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30-04-2013, 17:48   #1
dublinviking
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Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish culture

Old European (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish language and culture
Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence each other. And yet the number of similar or identical cultural, religious and linguistic characteristics kept growing. Also, people between the Balkans and Ireland did not share these cultural traits. This meant that there was no cultural diffusion. The conclusion was that these two people (Serbian and Irish) must have lived together somewhere at some point in history in order to mix their languages and cultures so much.
While trying to uncover potential meeting point, I first looked at Viking invasions from the south Baltic. While there were many things pointing to a substantial West Slavic presence among the Danish Vikings who settled in England and Ireland, this all happened too late in order to explain hundreds of old Irish words and names which were identical to the Serbian ones. Not only were these words the same, they came in clusters and could often have a root in only one of languages with complex words being present in both. It also could not explain the early medieval Irish personal names which had meaning in Serbian. It also could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. Vikings just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar.
I then looked at the Ango – Saxon period and discovered that there was a significant West Slavic (Wendish) presence in the Angles alliance. They settled in large areas of England, and there was a possibility that some unrecorded Angles settlements did appear in Ireland in the early medieval time with significant West Slavic population. But again this could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. If there were Angles settlements in Ireland in the early medieval time, they again just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar. Also there was a problem of even earlier archaeological finds, linked to the iron age, which had Serbian and Slavic characteristics. There were too many old customs, legends, sacred sites which had their counterparts in Slavic countries and particularly Balkan South Slavic countries.
So I looked at Rome, and Roman invasions of Britain and wandered was this maybe the source of common cultural characteristics between the Irish and the Serbs. But Romans never entered Ireland and there is no known record of Irish mercenaries in the Roman army, so that removed a possible connection once again.
So I looked at Iron Age period and found many things which pointed to a significant cultural influx from the south Baltic. There was a great similarity between Lusatian culture in the south Baltic and the Iron Age cultures in Ireland and England, and it seems that the Iron Age was brought to Ireland on the spears and swords of the people from south Baltic. This was a good starting point. The warrior elite from the Baltic could have brought with them their beliefs, their language and their customs, and forced them on the people they encountered in Ireland. But that would not explain the huge number of toponymes and hydronimes in the Balkans which have no meaning in Slavic languages but do have meaning in Irish. And these toponymes and hydronimes come in clusters and are tightly connected with the location of the Balkan tumulus culture sites. Also this would not explain the presence of all the words, and grammatical constructs which only exist in Irish and in certain dialects of south Slavic languages and particularly in some old dialects of Serbian. This also would not explain all the base words in South Slavic languages which can be broken down and explained using Irish. For this to be possible, Irish speaking people had to be present in the Balkans in great numbers for a very long time during the Iron Age and even during the Bronze Age.
So I looked at Celts as a possible cultural link between the two people. They were the rulers of central Europe, precisely the area between the Baltic and the Balkans. That would have given them the ability to influence both the Irish and the people who would later become the Western Slavs. But Celts never had any significant long term presence in the Balkans. They came through the Balkans on the way to Asia Minor in the 3rd century bc. But their main strongholds were in the area above Danube. The area below Danube was the land of the Illyrians. Illyrians and Celts were by some people linked and called Celto – Illyrians. This certainly was a good lead. If Illyrians actually spoke the same or similar language to the Celts, then that would explain all the similarities between the Irish and Serbian languages but only if we accept that both the Irish and Serbian languages are direct descendants of the Celto Illyrian language and that Celtic and Illyrian were the same language.
This was already getting very controversial, as this would mean that there is a cultural continuity in the area between the Baltic and the Balkan lasting for more than 2500 years. This would mean that there is an underlying Celtic cultural layer in the Slavic culture and that the Slavic culture was created as a fusion of the Celtic and Skito Sarmatian cultures? The similarities between the Irish and Serbian cultures would then be the Celtic layer, and that would allow us to decipher the Celtic language from Irish and Slavic languages. This was very exciting. But there were things that could not be explained with the Celtic connection.
First it could not explain the amount of the words, customs, legends from old Rome and old Greece which could not be explained through Old Greek and Latin but could using Irish and Serbian language and culture. The only way this was possible was that somehow these cultural influences came to Italy and Greece from the Balkans at the time before the formation of both Kingdome of Rome and the Classical Greece. And there were plenty of ancient historical texts, as well as archaeological data that pointed to exactly that was the case.
The latest archaeological data from Serbia confirms that iron was invented in the Balkans. The earliest iron metallurgical centre in the world, dated to 14th–13th century b BC, was found in south eastern Serbia in the hill fort settlement on the hill called Hisar. This site belongs to the earliest proto Illyrian period.
So there was a culture in the Balkans powerful enough to influence Rome, Greece and Celtic central Europe. This had moved the meeting point where the future Irish and Serbs lived together to the Balkans in the end of the second and the beginning of the first millennium BC and identified the Illyrian culture as the root culture for both the Irish and the Serbs. But this culture also greatly influenced Old Rome and Greece which was evident from the amount of cultural characteristics and linguistic traces in both cultures which were in all the ancient texts attributed to the mysterious Pelasgians who even more mysteriously disappeared from the face of the earth together with their Illyrian and Celtic neighbours. These Pelasgians, Illyrians and Celts now turned out to be alive and well in the Irish, South and Western Slavs….This was getting really interesting.
But then I came across the story about Vinca metallurgical revolution which happened in the 4th millennium BC. At the same time when they were making lots of Copper and Bronze weapons, Vinca people were creating a first organized religion. When you have well-armed religious fanatics you can be sure that a religious war is not far behind. And that is exactly what seemed to have happened in the second half of the 4th millennium BC. Vinca culture suddenly disappeared from the Balkans, but Vinca artefacts started appearing all over Europe, Asia and North Africa. And all of a sudden all these great civilisations started appearing everywhere, all based on the same symbols, the wolf, the eagle and other birds, the snake, the bee, the bull, the double axe, the mother goddess earth, the father sky, the son sun and daughter moon, the bird people and wolf people. The Vincans went out of the Balkans and took over the world, wielding their metal spears, swords and axes and carrying their wolf totems before them. They also took with them their language whose traces can be now found in all the Indo European languages.
But they did not all leave. Some stayed at home and they later morphed into Illyrians. Those who went north eventually became Celts and Germans. Those who reached Britain and Ireland eventually became Gaels.
Later the descendants of the Vincans returned, in waves from all sides, bringing with them new cultural and linguistic characteristics which they acquired over the centuries while mixing with the indo European peoples they had conquered. These new cultural and linguistic layers were deposited on top of the old European strand of Vinca culture which was created from the mix of Vincans and the other old European cultures. Steppe people came from the east, Asia minor and Mesopotamians from the south east, North African people from the south, Atlantic people from the west. And the Vinca culture slowly disappeared.
The isolation of the Irish at the end of Europe, and the sheer number and military strength of the mountain people of the Balkans and the Central European mountains helped them to preserve this Vinca cultural and linguistic layer to this day, albeit covered with thick layers of Gaelic and Slavic and many other cultures and Languages.
Comparing these two languages I believe that I have now uncovered this culture and language of old Europe. It could not be better.
But this is not all.
I also believe that in this old language I have discovered a possibility to reconstruct the oldest language spoken in Europe, the language before the language. I believe that I have discovered how the first language was formed in Europe from natural sounds, and how this earliest human language was preserved and conserved in the Irish and Serbian languages and their base words.
To support my theory, I have accumulated a lot of material which I am translating into English. I am planning to make it available as soon as possible. The work is however in progress and I am writing this to invite everyone who might be interested to help me to continue this investigation as this is becoming too big and too important for just one man.
I hope this does not sound too mad or pretentious. You have to believe me that I am pinching myself every day, as it is hard to believe that anyone can be so lucky to stumble across something like this…

Last edited by dublinviking; 30-04-2013 at 17:50.
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30-04-2013, 19:50   #2
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Fascinating stuff. Best of luck with it and hopefully the journey will be fruitful.
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30-04-2013, 20:51   #3
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There were two posters here who could be helpful. Sadly, Enkidu, the most helpful poster you could meet has closed his account because he's off writing a book.
The other poster is Bolgios, whose experience straddles both regions.

I'll see if I can find some of Enkidu's posts on Indo-European roots.
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30-04-2013, 21:36   #4
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Thank you very much guys.

I will start here by commending you for your effort and praising your enthusiasm with an irish - serbian word "Mol"

Mol
Moladh

Irish

commend(vt)
commend(vt)
hub(n m1)(of wheel)
nominate(vt)(propose)
propose(vt)
praise(vt)
recommend(vt)
suggest(vt)

Serbian

Praise
Beg
Plead
Suggest

Mol-im te bože - I beg you, I praise you god
Mol-ba Pleading
Molad je (e) - c - reccommended is - a commendation given to a someone
Mol-io bih - If i could suggest


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30-04-2013, 21:53   #5
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Ancient Cultures

Hi dublinviking,

I don't know if this is relevant but I found it on a Graham Hancock post.

http://news.yahoo.com/ancient-europeans-mysteriously-vanished-4-500-years-ago-151646349.html

Might be connected, you never know, could be a sign of common ancestry.

Cheers.

Last edited by cfuserkildare; 30-04-2013 at 21:55. Reason: Missing info
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30-04-2013, 22:04   #6
dublinviking
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Quite possible. The Vinca migration went out from the Balkans 5,500 years ago to south east. The descendants of these Vinca people, came back later and recolonized Europe.

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30-04-2013, 22:16   #7
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Vinca

I would have to bring in the Mummies of the Takla Makkan as a possible wild card here though, a village pre Summerian and originating over this side of Europe, ie Celtic, in the seat of Asian developement.


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01-05-2013, 10:19   #8
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Quote:
I would have to bring in the Mummies of the Takla Makkan as a possible wild card here though, a village pre Summerian and originating over this side of Europe, ie Celtic, in the seat of Asian developement.
What is the dating on these mummies? Vinca culture is a continuation of much older Balkan cultures like Lepenski vir, Starcevo... Vinca produced first metal 7000 years ago. I know i have said that they went into an all out war in the second part of the 4th millennium but i see no reason for them not to start the process of expansion much earlier. Also it is quite possible that Vincans came from somewhere else. There are much earlier civilizations existing in the steppes in the east and there is probably a link. The reason why vinca is where i stopped is because this is how far i have been able to trace the common Europen cultural threads.


Ok first things first. I need to define what and who the "Serbs" are. It seems that “Serb” or probably originally just SRB originally meant a member of a Vincan military elite, almost like a religious military order. This name for a warrior was spread around the world with vincan invaders and could explain all the Sar, Ser, Sur, Sir, Sor, names, toponymes, place names that we find strewn from Britain to Mesopotamia.
Only much later in the old Vinca land, and in the adjoining central European lands between Balkans and Baltic, this became the name for tribes ruled by this warrior elite. Maybe this was the name that Vincans used to call themselves, and that is the reason it survived in the Balkan - Baltic area, but i can't prove that.

So lets see where the meaning of word Serb comes from:


Saor in Irish means free.
Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.

bean

touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitrós, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfónos, slaughter, @Gqeínw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.

So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

There is no etymology to be found for Serbian, Sarbian in any Slavic language and this has long been a hot topic of contention…So this is obviously pre Slavic word.

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01-05-2013, 11:30   #9
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This post might be of interest to you and this thread

and these,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...6&postcount=53

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...73&postcount=8
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01-05-2013, 16:01   #10
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Thank you all guys. I don't know too many people in the field of Archeology and Paleolinguistics in Ireland. If you know anyone who could help, please invite them along. This is going to be some ride and more the merrier.

Thanks Slow burner. Thank you very much for the links. Specially the one about the sound changes.

Let me continue with my story. I am actually presenting it in the same order it presented itself to me, so you can see how i arrived to my final conclusion. I have skipped the whole Slavic Viking, And Slavic Angles story. It is important but I just don't have time to translate all of it at the moment. If you know anyone who is particularly interested in that aspect of my investigation, i can try and translate some of it...

So back to Vinca connection.

Tabor Breg in Kingdom of Brega

In Serbia you can find Mountain Tara and river Tara, but also mountain taor which is how you pronounce Teamhair (tavor, taor (tabor)) the actual old name of Tara in Ireland. People who live in this part of Serbia call themselves "Ere" and there is even a male personal name Era.

In Serbian tabor is a military camp. Utaboriti se is to set up camp. Taborovati is to camp. Tavoriti is standing in one place, not moving. Tabor, Tavor, Taur, Tara....

I know that word tabor also exists in turkish with the same meaning (a military camp), but this word predates the Turks and I believe that it is a borrowing from Serbian (Irish, Vinca language). There is a mount Taur in Lycia, the tallest mountain range in Anatolia which predates the Turkish invasions of Asia Minor. There is also attested Celtic presence in Asia Minor many centuries before Turks arrived. Huge number of Balkan "Slavs", were settled in the eastern parts of Anatolia in the early medieval time by the Byzantine empire to man the military frontier. Later on, after the Turkish conquest, core of the military elite quickly became predominantly manned by the Balkan “Slavs”. Janissary (infantry) and Delije (Cavalry) were predominantly of Balkan "Slavic" Serbian origin. Cavalry was always the strongest force in the Serbian army. The superiority of the Serbian cavalry in the 12th to 15th century Europe was absolute. They were considered the best cavalry in Europe and European Hussars originate in the late 15th-century Serbian warriors that had left Ottoman Serbia, beginning in the 14th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars

At the moment there are several million Turks with Serbian (Bosnian) descent living in Turkey. So tabor can well be a very old Serbian, Irish, Vinca word for a military camp, which came into Turkish as a borrowing. Another proof that word Tabor comes from central Europe is that it is found in the languages spoken in central European lands never conquered by Turks, like Czech and Slovak...If you look at what the world for military camp is in European languages, You will see that these languages use word Tabor: South Slavic, Romanian, Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, . Russians use лагерь, Bulgarians лагер…All Germanic and Latin based languages use Camp, including Irish…

And by the way there is no clear etymology for tara or Teamhair in Gaelic....

In Serbian "Taraba" is a fence, a barrier in front of the house, and "Za-tarabiti" is to place behind barier, to fence off....There is a word "Tar" in Irish which means to pass, so taraba could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home, where taraba would be the fence that surrounds home, which signifies that you have arrived. Place of arrival kind of corresponds to tabor. You arrive to Tabor.

I believe that this also supports the above etymology for Tara, Taor, Tabor:

Quote:
The Hill of Tara lies about midway between the towns of Dunshaughlin and Navan in the gently rolling countryside of south central Meath. The monuments comprising the core of the Tara complex are scattered along a low ridge about 2km long, orientated roughly north - south, a little to the west of the main Dublin-Navan road. Unimposing from the east, which is the usual modern approach, the ground rises steadily to about 155m above sea-level before dropping away quite steeply to the west, presenting an impressive vista over the central plain of Ireland.

This aspect is implicit in one of the two etymologies of its Irish name, Teamhair, provided by the ninth-century text Sanas Chormaic, i.e. a height from which there is a fine view. An alternative, and possibly more accurate, etymology emphasises the liminal nature of Tara, suggesting that the name has something to do with twilight or darkness, perhaps a sacred space or the gates to the Otherworld. It is likely, nevertheless, that the sense of elevation at Tara, which is conferred by the surrounding panorama rather than by its actual height above sea-level, was a key factor in the choice of this place for ceremonial activity.
http://www.knowth.com/tara-survey.htm

You set up tabor (military camp) on top of hills from which you can have a good view of the surrounding countryside...So in 9th century they still remembered (vaguely) the original meaning of the word. Now however we have this mumbo jumbo light dark crap which is "possibly more accurate".


It is also interesting that the hill of Tara Is in the area of Ireland which once belonged to the kingdom of Brega. In Serbian "Breg" means a small hill, and particularly man made hill. In Irish "breg" has no meaning, although i did find it translated in some places as "hill". So Breg Tabor was in the kingdom of Brega.

Here is an interesting poem from 10-12th century which talks about "tabor (Temair) breg":

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T106500A/text001.html

The poem starts:

Quote:
Temair Breg, whence is it named? Declare O sages!
Then it goes on to explain:


Quote:
Cathair Crofhind ('twas not amiss)
30] was its name under the Tuatha De Danand,
till there came Tea, never unjust,
the wife of Erimon lofty of mien.
Round her house was built a rampart
by Tea daughter of Lugaid;
35] she was buried beyond the wall without,
so that from her is Temair named.
The Seat of the Kings was its name:
the kingly line of the Milesians reigned in it:
five names accordingly were given it
40] from the time when it was Fordruim till it was Temair.
So Tuatha De Danan ruled this land. They gave the name to "tabor breg". Then Milesians came and conquered the area, and the meaning of the name was forgotten. According to the Irish chronicles, Tuatha De Danan came from the North East, from across the sea, from South Baltic. They spoke a language in which "tabor breg" had a meaning. Milesians came from south west, from across the sea, from Spain. They spoke Gaelic, the language in which "tabor breg" does not have meaning.

Quote:
...The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from Nemed...Nemed was the son of Agnoman of Scythia...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed

Milesians

Quote:
Milesians are a people figuring in Irish mythology. The descendants of Míl Espáine (which is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania"), they were the final inhabitants of Ireland invading the country from Iberia, and were believed to represent the Goidelic (or Gaelic) Celts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)

On the fifth page of the poem it says:

Quote:
Mag Breg with numerous hills
Here is what is said about the kingdom of Brega:


Quote:
Brega took its name from Mag Breg, the plain of Brega in modern County Meath, County Louth and County Dublin, Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Brega

Does Kingdom of Brega means the Kingdom of the hills, Tumuluses? There aren't too many tumuluses in Ireland. There are many in the Balkans. Obviously the tumulus culture came from the Balkans to Ireland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

Quote:
A tumulus can be found close to the Grianán of Aileach in County Donegal. It has been suggested by historians such as George Petrie, who surveyed the site in the early 19th century, that the tumulus may predate the ring fort of Aileach by many centuries possibly to the neolithic age. Surrounding stones were laid horizontally, and converged towards the centre. the mound had been excavated in Petrie’s time, but nothing explaining its meaning was discovered. It was subsequently destroyed, but its former position is marked by a heap of broken stones. Similar mounds can be found at The Hill of Tara and there are several prominent tumuli at Brú na Bóinne in County Meath.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BA_na_B%C3%B3inne
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01-05-2013, 17:25   #11
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The point in comparing Irish and Serbs is that they are far apart in every way, and should not have any overlapping cultural and linguistic characteristics. But i have found hundreds of words, names, grammatical constructs, sayings, customs, beliefs, legends which are the same or are complementing each other. This is only possible if at some, very distant time these now unrelated people were one and the same. I am betting on the I haplogroup, And particularly on I2a as being the carriers of that culture. So for me Vinca = Illyria = Central Europan Celts = Lusatian culture = Norse Germanic culture = Old Irish culture = Central European western and south Slavic cultures = I2a. But also all the other I haplogroups as well.

Quote:
For many years--and despite enormous sums spent on WTYs etc.--the I2a-Dinaric clade common in Central-Eastern Europe has been very resistant to SNP definition and partition. Not a single SNP was found to split the clade, and the only SNP to define the clade was L147, which occurs in multiple other haplogroups and hence is not sufficiently "unique" for the FTDNA haplotree.

But finally, Geno 2.0 results have identified two SNPs that split Dinaric, and three more that define it. All five are now available for order from FTDNA.

CTS10228 and CTS5966 were ancestral in one south-central Polish Dinaric, but derived in about seven other Dinarics across Central-Eastern Europe.

CTS10936, CTS11768, and CTS4002 were derived in all eight Dinarics, but ancestral in the nearest related clade (Disles).

The one Dinaric that tested negative for CTS10228 and CTS5966 has ordered Y-DNA67, but no marker results have arrived yet.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-Dinaric-clade

So there is a definite old link between Balkan I2a and Irish and British I2a. R1b (gaelic) came much later (2500 bc) from Spain and southern France. But they only subdued the whole of Ireland in the early medieval time, so this is why this old culture survived for so long...
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01-05-2013, 21:52   #12
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Some people are wandering how could there be a link between Vinca (pre-Indo-Europeans) 5300-3500 BC and Celtic people (Indo-Europeans) proto-proper 1800-700 BC. I was one of those people myself.

But connection does exists. Vinca cultural and economic expansion probably started before 3500 bc. Their full scale invasion of the rest of the world started some time after 3500 bc. They reached among other places Greece, Crete, Asia Minor and eventually Egypt. There in Egypt they started great Egyptian civilization which later bore Mynoan civilization which later bore Mycenaean civilization which then came back home and started the proto Celto Illyrian civilization.
They also went east and started Mesopotamian civilizatons, Indian civilization...The Indo Europeans who invaded Europe were just coming back home.


What is important to understand about these Vinca guys, is that they were not a nation, but a military oligarchy, which would impose itself on other people, force their beliefs and culture on them and form something of a mix of local and Vincan culture. They were small in number, but technologically superior and completely bloody minded. So they would conquer a tribe and couple of centuries later effectively disappear in the sea of their subjects. These tribes, now equipped with new weapons and technology, would have no problem attacking other Vinca conquered tribes, and even Vinca homeland itself...
I actually can prove direct religious link from Vinca (3500 bc) to Delphi (800 bc). This will make a lot of things clearer...If there is a religious and cultural and linguistic continuity between Vinca and Serbs and Irish of today, then there is also a link between Vinca and "the celts"...
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02-05-2013, 15:45   #13
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Let me continue

Who are the Irish?

There is something very interesting about the Irish language. You have a lot of words which are pronounced and sometimes even spelled the same, and which have completely different unrelated meanings. This shows that Irish is a composite language. No language, which is not composite, has that characteristic. You have a lot of that in English and everyone knows that this is because English is a composite language. I believe that the same is the case with Irish. Believe or not, I bought the biggest Irish English dictionary I could find, and I read it cover to cover (mad I know). And you have this over and over again. But what you also have is lots of old words which were Gaelicised. You can see this if you compare them with the old Irish versions. Time after time you see the same pattern, where the original word was changed to confirm with the Gaelic language structure. And the last thing that I noticed is that there are many base terms, which should really be defined with one word, but which have multiple words in Irish. Again this is the sign of a composite language.

This is completely in tune with the archaeological evidence, Irish historical records and genetic data.

I read a very good book recently called "The Origins of the Irish" by J. P. Mallory.

James Patrick Mallory is an Irish-American archaeologist and Indo-Europeanist. Mallory is an emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies and Emania: Bulletin of the Navan Research Group (Belfast).

What does he have to say about who today's Irish are?

Basically no one knows. But what we do know is that there was definitely significant influx from both western Mediterranean and from south Baltic…

There seemed to have been two Irelands:

First one was Ireland of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings which was influenced from south Baltic region.
Second one was the Ireland of Gaelic, Iverni, Milesians, Mil Espain, which was influenced from western Mediterranean region.

I don’t know who the original inhabitants of Ireland were, but I know that for at least last 4500 years, there has been continuous transfer of people, cultures and languages from these two centres into Ireland. Ireland was never one country and one culture, and it still isn’t. There is a drastic difference between south west (Mediterranean) and north east (South Baltic) influenced part of Ireland. There is a drastic difference in cultures in these two parts of Ireland, starting from two different types of megalithic structures which belong to either western Mediterranean or Central European Southern Baltic types.

The Iberians were according to the Irish chronicles the last to invade Ireland. They came and they burned and they destroyed and they plunged Ireland into a dark age. Do we have any evidence if this actually happen and when? We do. In "The Origins of the Irish" J. P. Mallory says that there is a sudden change in archaeological evidence which coincides with the beginning of the Iron Age in Ireland. It coincides with a massive depopulation of Ireland and switch from agriculture to flock herding. It also coincides with massive fortification and building of huge number of ring forts. So Gaels came and brought with them the Iron Age with all its beauties. It took Ireland couple of hundred years to recover.

The fact that the Gaels were at war with the Tuatha, Fomorians and the other central European people is evident from the Irish annals, which were by the way all written by the victors of this great struggle, the Gaels. In these histories the old people (Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni) were portrayed as enemies, evil, devious, magicians who should not be trusted, powerful but corrupt and bad. However the kings of Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni are credited with bringing all the arts and crafts to Ireland, and are frequently found imbedded in genealogies of the main Gaelic ruling families. Is this an attempt of the invaders to legitimise themselves by claiming relation to the powerful and famous rulers of old? Or was there a genuine intermarrying between these two peoples? Probably both.

The relationship between the Gaels and for instance the Tuatha is also evident from the Irish language:

Tuata - Layman
Tuath - people, tribe, laity
Tuath - lay, rural
Tuath - left, sinister, perverse, evil, malign
Tuathack - king, lord, chieftain
Tutahal - directed against the sun, wrong
Tuathalach - towards left, sinister, awkward, slovenly

Surely if Tuatha were Gaels, Tuath would not have such bad connotations in today's Gaelic Irish language?


The cultural merging of these two Irelands probably started quite early. Both communities were tribal, so there was no real sense of us against them. They formed and dissolved tribal alliances which fought each other and probably consisted of clans from both peoples. Maybe not. But by the fact that they lived side by side they must have communicated, traded, intermarried (stole each other’s wives) which all contributed to language mixing. The all-out war between these two sides only started with arrival of Christianity. They supported the south of Ireland, which turned out be mostly Gaelic, Milesian, Mil Espain side, and they eventually took over most of Ireland and forced their culture and language on everyone else apart from the eastern part of Ireland where thanks to continuous migration from south Baltic we have a continuation of this non Gaelic culture which morphed into Viking and later into Anglo Irish culture.

George Eogan is an Irish Archaeologist with particular interest in the Neolithic and Late Bronze Ages. A first degree at University College Dublin was followed by a doctoral thesis on Irish Late Bronze Age swords at Trinity College Dublin under Frank Mitchell. In the 1950's he worked with P.J. Hartnett on the Neolithic passage tomb at Fourknocks, and with Sean O Riordain at the Mound of the Hostages on the Hill of Tara. He was the Director of the Knowth Research Project and excavated at Knowth for more than 40 years as part of his investigation of the Passage Tomb builders in Ireland and Western Europe. Professor Eogan is a native of Nobber, Co. Meath in Ireland and has taught and lectured extensively on Irish archaeology.

Recently he gave this interview to the Irish Times newspaper, after spending his whole life studying the old kingdom of Brega and Bru na Boinne:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-s...-q-a-1.1066834

Here is one excerpt:

Quote:
How has the site weathered the past five millennia? Were subsequent inhabitants of the area respectful of it? Did they build over it?
That’s a very interesting question. In fact, between the seventh and 12th centuries AD, the mound at Knowth was the royal residence of the kings of Northern Brega, which occupied roughly the northern half of the modern county of Meath.
When you went down there in 1962, were you the first person to enter the tomb in 5,500 years or had previous generations pottered around in there?
The kings of Northern Brega transformed the site into a protected settlement by digging two ditches. When they were digging, they discovered the entrance to the passage. Some people went in and scratched their names on the stones.
What kind of names did people have in the seventh century?
They weren’t like our names today. One name was Snedta, who was a male individual, we think.
If he was carving his name all over the place, it was definitely a man.
Yes, most likely. The other was Teistennach. They would both have been members of the Northern Brega kingdom.
The point is, that we don’t know who the people were who lived in Brega kingdom in the period 7 - 12 century AD. We know they were different from today’s Irish and had strange names and probably even spoke a non-Gaelic language, but we just don’t know.

If potentially non-Gaelic people had their kingdoms in medieval Ireland, then it is almost certain that they did control even bigger portions of Ireland in more distant past. This is evident from another very good book which I read recently. The book is called “Iverni: A Prehistory of Cork”.

The book is written by Professor William O'Brien. Professor William O'Brien is a graduate of University College Cork where he completed doctoral research in 1987 on the subject of prehistoric copper mining. Prior to his appointment to the Cork chair in 2006, he lectured for 16 years in the Department of Archaeology, NUI Galway. His research interests include the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age in Ireland, early mining and metallurgy in Atlantic Europe, upland archaeology, the study of hillforts and all aspects of monumentality in the later prehistoric period. He has a particular interest in the prehistory of south-west Ireland, where he has conducted numerous research excavations. He has published widely on these topics, including books on his investigation of the Mount Gabriel mines, on wedge tomb landscapes, on his discovery of the Beaker copper mine at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, on early settlement landscapes and upland farming in the Beara Peninsula, and more recently the first general study of the prehistory of the Cork region.

In his book he concludes that there was a definite border and a division between the Ivernian civilization and the rest of Ireland. This border is marked by disappearance of west Mediterranean type megaliths and appearance of Central European type megaliths. In my opinion this pretty much corresponds to the division between the Gaelic and non-Gaelic Ireland. So what was the effect of this cultural division?

I believe that it is this cultural division of Ireland that leads to the situation where not all of the Irish language conforms to the Irish grammar. For instance Irish grammar says that when making compound words, you should always put adjectives after nouns. However there are lots of names in Ireland that do not confirm to that. Place names such as Dubh Linn ("black pool" = Dublin) and Leixlip ("salmon leap") were attributed to the Norse settlers who learned Irish had trouble with putting adjectives after nouns, so they often put them before the noun. This is exactly what happens when you force the new language on subjected population. They pick up the words but keep their own grammar. But this “non Gaelic Irish” language is present in all the old Irish texts, which shows that it predates the Norse, or more precisely the Dano-Slavs, as there were no Norse settlers in the Pale of Ireland only south Baltic ones. For instance Táin Bó Cúailnge, is filled with epithets like finnbennach "white-horned", dóeltenga "beetle-tongued", echbél "horse-lipped", rúadruca "red-blushing", and the like. I know that it wasn't written down until after the Vikings invaded but (a) the original core is thought to be much older and (b) there's precious little else in the work that could be ascribed to Norse influence. Moreover, we find this sort of composition in the earliest attestations of every Indo-European language, even if it later becomes obsolete. (Latin is an excellent example of this.) So I think you might be able to say that these sorts of compounds increased in areas of Norse influence (that's certainly the case in the North of France, for instance), but it's definitely an exaggeration to say that they originate with the Northmen. I however suspect that this could have something to do with the Central and North European influence which arrived to Ireland via south Baltic with of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings .

It seems that these south Baltic people have been living in Ireland and Scotland from at least 4th century AD (the earliest "Viking" type houses were dated from that period, and the latest finds on the crannog in ulster are pushing this to the 2nd century ad). The artefacts and houses are of distinct south Baltic type and not the Norse type. But this influx of central European culture is much older and dates to at least 2500 bc, if we judge by the amber beads discovered in north Cork. And even older if we judge it by the age of central European type stone age structures which first appeared in Central Europe, then in the Baltic and then in Ireland.

For instance, in Ireland you have names like RuaRi which uses word Rua for Red which is very close to Germano Slavic rud, rus and rua and not gaelic derg. In this name you also have adjective before the noun. This might be strange if you believe that all Irish were Gaels. But now that we know that they were not, it becomes something that you would expect to find.
Interestingly enough most toponymes and hydronymes of Celtic origin in central Europe have adjective before the noun. Here are some examples:

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “river” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award). Proto celtic word is awa.

In central Europe there are numerous rivers called Morava.

Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = Mor Awa= big river

Morava is the biggest river in Serbia and also in Czech republic. These rivers gave the name to the territory upper and lower Moravia .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Morava
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_(river)

Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…

In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river") which is the same as Mor Ava just using Gaelic grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore


Belgrade was in the distant past called Singi Dun. In Ireland most town names have word “dun” at the beginning like dun laoghaire.

All of this is very interesting, and forces us, I believe, to make a decision who is a Celt and who is a Gael. I believe from everything I have discovered so far that Gaels were not Celts and that Gaelic language is not a Celtic language. I believe that today’s Irish language has a lot of central European Celtic characteristics, but that they did not come from Gaelic, but from the languages of the Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni. This is why we have the same words and grammar in continental Europe, but only the words in Ireland.
So who are today the real carriers of Celtic language and Culture: Atlantic Bretons, Germanic and West Slavic nations of central Europe, or Gaelic people in Britain? I believe that it is a tossup…

Last edited by dublinviking; 02-05-2013 at 15:52.
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02-05-2013, 19:55   #14
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The references at the end of the page in this link might be worth your while following up.

Particularly,
Larssen,M. and Parker Pearson M. (eds.) 2007. From Stonehenge to the Baltic: cultural diversity in the third millennium BC.
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03-05-2013, 10:58   #15
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While we are here in the vicinity of Belgrade or Singi Dun, i will here repeat what i wrote on another thread here few years ago. At that time i only had a "strong feeling" that there is a link between the Irish and the Serbs.

Irish expression “tar aish” or “tareis” means “after” or “beyond” as in these two sentences:


Ta se deich noimead tar eis a naoi
PRONOUNCED: Taw shay deh no/made tar aish a knee
MEANING: It is ten minutes after nine

Quote:
Slainte go saol agat,
Bean ar do mhian agat.
Leanbh gach blian agat,
is solas na bhflaitheas tareis antsail seo agat.

roughly pronounced:
Slancha ga sheil agat
Ban ir da vian agat
Toluv gan kis agat
Lanov gach blean agat
Iss solas na vlahas taraish antail sha agat.

"Health for life to you,
A wife of your choice to you,
Land without rent to you,
A child every year to you,
And the light of heaven after this world for you."
Near Belgrade there are two villages, Železnik and Vranic, which both have parts called “taraiš” pronounced “taraish” situated after or beyond the village boundaries. These villages are long and narrow situated on top of wavy hills. Zeleznik in Serbian means “iron town” or “iron place” or “iron works” or “smelting plant”. In medieval chronicles the place is described as once being the major iron and silver processing center. Roman sarcophagus belonging to a Decurion from second century was found near the village. This means that Zeleznik was important enough to have a military garrison stationed in it, probably because it was still an metallurgical center in Roman time. Between Zeleznik and Vranic, on another hill which runs parallel to the other two is a village of Sremcica where the iron ore was mined. Old iron mines were discovered there in the middle of the 20th century...


So next to Singi Dun (20 km) there is an important Iron production area, where people call the area beyond the village land taraish -Tar Eis (beyond), and call the village boundary taraba which could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home and here is what those people call their homes:

Kuća - Kutja = house

This word has no etymology in Slavic languages. There is a proposed etymology stemming from word "Kut" which means angle. In Serbian there is a word Kutija which mean angular container, so Kutja could be angular house. And i agree that the first part of the word kutja comes from kut. But i believe that the ending tja comes from Irish word for a house "teach" pronounced "tjak". So kutja becomes kut tjak - angular rectangular house, as opposed to oval house. Is there any evidence that a word "tjak" or "tja" was or is used in the Balkans for a house? There is. In Dalmatia they still say "idem ća" - "idem tja" = i am going home, i am going away. In Serbian there is a word "čatrlja" which means small house made of daub and wattle.
What is also interesting is that in Serbian a word "dom", which is a word for home also has an interesting etymology. In Serbian it can be broken like this:

dom = do + m = do + me = do + mene = to me, what belongs to me, what is with me, next to me = my things = home.

Let's have a look at Irish:

diom (dom)= to, at
mo = me
diom + mo = diommo = diomo = to me, at me, what belongs to me, what surrounds me

I don't believe that this just a coincidence, because it goes on and on and on like this....More to come

ps: Here is a very interesting investigation into original round houses. They look so much like old beehives my grand father used to have...Same principal building technique.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2056782155
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