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07-01-2011, 16:59   #196
nPlusOne
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The Bible is not always literal translation of history, the bible openly uses parables and metaphors to explain concepts, have you not read the book of revelations where the prophet does not understand the signs and symbols, an angel has to decrypt the metaphors. Genesis is allegorical.
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07-01-2011, 17:18   #197
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The DNA Project use Adam & Eve as references to the first people, I use Eden as a reference to the diaspora from the sahara.
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08-01-2011, 11:21   #198
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Link to DNA forums piece

Fontanalis

Would you have time to give the link to the piece you qouted on page 13?

"Here is something from the DNA Forums website. The author no longer posts there but it seems he was well respected for his archaeological knowledge.



It’s not surprising that you are having trouble with the Iberian idea. Its nonsense. It’s been rejected by archaeologists, historians, classicists, Celtic studies experts, linguists etc for several decades. It is essentially based on nothing but the Irish invasion legends. The latter were written by monks writing in a classical tradition whereby a history or ethnology is put together by trying to connect tribes and places with similar names and linking them. Often when modern linguists look at them the etymology is completely nonsensical. In the case of the Milesian myth the word linking was Hibernia=Iberia, Scoti=Scythia etc etc. The legend is full of people given names to represent ancient names for the Irish - Goidel Glass (Goidel-Gael), an Egyptian princess 'Scota' or similar.

............"
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08-01-2011, 15:21   #199
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It is accepted by contemporary archaeologists that the people of the sahara, in question, migrated east and formed the first tomb building civilization in Egypt. The cows reference says that cows where first domesticated in North Africa.
And where is your reference for this? Who are these "contemporary archaeologists"?

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Bizarre R1B populations live in North Cameroon FACT
Reference?

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Stonehenge created by people using boats, transporting stone from Welsh Coast FACT
Reference?

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DNA of some Ancient Europeans comes from North Africa, Haplogroup E's migration into Europe through the levant corridor. FACT
Reference?

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The DNA Project use Adam & Eve as references to the first people, I use Eden as a reference to the diaspora from the sahara.
No actually, Adam and Eve are not used as reference to the first people. Mitochondrial Eve is used to reference the most recent female from who all modern people share her Mt DNA, and Y-Chrosome Adam is the most recent male from where all modern men share their Y-Chromosomes. Nowhere near being the first people, and they were not contemporary with each other.
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08-01-2011, 15:41   #200
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Fontanalis

Would you have time to give the link to the piece you qouted on page 13?

"Here is something from the DNA Forums website. The author no longer posts there but it seems he was well respected for his archaeological knowledge.



It’s not surprising that you are having trouble with the Iberian idea. Its nonsense. It’s been rejected by archaeologists, historians, classicists, Celtic studies experts, linguists etc for several decades. It is essentially based on nothing but the Irish invasion legends. The latter were written by monks writing in a classical tradition whereby a history or ethnology is put together by trying to connect tribes and places with similar names and linking them. Often when modern linguists look at them the etymology is completely nonsensical. In the case of the Milesian myth the word linking was Hibernia=Iberia, Scoti=Scythia etc etc. The legend is full of people given names to represent ancient names for the Irish - Goidel Glass (Goidel-Gael), an Egyptian princess 'Scota' or similar.

............"
Below is the link, you will have to sign up to the forum to view it though. It's about half way down. You can see it was quoted by someone else as the author removed his own posts.

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...goidel__st__40

Last edited by fontanalis; 08-01-2011 at 15:44.
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09-01-2011, 09:33   #201
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fontanalis

thanks very much for that.

I've only been able to give this thread a skim; but I think it's very interesting to analyse this issue (prehistorically and historically.)

Maybe another title for this thread could be 'The first "Irish" people'?.

Zoologists warn against anthropomorphising non-human animal life.

Just as historians warn against 'Nationalising' the history of our our little geographical territory?
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24-01-2011, 11:38   #202
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The R1b found in Cameroon is a different branch of R1b, there are multiple sub-branches as can be seen on the Haplogroup Tree for R.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

The Western European R1b is mostly made up of the P312 clade (R1b1b2a1a2). African R1b is marked by the V88 clade (R1b1a)

This points that both shared a comman male ancestor at a very early stage. V88 isn't found in Europe apart from in recent immigrants and is tied with the expansion of the Chadic languages in Africa.

Within P312 there are several distinct subclades. The most common in Ireland is L21 (R1b1b2a1a2f) which is found from Ireland in the west to Austria in the east (very common in France). It's been postulated that the expansion of L21 is tied with that of Celtic languages. In Ireland there are a number of sub-clades of L21 that are tied to specific Irish septs/tribes.

For example M222 (R1b1b2a1a2f2) is tied to the Uí Neill and the Uí Briúin and the Uí Fiachra which are both branches of the ancient Connachta (supposedly descended from the half brothers Niall,Brion and Fiachra).

L226 (R1b1b2a1a2f4) appears to be the signature of the Dál gCais, it's reported in men who bear Dál gCais surnames including "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin)

I myself am just plain old L21* I haven't tested positive for any of the let discovered sub-clades under L21.

Germanic R1b is mostly in another P312 clade. This is S28/U152 (R1b1b2a1a2d) which has a very high incidence in the Netherlands. The other major haplogroup among the Germanics is I2b which is interesting as linguists often consider that Germanic languages has been heavily influenced by a non Indo-European language.

In Ireland 90% of men are R1b most of remaining 10% belong to haplogroup I specificially I1 which appears to be that of the pre-celtic speaking male population. Irish men who are I2b are showing potential Germanic ancestory (be that viking/Norman/English/Palatine German)

Some have postulated that the Centum/Satem spilt in Indo-European languages are connected with difference between R1a and R1b. For example most Satem language populations are high in R1a (slavic/baltic/Indic/Iranic) whereas R1b is high in Centum languages (Celtic/Germanic/Italic)

Last edited by dubhthach; 24-01-2011 at 11:41.
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24-01-2011, 14:31   #203
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The R1b found in Cameroon is a different branch of R1b, there are multiple sub-branches as can be seen on the Haplogroup Tree for R.
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

The Western European R1b is mostly made up of the P312 clade (R1b1b2a1a2). African R1b is marked by the V88 clade (R1b1a)

This points that both shared a comman male ancestor at a very early stage. V88 isn't found in Europe apart from in recent immigrants and is tied with the expansion of the Chadic languages in Africa.

Within P312 there are several distinct subclades. The most common in Ireland is L21 (R1b1b2a1a2f) which is found from Ireland in the west to Austria in the east (very common in France). It's been postulated that the expansion of L21 is tied with that of Celtic languages. In Ireland there are a number of sub-clades of L21 that are tied to specific Irish septs/tribes.

For example M222 (R1b1b2a1a2f2) is tied to the Uí Neill and the Uí Briúin and the Uí Fiachra which are both branches of the ancient Connachta (supposedly descended from the half brothers Niall,Brion and Fiachra).

L226 (R1b1b2a1a2f4) appears to be the signature of the Dál gCais, it's reported in men who bear Dál gCais surnames including "The O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin)

I myself am just plain old L21* I haven't tested positive for any of the let discovered sub-clades under L21.

Germanic R1b is mostly in another P312 clade. This is S28/U152 (R1b1b2a1a2d) which has a very high incidence in the Netherlands. The other major haplogroup among the Germanics is I2b which is interesting as linguists often consider that Germanic languages has been heavily influenced by a non Indo-European language.

In Ireland 90% of men are R1b most of remaining 10% belong to haplogroup I specificially I1 which appears to be that of the pre-celtic speaking male population. Irish men who are I2b are showing potential Germanic ancestory (be that viking/Norman/English/Palatine German)

Some have postulated that the Centum/Satem spilt in Indo-European languages are connected with difference between R1a and R1b. For example most Satem language populations are high in R1a (slavic/baltic/Indic/Iranic) whereas R1b is high in Centum languages (Celtic/Germanic/Italic)
Isn't there also a grouping which appears mainly on the East Coast? I sent my sample to 23 and me a few weeks ago, hopefully on a few weeks I'll get it back.
R1b is oh my god like so 2005; E or J would be good.
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24-01-2011, 15:02   #204
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Isn't there also a grouping which appears mainly on the East Coast? I sent my sample to 23 and me a few weeks ago, hopefully on a few weeks I'll get it back.
R1b is oh my god like so 2005; E or J would be good.
Well when it comes to Y-Chromosome STR (short tandem repeats) there are a number of Irish clusters. So far at least two of these clusters have been tied to SNP (Single-nucleotide polymorphism) such as M222 or L226.

All of these clusters as far as I know are L21 here's a list that I know of:
  • Uí Neill cluster (M222) -- Irish Northwestern Modal
  • Dal gCais cluster (L226) -- Irish Type III cluster
  • Laigin Cluster (no distinct SNP let)
  • South Irish cluster (no distinct SNP let)
  • Airghialla cluster (no distinct SNP let)

Someone who is in say the Uí Neill cluster will have STR markings close to this: M5UKQ

If they then did SNP testing would probably show them as M222+, 23andme doesn't test for STR's but for SNP's so depending on list of SNP's on their chip you might be able to get quite exact data on your y-chromosome.

I've tested with Familytreedna, have results of over 95 STR's but I don't have any matches in their database with anyone within the last 6 generations, I also don't belong to any clusters. As part of my testing I've done deep clade SNP testing. Which has shown I'm just L21+

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P312+ L21+ M222- M37- P66- L96- L130- L144- L159.2- L192- L193- L195- L226- P314.2- L9- L10-, L69-
I've also did a test with 23andme in early december and should hopefully get the result by the end of the week. Good thing about 23andme is they do testing on your autosomal DNA (all 23 pairs not just the X/Y) as well as Mitochondrial (female line).

There's a very interesting project been run called "The Dodecad project" where they take your 23andme raw data and tell you the exact break down of your autosomal DNA (population admixture). For example the Irish members (8) of project break down on average as:
Northern European: 64.9%
Southern European: 26.7%
West Asian: 7.8%
South Asian: 0.6%

Image (click for bigger)


Regarding haplogroup E and J those would be quite exotic in an Irish context, E is generally linked with Africans and Southern Europeans whereas J is extremely comon among Semetic population (Jews/arabs). As an Irish person if you don't test R1b highest probability would be haplogroup I. It does look that some names associated with the ruling families of the Ulad/Dál nAraide/Cruithne are haplogroup I.
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24-01-2011, 15:12   #205
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Well when it comes to Y-Chromosome STR (short tandem repeats) there are a number of Irish clusters. So far at least two of these clusters have been tied to SNP (Single-nucleotide polymorphism) such as M222 or L226.


All of these clusters as far as I know are L21 here's a list that I know of:
  • Uí Neill cluster (M222) -- Irish Northwestern Modal
  • Dal gCais cluster (L226) -- Irish Type III cluster
  • Laigin Cluster (no distinct SNP let)
  • South Irish cluster (no distinct SNP let)
  • Airghialla cluster (no distinct SNP let)
Someone who is in say the Uí Neill cluster will have STR markings close to this: M5UKQ

If they then did SNP testing would probably show them as M222+, 23andme doesn't test for STR's but for SNP's so depending on list of SNP's on their chip you might be able to get quite exact data on your y-chromosome.

I've tested with Familytreedna, have results of over 95 STR's but I don't have any matches in their database with anyone within the last 6 generations, I also don't belong to any clusters. As part of my testing I've done deep clade SNP testing. Which has shown I'm just L21+



I've also did a test with 23andme in early december and should hopefully get the result by the end of the week. Good thing about 23andme is they do testing on your autosomal DNA (all 23 pairs not just the X/Y) as well as Mitochondrial (female line).

There's a very interesting project been run called "The Dodecad project" where they take your 23andme raw data and tell you the exact break down of your autosomal DNA (population admixture). For example the Irish members (8) of project break down on average as:
Northern European: 64.9%
Southern European: 26.7%
West Asian: 7.8%
South Asian: 0.6%

Image (click for bigger)


Regarding haplogroup E and J those would be quite exotic in an Irish context, E is generally linked with Africans and Southern Europeans whereas J is extremely comon among Semetic population (Jews/arabs). As an Irish person if you don't test R1b highest probability would be haplogroup I. It does look that some names associated with the ruling families of the Ulad/Dál nAraide/Cruithne are haplogroup I.
That Dodecast is by that Greek blogger Dienekes isn't it?
I'd expect my results to be M222; as my surname originated in Galway (like you said earlier the range of M222 goes beyond the UiNiall).
Is there a point where the irish clusters intersect? A common ancestor outside of Ireland, if you will.
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24-01-2011, 15:27   #206
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That Dodecast is by that Greek blogger Dienekes isn't it?
I'd expect my results to be M222; as my surname originated in Galway (like you said earlier the range of M222 goes beyond the UiNiall).
Is there a point where the irish clusters intersect? A common ancestor outside of Ireland, if you will.
Well if all of the clusters are L21+ (if you are M222+ you are automatically L21+) then they would have shared a common ancestor who was first to carry the L21 snp. L21 has been reported in France and over as far as Austria. However problem with alot of amateur genetic testing that most people getting test are Americans. The three biggest ancestral groups for white americans are the: Germans, Irish, British.

Until testing becomes more common in Europe (including Ireland) it's going to be hard to get a broader view. Currently the picture is alot more detailed then it was 5 years ago. Back then the major SNP groups in R1b hadn't been discovered. I can imagine that in 5 more years that our imagine of the Haplogroup tree will be even more different.

M222 is a good example of "dominant male replacement". In that you could get a small population of warrior invaders who due to higher social standing (been conquerors) end up swamping the local male population over multiple generations. What happens is they have more male children who survive to adulthood. A good example given on M222 is that one of the Kings of Tír Chonnail in the 15th century (Ó Domhnaill) had 15 surviving male children from 3-4wives.

As a result 1 in 6 Irish men carry M222 even though it's only believed to have arisen about 1700-2000 years ago.
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24-01-2011, 15:38   #207
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Well if all of the clusters are L21+ (if you are M222+ you are automatically L21+) then they would have shared a common ancestor who was first to carry the L21 snp. L21 has been reported in France and over as far as Austria. However problem with alot of amateur genetic testing that most people getting test are Americans. The three biggest ancestral groups for white americans are the: Germans, Irish, British.

Until testing becomes more common in Europe (including Ireland) it's going to be hard to get a broader view. Currently the picture is alot more detailed then it was 5 years ago. Back then the major SNP groups in R1b hadn't been discovered. I can imagine that in 5 more years that our imagine of the Haplogroup tree will be even more different.

M222 is a good example of "dominant male replacement". In that you could get a small population of warrior invaders who due to higher social standing (been conquerors) end up swamping the local male population over multiple generations. What happens is they have more male children who survive to adulthood. A good example given on M222 is that one of the Kings of Tír Chonnail in the 15th century (Ó Domhnaill) had 15 surviving male children from 3-4wives.

As a result 1 in 6 Irish men carry M222 even though it's only believed to have arisen about 1700-2000 years ago.
It's basically an Irish Genghis Khan effect isn't it?
Doesn't this also pose problems for future testing within Ireland? You gave an example of one king with 15 sons; if there isn't a "filter" inplace to take account of these instances won't the results be skewed in favour of these male lines?
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24-01-2011, 15:53   #208
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It's basically an Irish Genghis Khan effect isn't it?
Doesn't this also pose problems for future testing within Ireland? You gave an example of one king with 15 sons; if there isn't a "filter" inplace to take account of these instances won't the results be skewed in favour of these male lines?
The Genghis Khan effect indeed. Niall is generally ranked up there with him in this regard. However more then likely he isn't the originater given that families with other Connachta "dynasties" carry M222 as well (Uí Briúin, Uí Fiachra). One funny thing about M222 that most people don't know is that a very high proportion of O'Neill's (surname not dynastic group) aren't M222. It would seem there was a NPE (non-paternal event) occured sometime between the 12th and 14th century.

TBH the ruling dynasties of "Gaelic Ireland" are always going to be well represented. What potentially might happen in the future is that a new SNP is found that divides M222. For example there might be one that is only found in M222 men who have names connected with the Uí Briúin (O'Connor, O'Rourke, O'Malley, O'Flaherty etc.) so it's still worthwhile to test men who are M222. I think one thing that would be good is if we have more testing from people bearing "minor" names. What I mean is names that are not connected to kings etc. (my name would be an example: Duffy).

Here's an image from 2006 regarding Niall's purported STR signature. As you can see it reaches a peak in around Inishowen and in Connacht (Uí Briúin)
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24-01-2011, 16:18   #209
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I think I read somewhere that there are two O'Neill lineages; the "main" one and a Southern one. This ties in with your non parental event; probably down to someone adopting it due to allegiances etc
You mentioned the cruithne earlier; I read somewhere that they had links around Roscommon. Isn't this also the rough region where the Connachta hailed from?
What is known about the cruithne; anything I've read always seems to tie them to the Picts and also to p-celtic speaking groups. Also who were the Connachta and what kind of background did they claim?
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24-01-2011, 16:37   #210
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I think people get abit too hung up on the P/Q celtic divide. Looking at Welsh now obviously it seems quite alien compared to Irish but when you understand the orthographical differences you can see words that have common meanings. They reckon that the spilt between Irish and Welsh could be about 2,500 years, given that neither was written for a further 1,000 years it's not surprising that they look different, but in sense the basic P/Q divide is like the "High German" shift. For example Dutch only shifted th ->d but it didn't do for example d -> t (English: day, Dutch: Dag, German: Tag) or t -> ss (english that, German dass

As for Cruithne I can't really comment as I don't know enough though the medieval Dal nAirde are purported to be their successors. If they had originally been p-celtic then they had undergone language shift. Given the closeness of the two languages at the time this wouldn't have been too hard (lot easier then shifting Irish to English for example).

The Connachta if you believe the ancient Genealogists are descended from Conn Cétchathach (Conn of the 100 battles). Who supposedly lived in the 2nd century around the time of Marcus Aurelis and who ruled the northern half of Ireland (line from Galway to Dublin) as Leath Cuinn (Conn's half). The southern half (leath Mugh) been ruled by the ancestor of the Éoganacht: Mug Nuadat

However alot of Irish history at this stage is purely conjucture if not outright mythology in it's own way. It would seem that the history books were rewritten by the Uí Neill for dynastic propaganda.
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