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To Spay or not to Spay?

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  • 29-10-2010 10:17am
    #1
    sellerbarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭


    Hi all. Our little 9 month old shih tzu has just finished her first heat. She is a house dog and only goes outside on lead a couple of times a day and the odd time around off lead around garden/beach etc. Is it the done thing to get a dog spayed even though we will do our utmost to keep her celibate wink.gif? I don't really want to have her in pain if I don't have to.
    Thanks in advance.


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    #2
    andreac
    Registered Users Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭andreac


    Yes absolutely get her spayed. Unless you intend to breed from her she should be spayed.
    Every time she has a season her chances of getting Pyometra are increased which is a very serious condition and a lot of times can be fatal.

    It cuts down the chances of her getting mammary cancers in later life.

    When she comes into season she also has the chance of having a phantom pregnancy then after her season so if you spay her you will cut out all of these risks.

    Spaying a dog is a very routine operation and they recover in no time so please , please have your dog spayed.


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    #3
    lorebringer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭lorebringer


    ^^^ THIS!

    Spaying is far more practical and better for your dog in the long run than not spaying. You won't have to deal the the hassle of her coming into heat and the worry if she ends up with a oestrogen related cancer when she is older. She won't be at risk for all the health issues related to being intact and once she gets over the op she won't know the difference!

    I have had a bitch in my care with pyometra and it was really hard on the poor thing. She was very ill even after the op (the treatment is emergency spay) and was on lots of medication afterwards. She was 2/3 ish at the time so it's not only an older bitch problem. Mammary cancer is very serious in older bitches and generally fatal because they aren't usually caught early.

    As well as she is looked after and supervised during her heats, dogs have a way of finding bitches on season that can be very surprising. The will mate through fences, dig under walls, break out of and into gardens, scale boundaries that look impossible, become very aggressive, hang around for hours outside houses... all because they can smell a bitch in heat. And the clean up on your side with her can be an awful pain. From a sheer "stress free existence" point of view on your part, spaying is the best option.

    Now is the perfect time to make see your vet and make an appointment to have her spayed. Usually, it's standard practice to get them done half way between heats - about 2.5 months after her first day of heat - so that her hormones are low and it has as little impact on her as possible.


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    #4
    sellerbarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭sellerbarry


    Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.;)


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    #5
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I nearly lost a dog to a breast tumour. Had she of been spayed the chances of getting it would of been hugely reduced.


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    #6
    boxerly
    Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭boxerly


    spay,spay,spay :)


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    #7
    Sigma Force
    Registered Users Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Sigma Force


    Agree, deffo spay. Vets will usually give a long acting pain killer so the dog might be a bit sore but she shouldn't be in pain, you can always ask for a pain killer tablet for the following day just in case you find she's still sore.
    Most dogs bounce back straight away.
    It saves so much hassle in the long run.


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    #8
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    Hopefully sometime in the future the same ideas can be applied to human females, I mean why risk your daughter getting cervical cancer or something else because she was not spayed, I would say just Let the dog remain in its natural form unless you have a specific reason for spaying her, cancer in dogs is just as common as in humans so bear that in mind with what ever course of action you choose to take.


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    #9
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Ok we are all trying to be nice here but that is a ridiculous comparison.

    Leave the dog to have unwanted puppies & an unnecessary risk of preventable disease. Why ?.

    Maybe you don't want Grandchildren.

    Btw Did you get a rescue Spitz ?. If so was he/she neutered ?.


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    #10
    sellerbarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭sellerbarry


    Just out of curiosity. Is there anyone here who didn't go the spaying route and if not, how did your dogs get on in the long run? There is a possibility that we might want her to have pups in the future. I think it's only natural to leave her the way she was born.;)


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    #11
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Yes when I got one of mine she was not spayed, because she never got to a rescue. I had never been a fan of spaying & I knew that she was not going to have pups.

    She loves laying on my lap for a tummy rub. One day I felt a tiny lump that felt just like a rice crispy just under the skin. I took her to the Vet who spayed her & removed the lump which turned out to be a highly malignant tumour. Ten days later during her stitch removal we found a second one so she had a second operation the next day.

    I learned that this type of tumour is the most common killer of female dogs. It "feeds" on the dog's hormones & grows rapidly as the dog approaches a season. This tiny lump would of grown to the size of a walnut in three months & spread to the rest of her body. Had she of been spayed the chances of getting this type of tumour would of dropped to virtually zero.

    I still have one dog awaiting a spay which will be done soon. Season time is a total nightmare in that walking is virtually impossible as she is surrounded by randy males that hang around the house.

    If you have a female dog & she is not spayed you must feel all over her underside for the tiniest lump about once per week. I was very lucky as she is fully recovered but I cannot stress how small & inoffensive the lump appeared to be.

    The idea that a bitch should be allowed a litter before spaying is a myth.


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    #12
    sral1
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭sral1


    Yes I have many bitches. I dont spay as a rule. Only spayed 2 bitches in my life so far . Both of them were dead within 2 months of been spayed. All my other bitches lived happy healthy lives well into their twlight years. If you are a responsible owner it is not an issue.
    sellerbarry wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity. Is there anyone here who didn't go the spaying route and if not, how did your dogs get on in the long run? There is a possibility that we might want her to have pups in the future. I think it's only natural to leave her the way she was born.;)


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    #13
    sellerbarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 776 ✭✭✭sellerbarry


    sral1 wrote: »
    Yes I have many bitches. I dont spay as a rule. Only spayed 2 bitches in my life so far . Both of them were dead within 2 months of been spayed. All my other bitches lived happy healthy lives well into their twlight years. If you are a responsible owner it is not an issue.
    Hi. Thanks. I was waiting for someone to half agree with what i wanted. Did your bitches have pups or not? I would like to think I am a responsible owner. She wants for nothing. Is well house trained and gets plenty of walks/grooming etc.;)


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    #14
    GalwayKiefer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭GalwayKiefer


    sral1 wrote: »
    Only spayed 2 bitches in my life so far . Both of them were dead within 2 months of been spayed.

    As a result of complications from the spaying operations?


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    #15
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    sellerbarry wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity. Is there anyone here who didn't go the spaying route and if not, how did your dogs get on in the long run? There is a possibility that we might want her to have pups in the future. I think it's only natural to leave her the way she was born.;)

    While I am against premature spaying, I do think it is necessary. Dogs spayed before 2 and half greatly reduce the risks of mammary, uterine, cervical and ovarian tumours which are all estrogen receptors as well as eliminating the risk of pyometra.
    I've had an intact GSD suffer from mammary tumours and an intact Chihuahua suffer from pyometra. Both are nasty conditions which could have been prevented.

    sellerbarry wrote: »
    Hi. Thanks. I was waiting for someone to half agree with what i wanted. Did your bitches have pups or not? I would like to think I am a responsible owner. She wants for nothing. Is well house trained and gets plenty of walks/grooming etc.;)

    My GSD that I mentioned above had pups before I owned her, she still got mammary tumours.
    I'm glad you are a responsible owner because of course you'll be showing / working your dog (depending on the breed) and doing all the relevant health testing associated with the breed of your dog before you breed her.


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    #16
    boomerang
    Registered Users Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭boomerang


    If you don't spay her there is a very good chance she will develop pyometra (infection of her uterus) which can be deadly if the infection leaks into the abdomen as the dog will develop peritonitis. Usually pyometra is dealt with by an emergency spay, so your dog gets spayed anyways but under far riskier circumstances.

    Cancer is actually more common in purebred dogs than it is in humans and of all the cancers, those of the reproductive system are particularly rife. It is probable that your dog will develop mammary cancer (cancer of the breast tissue) which requires a very invasive, painful operation called a mammary strip.

    I'm honestly not trying to terrify you - of course there is a small chance your dog won't experience any of the above in her lifetime, but the risks are there and they are high. You're also going to have the twice-yearly nuisance of vaginal discharge that stains, a restless dog, possible phantom pregnancies (which are very distressing) and if you live in a neighbourhood where other people let their dogs out to wander, you'll have a host of randy, determined, pesky male dogs camped out around your house for six weeks of the year.

    I agree with you that in an ideal world we would leave our dogs as nature intended but with the world we live in, I do think it is better to spay. I really don't think anyone should be breeding unless they have a full history of the dog's bloodlines as hereditary diseases are so common. You don't know yet what problems are going to crop up in your dog as she is still so young - it could be luxating patellas, for example. I think it is morally wrong to inflict these painful diseases on the dog's offspring.

    Incidentally, with modern anaesthesia and analgesics, your dog will experience very little pain as a result of her spay. She'll receive long-acting pain relief on the day of the op, and can have Metacam or similiar in the days after if there is any swelling or discomfort. The earlier the spay, the easier the operation and the smaller the incision. ;)


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    #17
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    sral1 wrote: »
    Both of them were dead within 2 months of been spayed.

    Really within 8 weeks !. From what causes ?. They would of been young dogs. I am lucky in that I have a brilliant, modern Vet who saved my dogs life. It would of been easy to assume that two tumours in two weeks merited a PTS but I took the Vet's advice.

    How many bitches do you have ?.

    Irushe the evidence that I have seen & the opinion of my Vet is that a spay gives maximum protection if done before the first season. As each season passes the degree of protection decreases.


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    #18
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    Irushe the evidence that I have seen & the opinion of my Vet is that a spay gives maximum protection if done before the first season. As each season passes the degree of protection decreases.

    Maxium protection against pyometra and yes there is about a 2% increase of mammary cancers after each season a bitch is allowed to have, I do agree with that. However what concerns me is the affect early s/neutering has on bone growth and the increase in other illnesses. I think the information people are given on early s/neutering is very one-sided, people should be given all the information to make an balanced decision. I am 100% in favour of s/neutering but not before a dog is mature.
    I've had this discussion previously:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055960117


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    #19
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    You wouldn't believe how determined males can be to get at a female in heat. We had a bitch when I was a child and we didn't spay her because we thought it was unnecessary. Needless to say that after her second litter, both fathered by dogs who had scaled a 6 foot wall, she was down to the vet straight away.


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    #20
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Irushe. I agree with you that they needs to be a balance. As I said before I was not radically pro neuter. I also agree that the Vets have got into an early neuter regime but I suspect that they are just trying to strike whilst the iron is hot. If you tell someone to delay a neuter they may just forget about it.

    It is also understandable that the Vets have to adapt to the majority, which is thousands of unwanted dogs, rather than the fewer responsible owners. My Vet asked about when I was going to neuter the pup. As my other girl will be spayed shortly I will not need to neuter & I may not, as I am not aware of any specific heath reasons regarding males.

    The problem is that whilst I can absolutely guarantee that my guy will not father offspring, a huge number of males will. So I believe that, until our PTS figures are on par with Scotland ie below 1000, the Vets are right to heavily encourage neutering for males.


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    #21
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    Irushe. I agree with you that they needs to be a balance. As I said before I was not radically pro neuter. I also agree that the Vets have got into an early neuter regime but I suspect that they are just trying to strike whilst the iron is hot. If you tell someone to delay a neuter they may just forget about it.

    It is also understandable that the Vets have to adapt to the majority, which is thousands of unwanted dogs, rather than the fewer responsible owners. My Vet asked about when I was going to neuter the pup. As my other girl will be spayed shortly I will not need to neuter & I may not, as I am not aware of any specific heath reasons regarding males.

    The problem is that whilst I can absolutely guarantee that my guy will not father offspring, a huge number of males will. So I believe that, until our PTS figures are on par with Scotland ie below 1000, the Vets are right to heavily encourage neutering for males.

    Oh and don't get me wrong I completely agree and I think we are more or less singing off the same hymn sheet, I would rather a dog be s/neutered at 6 months than have an unwanted litter. Thus my advice (and personal opinion) is if you can't keep your dog 100% secure, s/neuter early, if you can guarantee your dogs' security let them mature before s/neutering. I have 3 dogs, the 2 older ones were s/neuter once they matured, my Rottie will be done as soon as she does.


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    #22
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    lrushe wrote: »
    Oh and don't get me wrong I completely agree and I think we are more or less singing off the same hymn sheet, I would rather a dog be s/neutered at 6 months than have an unwanted litter. Thus my advice (and personal opinion) is if you can't keep your dog 100% secure, s/neuter early, if you can guarantee your dogs' security let them mature before s/neutering. I have 3 dogs, the 2 older ones were s/neuter once they matured, my Rottie will be done as soon as she does.

    Rottie - that will be some anaesthetic bill !.


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    #23
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    Rottie - that will be some anaesthetic bill !.

    Tell me about it, however in this breed above almost any other I think early s/neuter is detrimental due to the high cases of Osteosarcoma found in the breed.


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    #24
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    My little lad keep licking his walnuts - must be telepathic !. As with most treatments there are few yes no answers. But the Vets Ispca etc have to put forward a common principle. How many will it take to get her onto the table ?.


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    #25
    mosi
    Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭mosi


    My boy is booked to be neutered next week, and I must admit I'm a bit apprehensive. In my family growing up, we always had bitches spayed but left dogs entire. Two of those guys are almost 13 now, and thankfully have not had any of the male specific diseases that neutering is supposed to prevent.
    I guess I have decided to go down the neutering route, in part because there appears to be a stigma about leaving them entire. I guess I'm also thinking about the future, if we get him a companion. This isn't on the cards at the mo, but I guess I am worried that rescues would consider me somehow irresponsible if he was left unneutered.
    Of course, I have no intention of ever breeding from my guy. He isn't allowed out by himself and is only let off the lead when out for walks in the country or beach (we live in the city). Therefore, the chances of an accident happening are extremely low, and the argument that neutering stops them roaming doesn't really sway me as he is never in a position to roam.
    I understand that the chances of testicular cancer are eliminated (for obvious reasons), and that prostate problems are reduced although I have also heard claims to the contrary on that.
    BTW, he is around 2 and a half years old (he's a rescue from the pound). Does this have any bearing on the effects of neutering? Having not had a male neutered before, I guess I'm also worried about the perceived idea that a dog's personality is changed somehow after. I know this is supposedly a myth but I guess I would like some reassurance here! He is quite a little nutter :D, a total livewire, and I want him to stay that way!
    So, with a few days to go before the point of no return, I would love to hear some more opinions on male neutering


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    #26
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I wouldn't because you are unsure. Like you I have never had a male neutered & I can guarantee that none of mine have been fathers. I don't think that it would influence a rescue's decision. If it does then there are plenty of other ways to rescue a dog. Because of very understandable Vet practice it's can be quiet difficult to get an objective opinion - even from my Vet & she's a friend.

    Some friends of mine had their Pug neutered. When my mate went to collect the dog he was amazed that "the two veg" had gone - he was imagining a little snip. My Vet pointed out that he could have some false ones & showed him a catalogue with different sizes !. He joked that it was tempting to have "some big buggers" put in just to see people's reactions.

    I don't know about the personality thing but it can effect the way that they relate to other dogs. One of my females is the younger & not neutered. She has become the boss since the older female was neutered.


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    #27
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    How many will it take to get her onto the table ?.

    Sorry, how many what???


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    #28
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,822 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    lrushe wrote: »
    Sorry, how many what???

    People !. I had a phone call one day as I was passing my Vets. I was told to come back & lend a hand. That was a Rottie & it took four of us to get him onto the operating table. They seem to weigh so much more when they are unconscious.


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    #29
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    mosi wrote: »
    My boy is booked to be neutered next week, and I must admit I'm a bit apprehensive. In my family growing up, we always had bitches spayed but left dogs entire. Two of those guys are almost 13 now, and thankfully have not had any of the male specific diseases that neutering is supposed to prevent.
    I guess I have decided to go down the neutering route, in part because there appears to be a stigma about leaving them entire. I guess I'm also thinking about the future, if we get him a companion. This isn't on the cards at the mo, but I guess I am worried that rescues would consider me somehow irresponsible if he was left unneutered.
    Of course, I have no intention of ever breeding from my guy. He isn't allowed out by himself and is only let off the lead when out for walks in the country or beach (we live in the city). Therefore, the chances of an accident happening are extremely low, and the argument that neutering stops them roaming doesn't really sway me as he is never in a position to roam.
    I understand that the chances of testicular cancer are eliminated (for obvious reasons), and that prostate problems are reduced although I have also heard claims to the contrary on that.
    BTW, he is around 2 and a half years old (he's a rescue from the pound). Does this have any bearing on the effects of neutering? Having not had a male neutered before, I guess I'm also worried about the perceived idea that a dog's personality is changed somehow after. I know this is supposedly a myth but I guess I would like some reassurance here! He is quite a little nutter :D, a total livewire, and I want him to stay that way!
    So, with a few days to go before the point of no return, I would love to hear some more opinions on male neutering

    From what I can see there isn't a whole lot of medical reasons for neutering a male dog. My Spitz is neutered because I also have 2 bitches and I don't spay until the bitches are fulling grow and that can include 2-3 seasons so my Spitz was neutered at 5 years old to avoid any accidents.
    As for his personality it never changed, like I said he was 5 when he was neutered so his personality was more or less set at that stage.


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    #30
    lrushe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭lrushe


    Discodog wrote: »
    People !. I had a phone call one day as I was passing my Vets. I was told to come back & lend a hand. That was a Rottie & it took four of us to get him onto the operating table. They seem to weigh so much more when they are unconscious.

    Not sure how many people it will take but I used to volunteer in my vets so I can lend a hand if he needed. Brook is pretty small even for a bitch (19ins, 61lbs) so I can't forsee any problems, plus I keep her lean as she does agility.


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    #31
    boomerang
    Registered Users Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭boomerang


    Our family dog growing up wasn't neutered and did develop testicular cancer when he got older - I remember one of his testicles being hugely enlarged and he had to be neutered, which at his advanced age carried a far greater risk of anaesthetic death.


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