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09-01-2011, 22:33   #76
parker kent
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Originally Posted by Ficheall View Post
(I'm not trying to use any of this as an argument that "female teachers having affairs with students" is okay - but the 'duty of care' concept has never been entirely clear to me...)
To me the duty of care arises when the person is in a position of care over a potentially vulnerable person. Ditto the power that they may hold over that person. A teacher is supposed to present a safe environment where kids are free to learn and grow. Having sex with them is not giving such an environment.

The official description of the duty of care for teachers in Ireland is as follows. I think having sex with the students would not exactly count as acting like a reasonably prudent parent!

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The following general principles apply:

Teachers must take reasonable care to ensure that their students do not meet with foreseeable injury. They have a duty to protect the children against foreseeable risks of personal injury or harm.

The standard of care is that of a reasonably prudent parent. The degree of care depends on such factors as the age of the students.

There must be an effective system of supervision in operation in the school.
The duty of care applies while the students are on the school premises during school opening hours. It may also apply if the students are present outside of official school hours, e.g., if they arrive early or leave late and the teacher/school has agreed to the students being present

The same duty of care applies if a teacher voluntarily supervises children.

Teachers are required to follow good standards and approved practice. Risky classes and activities require a greater degree of supervision. If goggles, protective clothing, etc., are supplied for certain activities, it is the teacher's duty to ensure that they are worn

Teachers are not insurers and cannot be responsible for every accident in school hours. The courts accept that some accidents will happen no matter how well supervision is carried out and, in such cases, the teacher/school cannot be held liable.
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09-01-2011, 22:42   #77
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What about when one goes to University? Assuming the student is of legal age, should that duty of care argument prevent a teacher and student hooking up? Where does one draw the line?
I've had one attractive lecturer in my time at university. She was doing a postdoc, quite young, attractive. Had she, or the opportunity, presented themself, I would not have seen anything wrong in having a relationship with her, as it were. It might have made things a little awkward if people found out, granted, but that would be up to us to consider.
What about lab demonstrators and tutors who may easily be the same age as the students?

(I'm not trying to use any of this as an argument that "female teachers having affairs with students" is okay - but the 'duty of care' concept has never been entirely clear to me...)
And if you had ended up in a relationship with her, would she have been able to guarantee it wouldn't have changed the nature of her teaching role with you? She wouldn't have graded you easier, or given you tips about what's coming up in an exam?
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09-01-2011, 23:07   #78
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Any teacher having an affair with a student is wrong in my view...

Thinking back to my own school days and I would rather have poked my eyes out with a sharp stick than go near any of them...
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09-01-2011, 23:14   #79
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Originally Posted by Ficheall View Post

(I'm not trying to use any of this as an argument that "female teachers having affairs with students" is okay - but the 'duty of care' concept has never been entirely clear to me...)
It probably is in the same category as sleeping with your boss.

If everything goes OK , then it is great, it is when it doesn't that there is a problem.

The risk to the member of staff is that if it does they face a sexual harrassment issue which a normal person would not want.
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10-01-2011, 01:05   #80
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And if you had ended up in a relationship with her, would she have been able to guarantee it wouldn't have changed the nature of her teaching role with you? She wouldn't have graded you easier, or given you tips about what's coming up in an exam?
Hot swedish blonde > few extra marks in a piss-easy subject, to be honest.

But fine - I won't have sex with any of the people in my tutorials.
sigh...
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10-01-2011, 01:28   #81
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I 'spose it is very academic unless you get someone saying well I was in the situation or my friend was sleeping with an underage guy and I intervened/did not intervene.
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10-01-2011, 01:39   #82
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You don't need new laws, just enforce what's there

Give them the same consequences if it was a male teacher with a female student. But then legal ages are different

In the event the law is different I'd say

If the student is underage, charge the teacher and bring them to court.
If the student is of age, dismiss the teacher
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10-01-2011, 11:26   #83
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Hot swedish blonde > few extra marks in a piss-easy subject, to be honest.
I didn't say marks were your motivation for wanting to do it. That's irrelevant. The problem is that any kind of relationship makes it impossible for her to remain objective. Part of her job description is to treat all students fairly and equally. She can't do that if she's sleeping with one of them. And even if she could, it would raise still attract resentment from the rest of the class

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But fine - I won't have sex with any of the people in my tutorials.
sigh...
Go ahead, just prepare to be fired.
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10-01-2011, 14:07   #84
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I'm a teacher, mainly 16 + and Further Education, and although many of my students are 18 and over, there is not a chance in hell that I would ever even consider having a relationship with one of them! Apart from the ethical concerns, and professional repercussions, my students are sooo young to me, both emotionally and physically. I'm 30 BTW.

Many of my male students have asked me out, or have made comments of a sexual nature to me (before anyone freaks out, some of the work I have done has been in education centres with troubled teens, so many of them are doing it to provoke a reaction, or for attention - even negative, so it's generally managed there and then, as opposed to how it would be handled in a formal school setting).

I am involved in the emotional and educational development of my students, and there is just no way a situation like that would be allowed to arise in my classroom. Even if the student is the one attempting to initiate such a relationship, I am the professional, and couldn't fathom why any adult would want to have a relationship with a student (or child) in their care, regardless of the age difference.
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Originally Posted by 28064212 View Post
I didn't say marks were your motivation for wanting to do it. That's irrelevant. The problem is that any kind of relationship makes it impossible for her to remain objective. Part of her job description is to treat all students fairly and equally. She can't do that if she's sleeping with one of them. And even if she could, it would raise still attract resentment from the rest of the class


Go ahead, just prepare to be fired.
These kind of nail a lot of it down for me - its about values and ethics and safety.

Education is about learning , growth & development for the student & not for intimate relationships by the teacher/carer.

And, those values/rules should be enforced irrespective of gender.

The huge question hanging off the cliff here is whether or not it happens here in ireland ?

Last edited by CDfm; 10-01-2011 at 14:09.
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11-01-2011, 17:42   #85
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Legally they're safer going for 40 year old women - 14 year old boys can be charged with statutory rape of a 14 year old girl, once they become adults. Ironically, while the 40 year old woman can be charged with molestation of a minor, she cannot similarly be charged with statutory rape of the 14 year old boy.
Technically, nobody can be charged with statutory rape in Ireland—because the term "statutory rape" is not used in the legislation. However, the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2006 states, in relation to children under 15:

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Any person who engages in a sexual act with a child who is under the age of 15 years shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life or a lesser term of imprisonment.
And in relation to children under 17:

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Any person who engages in a sexual act with a child who is under the age of 17 years shall be guilty of an offence and shall, subject to subsection (3), be liable on conviction on indictment— (a) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years, or (b) if he or she is a person in authority, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years.
Your hypothetical 40-year-old female teacher who sleeps with a 14-year-old boy could in fact face up to life in prison. If the student was over 15 but under 17, she (who, as a teacher, would be seen as a "person in authority") could be imprisoned for up to ten years. Exactly the same charges and sentences would be faced by a male teacher who slept with an underage girl.

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The Sexual Offences Act 2006, also specifically states that a female child under the age of 17 is not guilty of any offense under the act. No such provision is made for male children under the age of 17 and they are thus liable.
The discrepancy exists because the girl can become pregnant. If the law disregarded gender, the very fact of a pregnancy could be adduced as evidence to prove a girl guilty of a criminal offense—meaning that a girl who had become pregnant by her underage boyfriend might be less likely to seek antenatal care and might even resort to a backstreet abortion in an effort to evade the criminal charge of having engaged in sexual activity with a minor. As such, legislators deem it to be in the best interest of girls and their hypothetical unborn children not to criminalise sexual activity by female minors.

It should be noted that if an 18-year-old girl has sex with a 16-year-old boy, she can be charged for "engaging in a sexual act with a child who is under the age of 17 years," while he cannot be charged.

Last edited by Permabear; 11-01-2011 at 17:46.
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11-01-2011, 18:05   #86
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Your hypothetical 40-year-old female teacher who sleeps with a 14-year-old boy could in fact face up to life in prison.
I'm afraid not always:

"[Judge Reynolds] pointed out that the maximum sentence she can hand down under this legislation is a term of seven years in prison.

'Had this being a case of a male person being convicted - a much longer sentence would be allowed under more recently amended legislation. A man convicted of incest can be jailed up to a maximum of a life sentence,' she said."


http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0122/roscommon.html

If course, that appertains to cases of incest, but what is more worrying is that this discrimination is as a result of "recently amended legislation".
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The discrepancy exists because the girl can become pregnant. If the law disregarded gender, the very fact of a pregnancy could be adduced as evidence to prove a girl guilty of a criminal offense—meaning that a girl who had become pregnant by her underage boyfriend might be less likely to seek antenatal care and might even resort to a backstreet abortion in an effort to evade the criminal charge of having engaged in sexual activity with a minor.
Which is of course utterly ridiculous, because as I posted earlier, neither should be charged. It is a disgusting, sexist law - effectively you've just admitted that it is just pleading the belly.
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11-01-2011, 18:45   #87
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I'm afraid not always:
Now you are introducing an incest case, which the judge was compelled to deal with under the Punishment of Incest Act 1908 and the Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) Act 1995, not the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2006. Unless the teacher is also the student's parent or sibling, what relevance does this case have to the topic of the thread?

To be clear, you stated above that a female teacher who slept with an underage male student would face lesser charges than a male teacher who slept with an underage female student. This is not true.

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Which is of course utterly ridiculous, because as I posted earlier, neither should be charged.
I'm not defending the legislation hook, line, and sinker. While I certainly believe that children deserve adequate legislative protection from adult sexual predators, I'm also happy to make a sensible exceptions—as many other countries do—for minors who are sexually active with others in their age group. Above, I was just explaining the justification for the law as it is currently written.

Last edited by Permabear; 12-01-2011 at 05:33.
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11-01-2011, 19:42   #88
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Notice how when its a female teacher and a student its always refereed to as "an affair" or "a romance" rather that it being presented as rape, or abuse.
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11-01-2011, 21:09   #89
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Notice how when its a female teacher and a student its always refereed to as "an affair" or "a romance" rather that it being presented as rape, or abuse.
Certainly, yes—if a 16-year-old boy is sleeping with his 28-year-old teacher, there will be a tendency to portray him as something of a Jack the Lad character. For example, Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher" music video from the 1980s (possibly NSFW) was happy to represent the sexy teacher as every teenage boy's wet dream:



Even today, we struggle to understand this as sexual assault; we see it as an opportunity for the opportunistic teenage boy to fulfill his fantasies with an experienced older woman. Only when the genders are reversed do we see the student as the victim of a predatory adult.
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11-01-2011, 21:15   #90
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Certainly, yes—if a 16-year-old boy is sleeping with his 28-year-old teacher, there will be a tendency to portray him as something of a Jack the Lad character. For example, Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher" music video from the 1980s (possibly NSFW) was happy to represent the sexy teacher as every teenage boy's wet dream:



Even today, we struggle to understand this as sexual assault; we see it as an opportunity for the opportunistic teenage boy to fulfill his fantasies with an experienced older woman. Only when the genders are reversed do we see the student as the victim of a predatory adult.

Its the same thing when female sex tourism is reported they are said to be "looking for romance" while a male sex tourist as we all know is evil. I do think there is a complete over reaction when it comes to male teacher with female student and a complete under-reaction when it is the other way around.
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