like the OP) believe.

But if you are agreeing that the basis for Hitler's belief in the conspiracy is from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, doesn't that make the whole thing moot? If he is talking about a fictional conspiracy from a book that has been shown to be a racist hoax and propaganda tool, then what is he exposing in his speech?

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23-10-2013, 16:36   #18
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I'd say he's probaly referring to the Jewish bankers or lobby then so. I find it strange that he said 'It is a small, rootless, international clique that is turning the people against each other, that does not want them to have peace'.

The 'does not want them to have peace', is a strange part too. For a man who we learn about as kids, as a mass murdering psychopath. I never thought he mentioned the word peace, ever.
You seem to be implying that Hitler was setup because he turned his back on the banking system? Hitler was referring to the Jews, he regularly described them as manipulators and villains. This was part of his propaganda. Look at all the propaganda pieces the Nazi government financed. The Eternal Jew etc, they all use pretty much the same language of Hitler's speeches.

If you pick any quote out of context, it can throw a person in a new light but a dishonest light. Hitler's idea of 'peace' was successfully culling the world of people that he viewed to be lesser in contrast to the so called 'Aryan' race. Hitler's use of 'peace' was very much so propaganda. You're also required to ignore the fact that he was without a doubt a mass murdering psychopath.

Can find mentions of 'peace' in pretty much every totalitarian leader's speeches, using such terms is unifying to the people who aren't the significant casualties of the leader.
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23-10-2013, 16:55   #19
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Some circles yes. I have not seen anything to make me think this was what Hitler thought and it does not at all mesh with his previous and later stances and total lack of referring to freemasons in anything else.

In some circles I was referring to antisemites im sure you would agree Hitler fits the bill
@ 0.43

Jews and freemasons armament industrialists and war profiteers international traders and stock jobbers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkRvrogt30

Quote:
Yes, but again, I would not agree that he is referring to freemasons.
He believed that it was a conspiracy by Jews for the benefit for Jews because they were Jews. There is nothing to suggest that he believed it had anything to do with freemasonry.

Not all freemasons are Jews and not all Jews are freemasons. Screaming "the Jews" when someone is talking about freemasons does not make sense.
It makes perfect sense if you think he was talking about a masonic /Jewish conspiracy

Quote:
This is not what most people who believe in freemason conspiracies nowadays (or people who believe there's something to that conspiracy like the OP) believe
.

cant see the relevance of that statement I thought we were trying to ascertain what Hitler believed

Quote:
But if you are agreeing that the basis for Hitler's belief in the conspiracy is from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, doesn't that make the whole thing moot? If he is talking about a fictional conspiracy from a book that has been shown to be a racist hoax and propaganda tool, then what is he exposing in his speech?
No Im not agreeing with anything of the sort
You brought up the protocols when asked for evidence of Hitler and others referring to the Jews as a small international clique
Do you have another instance for this exact terminology ?

Which is really the part of the speech that tells you who he is referring to an estimated 15.3 million Jews world wide approx 9 million in europe is not a small clique

Admittedly I havent watched many of his speeches but from what I have seen he seemed a powerful speaker and I would hazzard a guess that he choose his words carefully to gain maximum effect
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23-10-2013, 19:41   #20
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You brought up the protocols when asked for evidence of Hitler and others referring to the Jews as a small international clique
I suppose that you think that when Hitler spoke of "the International Jew" in the singular he was referring to some guy called Avi in New York?

Or is it really too much to expect precise language from a man who believed that it was the Jews who had started WWII? Perhaps you'd prefer: "it is a rootless clique comprised of members of an ethic group that comprises approximately 16m people globally, depending on how one measures it, that is turning people against each other"?

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Do you have another instance for this exact terminology?
Let me see... how about this speech in 1941:

"And yet to speak today of England's World Power or of England as the master of the world, is nothing but an illusion. To begin with her internal situation: England, in spite of her world conquests is perhaps socially the most backward State in Europe. Socially backward-that is, a State orientated entirely in the interests of a comparatively small and thin upper stratum and the Jewish clique with which it is allied."

"It would never have been possible to begin this armament race unless others had wanted it. I made proposals to them. However, every proposal, coming as it did from me, was sufficient to cause excitement among a certain Jewish-international-capitalist clique, just as it used to happen formerly in Germany when every reasonable proposal was rejected only because it was made by National Socialists"

"If the war continues this will prove a great misfortune for England, and you will have ample opportunity to gain further experience. The English will make up their minds to send a commission which is to take over our soldiers. It is this social Germany which is hated most by this clique, a conglomeration of Jews, their financiers and profiteers"

Bafflingly, he failed to mention the Masons at all in that speech. How strange
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23-10-2013, 20:16   #21
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I don't think he was targeting just masons.He only mentioned them as an aside it seems to me.More of a coupling with other groups from the speech I saw.
I'm curious why he found the jewish race such a threat though.I would love to read mein campf, but its 28 euro in easons and I hate reading long pdf's.
Will buy it at a later date though.I'm genuinely curious what he was getting at overall.
I am currently reading Neitzsche's Thus Spoke zarathustra.
Some great writing there, a lot of it is stuff I have said or decided to myself, but I need to read mein campf or however its spelled to find Hitlers interpretation and motivations.

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23-10-2013, 22:08   #22
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Originally Posted by Reekwind View Post
I suppose that you think that when Hitler spoke of "the International Jew" in the singular he was referring to some guy called Avi in New York?
You can suppose what you like but it adds nothing to the conversation

Quote:
Or is it really too much to expect precise language from a man who believed that it was the Jews who had started WWII? Perhaps you'd prefer: "it is a rootless clique comprised of members of an ethic group that comprises approximately 16m people globally, depending on how one measures it, that is turning people against each other"?
And again it is not what I prefer that matters
as I stated earlier he seemed very calculating in his speeches


Quote:
"And yet to speak today of England's World Power or of England as the master of the world, is nothing but an illusion. To begin with her internal situation: England, in spite of her world conquests is perhaps socially the most backward State in Europe. Socially backward-that is, a State orientated entirely in the interests of a comparatively small and thin upper stratum and the Jewish clique with which it is allied."

"It would never have been possible to begin this armament race unless others had wanted it. I made proposals to them. However, every proposal, coming as it did from me, was sufficient to cause excitement among a certain Jewish-international-capitalist clique, just as it used to happen formerly in Germany when every reasonable proposal was rejected only because it was made by National Socialists"

"If the war continues this will prove a great misfortune for England, and you will have ample opportunity to gain further experience. The English will make up their minds to send a commission which is to take over our soldiers. It is this social Germany which is hated most by this clique, a conglomeration of Jews, their financiers and profiteers"

Bafflingly, he failed to mention the Masons at all in that speech. How strange
again he seems to be singling out a small cohort of Jews and others not all the Jewish people

Do you think he is talking about ordinary Jewish families from the east end or the wealthy Jewish families in cahoots with Royalty and government who were entrenched in Freemasonry


Ill put this here

clique (klk, klk)
n.
A small exclusive group of friends or associates.
intr.v. cliqued, cliqu·ing, cliques Informal
To form, associate in, or act as a clique.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/clique
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23-10-2013, 22:36   #23
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think a more interesting comparison to Hitler's speech is the words of his WWII nemesis Winston Churchill.

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/ish.htm

Churchill was himself a Mason so unsurprisingly doesn't mention them, but he raises the same points as Hitler i.e. Jews, Illuminism, Communism, destruction of morality and revolution .



Zionism versus Bolshevism: A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People

Winston Churchill

Quote:
Some people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world.
And it may well be that this same astounding race may at the present time be in the actual process of producing another system of morals and philosophy, as malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which, if not arrested would shatter irretrievably all that Christianity has rendered possible. It would almost seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of Antichrist were destined to originate among the same people; and that this mystic and mysterious race had been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of the divine and the diabolical.
The National Russian Jews, in spite of the disabilities under which they have suffered, have managed to play an honourable and successful part in the national life even of Russia. As bankers and industrialists they have strenuously promoted the development of Russia's economic resources, and they were foremost in the creation of those remarkable organisations, the Russian Co-operative Societies. In politics their support has been given, for the most part, to liberal and progressive movements, and they have been among the staunchest upholders of friendship with France and Great Britain.

International Jews

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.
Terrorist Jews

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing.

"Protector of the Jews"

Needless to say, the most intense passions of revenge have been excited in the breasts of the Russian people. Wherever General Denikin's authority could reach, protection was always accorded to the Jewish population, and strenuous efforts were made by his officers to prevent reprisals and to punish those guilty of them. So much was this the case that the Petlurist propaganda against General Denikin denounced him as the Protector of the Jews. The Misses Healy, nieces of Mr. Tim Healy, relating their personal experiences in Kieff, have declared that to their knowledge on more than one occasion officers who committed offences against Jews were reduced to the ranks and sent out of the city to the front. But the hordes of brigands by whom the whole vast expanse of the Russian Empire is becoming infested do not hesitate to gratify their lust for blood and for revenge at the expense of the innocent Jewish population whenever an opportunity occurs. The brigand Makhno, the hordes of Petlura and of Gregorieff, who signalised their every success by the most brutal massacres, everywhere found among the half-stupefied, half-infuriated population an eager response to anti-Semitism in its worst and foulest forms. The fact that in many cases Jewish interests and Jewish places of worship are excepted by the Bolsheviks from their universal hostility has tended more and more to associate the Jewish race in Russia with the villainies which are now being perpetrated.
A Home for the Jews

Zionism offers the third sphere to the political conceptions of the Jewish race. In violent contrast to international communism. Zionism has already become a factor in the political convulsions of Russia, as a powerful competing influence in Bolshevik circles with the international communistic system. Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weissmann in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a world-wide communistic State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal. The struggle which is now beginning between the Zionist and Bolshevik Jews is little less than a struggle for the soul of the Jewish people.

Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 8, 1920, page 5.

Like Churchill Hitler was an early supporter of Zionism. Hitler collaborated with the Zionists. This is a comemmerative coin minted by the Nazis featuring the Star of David.








+++++++++++++


The last point is that Churchill's position is not based on the protocols but on his observations as a journalist. Hitler considered the Protocols as genuine in part because real world events that were predicted in the protocols were coming to pass - in his eyes at least.


People can decide for themselves the text is here: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/prz...ocol%20No.%204



For an example people should also read the authenthic Alta Vendita written by the Carbonari/Freemasons. It details a Masonic plan to infiltrate and destroy the Catholic Church - just as the Communists did later. The Jews of Italy had allied themselves with the Carbonari in this quest.



The document is here: http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/dillon/text.htm#14



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23-10-2013, 22:42   #24
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Just to correct Churchill on this:
Quote:
With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews.
Lenin hid his Jewish heritage.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...073133,00.html
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23-10-2013, 22:51   #25
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And again it is not what I prefer that matters
as I stated earlier he seemed very calculating in his speeches
These would be his rambling polemics laden with pathos and light on facts or reality? Yet you believe that every word, every turn of phrase was perfectly calibrated? Enough to drag us into the morass of semantics? Really?

The truth is of course nothing of the sorts. Hitler generally spoke largely off the cuff with only rough notes to guide him. His language, particularly in the early days, was coarse, the subject matter repetitive and the actual language secondary to the effect on the audience

Quote:
Do you think he is talking about ordinary Jewish families from the east end or the wealthy Jewish families in cahoots with Royalty and government who were entrenched in Freemasonry
He was talking about them all. Hitler saw the Jews as the key threat to Germany. Not 'the elite Jews' but the Jews as a race. That was his obsession. When the Nazis set out to exterminate the Jews they didn't focus the wealthy Jews but sought to wipe out the entire ethnic group - including millions of peasants in Poland and Russia

In Nazi eyes behind every opponent lay a shadowy Jewish clique - from financiers in the US through to commissars in the USSR - coordinating the downfall of Germany. But every Jew was working at some level to undermine Germany. Hitler didn't go to his deathbed moaning about Masons or secret societies or elite bankers, his last written words concerned the Jews

Why you seem to be suggesting that Hitler's bête noire was actually Freemasonry, I do not know

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Originally Posted by Brown Bomber
People can decide for themselves the text is here:
What's there to decide? The Protocols were exposed, rather conclusively, as a forgery almost a century ago
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23-10-2013, 22:57   #26
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re above, read again. The context gives meaning.

Quote:
The last point is that Churchill's position is not based on the protocols but on his observations as a journalist. Hitler considered the Protocols as genuine in part because real world events that were predicted in the protocols were coming to pass - in his eyes at least.


People can decide for themselves the text is here: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/prz...ocol%20No.%204
EDIT: This is a tactic of war suggested in the Protocols


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23-10-2013, 23:00   #27
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In Nazi eyes behind every opponent lay a shadowy Jewish clique - from financiers in the US through to commissars in the USSR
Jewish and gentile financiers in the US tended to be rather generous to the fuhrer.

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler
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24-10-2013, 01:20   #28
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In some circles I was referring to antisemites im sure you would agree Hitler fits the bill
@ 0.43

Jews and freemasons armament industrialists and war profiteers international traders and stock jobbers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkRvrogt30
Two problems with this. First it's a translation from a youtube video, so I trust it about as far as I can throw it, you'll need to post a more credible transcript.
Second, even though he mentions freemasons (assuming it is correctly translated), he doesn't say they are part of the same conspiracy as the Jews.

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It makes perfect sense if you think he was talking about a masonic /Jewish conspiracy
Still no. The guy blurting out "Jews" means he thinks that Hitler is refering to Jews. If he thought he was referring to freemasons, why didn't he shout "freemasons"? If he was taking about a Jewish/freemason conspiracy then your point is moot.

But it doesn't make sense to think he was given the target of all his other rhetoric.

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cant see the relevance of that statement I thought we were trying to ascertain what Hitler believed
My objection to the claim that Hitler was referring to freemasons is that it is a misrepresentation and that Hitlers views of a Jewish conspiracy (or even a Jewish/freemason conspiracy) are not the same views of most of those who currently believe in a freemason conspiracy.
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No Im not agreeing with anything of the sort
You brought up the protocols when asked for evidence of Hitler and others referring to the Jews as a small international clique
Do you have another instance for this exact terminology ?
I don't see why I would need to. The basis of his conspiracy directly and clearly states them as such. Other posters have pointed to other examples.

My point is that since the Protocols are a fake, and Hitler's speech is based in part on them, then he is not actually revealing anything about an actual conspiracy either past or current. That is because the conspiracy he was talking about was the result of racist propaganda.

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Which is really the part of the speech that tells you who he is referring to an estimated 15.3 million Jews world wide approx 9 million in europe is not a small clique
Yes that's true. But Hitler wrongly believed or claimed that they were also a international clique because of propaganda like the Protocols.
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24-10-2013, 02:36   #29
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Two problems with this. First it's a translation from a youtube video, so I trust it about as far as I can throw it, you'll need to post a more credible transcript.
Second, even though he mentions freemasons (assuming it is correctly translated), he doesn't say they are part of the same conspiracy as the Jews.

In Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler wrote that Freemasonry has succumbed to the Jews and has become an excellent instrument to fight for their aims and to use their strings to pull the upper strata of society into their designs. He continued, "The general pacifistic paralysis of the national instinct of self-preservation begun by Freemasonry" is then transmitted to the masses of society by the press.[7]

On August 8, 1935, as Führer and Chancellor, Adolf Hitler announced in the Nazi Party newspaper, Voelkischer Beobachter, the final dissolution of all Masonic Lodges in Germany. The article accused a conspiracy of the Fraternity and World Jewry of seeking to create a World Republic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppres...y#cite_note-12

now if you want to put the speech in context

here is the transcript from the link you put up

The struggle between the people and the hatred amongst them is being nurtured by very specific interested parties. It is a small, rootless, international clique that is turning the people against each other, that does not want them to have peace ... It is the people who are at home both nowhere and everywhere, who do not have anywhere a soil on which they have grown up, but who live in Berlin today, in Brussels tomorrow, Paris the day after that, and then again in Prague or Vienna or London, and who feel at home everywhere. [Man in audience shouts 'The Jews!'] They are the only ones who can be addressed as international, because they conduct their business everywhere, but the people cannot follow them.'


maybe he was paving the way for this




The Enabling Act (Ermächtigungsgesetz in German) was passed by Germany's parliament (the Reichstag) on March 23, 1933. Using the Act, on January 8, 1934, the German Ministry of the Interior ordered the disbandment of Freemasonry, and confiscation of the property of all Lodges; stating that those who had been members of Lodges when Hitler came to power, in January 1933, were prohibited from holding office in the Nazi party or its paramilitary arms, and were ineligible for appointment in public service.[9] Consistently considered an ideological foe of Nazism in their world perception (Weltauffassung), special sections of the Security Service (SD) and later the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA) were established to deal with Freemasonry.[10] Freemasonic concentration camp inmates were graded as political prisoners, and wore an inverted (point down) red triangle


@Reekwind
Quote:
Why you seem to be suggesting that Hitler's bête noire was actually Freemasonry, I do not know
Had to look up that (bête noire) thought it was an icecream

Im 100% sure Hitler was a total nutter He thought Jews/Gays/Gypsies and so on even down to smokers were sub human and yes he even included Freemasons

The preserved records of the RSHA—i.e., Reichssicherheitshauptamt or the Office of the High Command of Security Service, which pursued the racial objectives of the SS through the Race and Resettlement Office—document the persecution of Freemasons.[10] The number of Freemasons from Nazi occupied countries who were killed is not accurately known, but it is estimated that between 80,000 and 200,000 Freemasons were murdered under the Nazi regime.[

As for the off the cuff speeches
have a read of this one seems pretty well thought out to me

SPEECH DELIVERED IN THE GERMAN REICHSTAG ON JANUARY 30TH 1937

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/hitler1.htm

And for the speech in the OP

This was the first speech that Hitler broadcast live on all German radio stations, and took place only nine months after his take-over as Chancellor of the German Reich

Im sure he put more than a little thought into it
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24-10-2013, 02:52   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enno99 View Post
In Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler wrote that Freemasonry has succumbed to the Jews and has become an excellent instrument to fight for their aims and to use their strings to pull the upper strata of society into their designs. He continued, "The general pacifistic paralysis of the national instinct of self-preservation begun by Freemasonry" is then transmitted to the masses of society by the press.[7]
Again, not because of anything to do with freemasonry, but because he believed that they were controlled by the Jews.

Do you believe that the freemasons are controlled by the Jews? Do you think that most people who believe in the freemason conspiracies or believe that there is something to them believe that they are controlled or succumbed to the Jews?
If not, then you agree that Hitler's views are different to the conspiracy most people are talking about these days. Which is the point I am making.

Further if you agree that the Protocols are a hoax, then you agree that Hitler's basis for his conspiracy is false, meaning that his speeches aren't revealing anything since they are talking about a conspiracy that did not exist.
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