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Welsh digital switch over-Irish reception questions answered

  • 21-08-2009 6:52pm
    #1
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Ok phase one of the digital switchover of the main tx Presely used in south east ireland for UK analogue reception has completed.

    What has happened ?

    BBC 2 analogue is gone.
    ITV one Wales analogue has moved to the BBC 2 frequency.

    The New high power BBC A mux [with BBC1 ,2 and 3 cbeebies etc] is broadcasting at 20kw erp instead of the previous 1.5kw.

    Is reception possible in the south east and will it be reliable?

    So far the answer seems to be yes.

    On september 16th all analogue from presely will be switched off and channels like ITV one and ch4 and five will be on 20kw muxes and should also be as reliable as the new BBC one mux is now.

    Viewers will need to retune their idtv's once again on september 16th to continue to receive the new higher power digital service.

    A lot of viewers in co wicklow use a relay Arfon for their UK analogue reception.
    This is used for example in wicklow town,much but not all of Arklow and greystones and areas inbetween.
    If you still have BBC 2,you are on arfon.
    arfon is not changing untill october.
    It is only going to be one tenth of the power of presely so it's unclear that it will be as useable.
    Some viewers may have the option of switching their aerials from arfon to presely-especially in the arklow area.

    To the best of my knowledge,people in Rathdrum are using presely and inland in places like Aughrim and Tinahely also.
    My rule of thumb as to whether reliable digital reception will be available to those areas and to those on arfon is pretty much wait and see at this time.
    If you usually have fair to good analogue reception,then it is fairly likely that you will have consistent good digital reception.
    I'm basing that on the fact that it seems that the new high power digital transmissions from presely remained stable and strong the other day when the analogues were very poor or even unwatchable at my location.


    The purpose of this thread is to provide reasonable reliable [but amatuer as I am an amatuer] information on the changeover as it affects wexford,wicklow and probably carlow and Kilkenny and maybe waterford.

    By all means ask any questions and I and one or two others here will endeavour to answer them.


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Comments

  • #2
    Bob_Harris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    It's probably answered in other threads, but any chance of putting up the frequencies of the muxes from Presely?


  • #3
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Certainly.
    Although if you get analogue presely,your decoder or any tv with an mpeg2 decoder will find all the channels on an autotune :)

    43,46 and 50 are the main ones-they are on 20kws fully from sept 16th
    One of them the BBC A mux is on ch43 and is the one already at 20kw erp and the one that is performing excelently over here so far.

    42 and 45 will be on half that power sometime in 2010 and untill then will remain at 2k.

    ch45 generally can't be picked up at present as it's co channel with mt leinster.

    http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/ifi/tech/dsodetails/wales_v3.pdf

    A more general run down on whats happening at presely in the next month can be found here .


  • #4
    mct1
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭mct1


    Thanks for that - very helpful. Just one question please, from an ordinary viewer.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The New high power BBC A mux [with BBC1 ,2 and 3 cbeebies etc] is broadcasting at 20kw erp instead of the previous 1.5kw.

    If I'm in Wexford, and can still get BBC1 on analogue - why can't I get in on our Freeview DVD recorder any more? And should I be able to? I've done a Freeview retune but nothing comes up for BBC1,2,3.


  • #5
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    You need to go into the menu settings of your recorder and retune it.

    BBC1 digital moved frequencies in order to go high power.
    Your recorder still has the old frequency which is dead now :)

    Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to fix so post back if you have any problems.

    Edit I see you have done that already

    Check the channel list.
    they may be in the 800's


  • #6
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Just to add.

    Most boxes will be putting the new BBC one,2 and 3 etc into the channell lists at 800 upwards-mine did.

    The way to fix that is to totally reset the box-it will then automatically think it's on it's first install and BBC one will return to the number one slot.

    Unfortunately you will have to do this rigamaroll again on september 16th..but on the plus side you should have much stronger reception by then.


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  • #7
    Nowso
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Nowso


    Its channel 43 not 47 now


  • #8
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    correct.
    But I don't think we should confuse people further with the channel numbers.
    They are just the frequencie slots.

    It's what you do with your box to adapt to the changes thats important


  • #9
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,302 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm basing that on the fact that it seems that the new high power digital transmissions from presely remained stable and strong the other day when the analogues were very poor or even unwatchable at my location.

    .

    I suspect the analogues being run on significantly lower power than what had been the case. This is common when a type of transmission is being phased out. Happened with the defunct 405 line system too before it was switched off.


  • #10
    200motels
    Registered Users Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭200motels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ok phase one of the digital switchover of the main tx Presely used in south east ireland for UK analogue reception has completed.

    What has happened ?

    BBC 2 analogue is gone.
    ITV one Wales analogue has moved to the BBC 2 frequency.

    The New high power BBC A mux [with BBC1 ,2 and 3 cbeebies etc] is broadcasting at 20kw erp instead of the previous 1.5kw.

    Is reception possible in the south east and will it be reliable?

    So far the answer seems to be yes.

    On september 16th all analogue from presely will be switched off and channels like ITV one and ch4 and five will be on 20kw muxes and should also be as reliable as the new BBC one mux is now.

    Viewers will need to retune their idtv's once again on september 16th to continue to receive the new higher power digital service.

    A lot of viewers in co wicklow use a relay Arfon for their UK analogue reception.
    This is used for example in wicklow town,much but not all of Arklow and greystones and areas inbetween.
    If you still have BBC 2,you are on arfon.
    arfon is not changing untill october.
    It is only going to be one tenth of the power of presely so it's unclear that it will be as useable.
    Some viewers may have the option of switching their aerials from arfon to presely-especially in the arklow area.

    To the best of my knowledge,people in Rathdrum are using presely and inland in places like Aughrim and Tinahely also.
    My rule of thumb as to whether reliable digital reception will be available to those areas and to those on arfon is pretty much wait and see at this time.
    If you usually have fair to good analogue reception,then it is fairly likely that you will have consistent good digital reception.
    I'm basing that on the fact that it seems that the new high power digital transmissions from presely remained stable and strong the other day when the analogues were very poor or even unwatchable at my location.


    The purpose of this thread is to provide reasonable reliable [but amatuer as I am an amatuer] information on the changeover as it affects wexford,wicklow and probably carlow and Kilkenny and maybe waterford.

    By all means ask any questions and I and one or two others here will endeavour to answer them.
    I'm in Waterford City and can't pick up a thing, I have an outdoor Aeriel and a MPEG4 digital tuner, I can pick up the Irish digital and analogue and 4 English stations from a deflector system, I don't think I'll be able to pick up anything unless I'm doing something wrong or have the wrong type of Aeriel or I am too low down which some body said on another thread that I am. Do I need a booster amp or such as I'm not that well up on all the technical stuff. Any advice please.


  • #11
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Antenna wrote: »
    I suspect the analogues being run on significantly lower power than what had been the case. This is common when a type of transmission is being phased out. Happened with the defunct 405 line system too before it was switched off.
    They aren't to my knowledge on lower power and in fact are behaving the way they always have at my location anyway.
    200motels wrote:
    I'm in Waterford City and can't pick up a thing, I have an outdoor Aeriel and a MPEG4 digital tuner, I can pick up the Irish digital and analogue and 4 English stations from a deflector system, I don't think I'll be able to pick up anything unless I'm doing something wrong or have the wrong type of Aeriel or I am too low down which some body said on another thread that I am. Do I need a booster amp or such as I'm not that well up on all the technical stuff. Any advice please.

    If you don't have a masthead amp and it's probable that you don't,then you are at nothing trying to receive presely.
    If you have never received presely analogue ever,then theres no point in looking for the digital,even the new high power BBC A mux.

    Thats not to say a mast head amp won't bring it in for you but to give you an idea of the difference in strength once you head south of wexford...up here we can a lot of the time receive presely upstairs in the house at a window with just rabbits ears.
    It's very grainy but it's there.
    Thats still the case which is why I don't believe that presely's analogue has been reduced.

    Also as I said,if you have an outdoor grid and never have seen presely from it,then I'd advise a no go.
    Without see'ing your location,I'd have to guess thats due to the local terrain.


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  • #12
    200motels
    Registered Users Posts: 2,602 ✭✭✭200motels


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They aren't to my knowledge on lower power and in fact are behaving the way they always have at my location anyway.



    If you don't have a masthead amp and it's probable that you don't,then you are at nothing trying to receive presely.
    If you have never received presely analogue ever,then theres no point in looking for the digital,even the new high power BBC A mux.

    Thats not to say a mast head amp won't bring it in for you but to give you an idea of the difference in strength once you head south of wexford...up here we can a lot of the time receive presely upstairs in the house at a window with just rabbits ears.
    It's very grainy but it's there.
    Thats still the case which is why I don't believe that presely's analogue has been reduced.

    Also as I said,if you have an outdoor grid and never have seen presely from it,then I'd advise a no go.
    Without see'ing your location,I'd have to guess thats due to the local terrain.
    What is a masthead amp? I have a booster amp of some sorts to pick up the English stations via deflector system and if I plug it out the Irish digital channels on test disappears. But I've never being able to pick up any analogue station from Presely. And thanks for the reply most appreciated.


  • #13
    Nowso
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,367 Mod ✭✭✭✭Nowso


    You would be best to get Freesat in Waterford and get hd tv.
    .
    Preseli is good tonight but not sure to be very reliable yet


  • #14
    BigMoose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭BigMoose


    I asked this before on one of the other threads but dont recall a direct answer (apologies if I missed it!) but Arfon will only ever be freeview lite (according to one of the uk digit TV sites) and from what I can tell it wont broadcast any channels that I cant get on FTA Sat. So those of us near Wicklow Town with a sat dish need to try Preseli for the likes of Dave? Anyone know if it can be picked up in Wicklow?


  • #15
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    People in Wicklow have always used arfon as it's analogue has always been very good up there.

    Presely was used at the montrose hotel in Dublin funilly enough about a decade ago but I don't know how reliable it was,I just remember talking to the installer.
    You will see how high the mast is...several hundred feet.

    I'd imagine Wicklow head is in the way for presely in wicklow town.
    That wouldn't entirely block it but it would seriously reduce it's signal.

    Presely has a very wide beam and behaves accordingly.
    That means the further away you are from a hill in it's direct path,the more likely you are to get it...whereas arfon has a very narrow beam so a hill does serious damage to that.

    To answer your question,I wouldnt be advising presely in wicklow town
    Blaemplwf maybe if you have a wideband aerial.
    Just flic=k it round to horizontal and move it slightly south of where it's pointed for arfon and see what happens.

    I'm not advising spending money on that one but it's worth a try to just flick an aerial round.
    I haven't the time to check though if it's co channel with anything else,I'll check later for you.

    By the way Blaen is shielded to the west in analogue but this may not be the case for digital so it may be a real possibility.
    It's also double the power of presely and a direct shorter sea path.
    Blaen in the 60's and 70's was widely used with perfect reception for HTV on the East coast on VHF.

    Check ofcom for it's switchover timetable [I think it starts in october but will check later].

    NO POINT IN DOING THIS EXPERIMENT UNTILL BLAENPLWYF HAS ONE OF ITS HIGH POWERED MUXES OPERATING :)


  • #16
    Ger Roe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    I am in Kilpedder, (Newtownmountkennedy) with a clear view to the sea and had a go at receiving UK DTT on Saturday morning.

    I have a grid antenna on the roof and a masthead amp, previously it had been used to receive analogue from Afron, but I had twisted it north towards Greystones when the Irish DTT tests started. When I scanned the DTT box, I was surprised to see UK channels appear.

    The strength wasn't great and the picture did tend to break up. I assumed (incorrectly) that this was because I wasn't totally pointed at Afron and I went back up to re-align. The result was that I then lost the UK DTT totally.
    The weather then closed in, so I didn't get a chance to try pointing south at Preselli.

    Does anyone know what I might have been receiving when pointed slightly more north of Afron? I was seeing the BBC channels in the clear and also listing encrypted channels such as Setanta Golf and I think also UK Living?

    If the wind and rain had died down over the weekend, I would have had more opportunity to swing the grid around a bit to see what was happening.


  • #17
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Ger Roe wrote: »
    I am in Kilpedder, (Newtownmountkennedy) with a clear view to the sea and had a go at receiving UK DTT on Saturday morning.

    I have a grid antenna on the roof and a masthead amp, previously it had been used to receive analogue from Afron, but I had twisted it north towards Greystones when the Irish DTT tests started. When I scanned the DTT box, I was surprised to see UK channels appear.

    The strength wasn't great and the picture did tend to break up. I assumed (incorrectly) that this was because I wasn't totally pointed at Afron and I went back up to re-align. The result was that I then lost the UK DTT totally.
    The weather then closed in, so I didn't get a chance to try pointing south at Preselli.

    Does anyone know what I might have been receiving when pointed slightly more north of Afron? I was seeing the BBC channels in the clear and also listing encrypted channels such as Setanta Golf and I think also UK Living?

    If the wind and rain had died down over the weekend, I would have had more opportunity to swing the grid around a bit to see what was happening.
    Try the grid horizontally polarised [it will be vertical for arfon] that will give you a better chance. This is what your grid looks like when mounted horizontal.
    Which BBC region was it? [probably wales]
    Theres a very slight chance that it was from NW england...in which case it was a fluke that you saw it.
    Does your box tell you what UHF channel number it was on if you look at the signal strength menu for that channel?
    Mine keeps them in the list even if the signal is gone so if they are there I can always check that.


  • #18
    Ger Roe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    Thanks Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard, I didn't know that the polarity will have to be changed.

    If the weather clears up I might get a chance to experiment a bit more - i'll post again if I see any results.

    Cheers.


  • #19
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    With that grid by the way it's still possible that it was presely you were getting.
    As even though it was vertical and as you say moved further north,signals leak into a grid aerial a lot easier than a grouped aerial.

    Down here for instance you can swing a grid right round in good presely analogue and hardly notice a change except for maybe 1 10th of the angle.
    It's possible the loss you saw was just the loss of an overspill.
    You'll definitely have a better chance with the grid horizontal though.


  • #20
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    This is slightly off topic, but the other Welsh DTT thread is closed. Digifriendly asked me what transmitter I got Grampian from in the past. It was Angus - see here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=60399&page=3

    Just for the record, given the discussion in the other thread about Scottish DTT reception from NI, I can now, in Bangor, get all three MUXes lound and clear from Cambret Hill and the BBC Scotland mux from Portpatrick, which is a bit blocky. Everything is in the 800's apart from the radio station Heart which is the correct place in the 700s due to it not being broadcast in NI.


  • #21
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Richard,
    Out of interest ,how far would you estimate Bangor is from cambret hill and how much of that is sea track? Is the erp there 20kw?

    Wintertime is the real test but as I said in the other thread,I was absolutely amazed and delighted at how well the presely BBC a mux stuck on 62% strength at a time when the analogue from there was very poor.
    It bodes well.


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  • #22
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Richard,
    Out of interest ,how far would you estimate Bangor is from cambret hill and how much of that is sea track? Is the erp there 20kw?

    It's about 60 miles, about 35 of which is over the sea.

    Not sure about the ERP. wolfbane.co.uk lists it as "2k8", whatever that means!


  • #23
    Ger Roe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    Deleted User wrote: »
    With that grid by the way it's still possible that it was presely you were getting.
    As even though it was vertical and as you say moved further north,signals leak into a grid aerial a lot easier than a grouped aerial.

    That thought did cross my mind, but I didn't think I had moved far enough north to pull a signal in at the back. The problem is that I only had one move opportunity before the wind and rain hit, I will have to wait until the weekend to try some more controlled moves.

    Good fun though, it's been a long time since there was a bit of TV 'trial and error' reception available. Satellite setup is easier and my main viewing source, but the anorak in me can't resist swinging an aerial about.:)


  • #24
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    I'm just wondering. Presumably, from what I've read on here, the signal in the Courtown area is from Presely. I have a pensioner neighbour who is concerned about losing her British Channels. I had suggested FTA satellite but if it's just a case of getting a Freeview STB then that would seem to be a better option.
    Reception is quite good around here and if the transmitter power is increased by a factor of ten, all the better. Advice anyone?


  • #25
    GiftGrub100
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭GiftGrub100


    Hi, Live in Rosslare and have been watching Freeview for a few years, the BBC channels are now 100 % and were still 100% over the last weekend despite the wind and rain.

    If they have good analogue, should have good freeview, worth trying a set top box or pick up a small LCD TV (I got a Samsung LCD in PC WORLD for 259 for 20'' and it gets all the freeview channels very well, BBC much better than the rest at the moment).


  • #26
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    I agree with Gift grub.
    The further down into wexford you go especially along the coast,the stronger presely is.
    The BBCA mux was at 90% here today and the ITV and Channel four and five muxes are going to be the same without a doubt in my opinion as they are on adjacent channels.
    They couldnt have chose a better place for them and they are never going to be co channel with Mt Leinster even if a full Irish service starts.
    So Win Win :)

    Gift grub-do you have the model of that samsung as I'm looking for a 20 or 22" with freeview.


  • #27
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Ger Roe wrote: »
    That thought did cross my mind, but I didn't think I had moved far enough north to pull a signal in at the back. The problem is that I only had one move opportunity before the wind and rain hit, I will have to wait until the weekend to try some more controlled moves.

    Good fun though, it's been a long time since there was a bit of TV 'trial and error' reception available. Satellite setup is easier and my main viewing source, but the anorak in me can't resist swinging an aerial about.:)
    tune your tv to uhf channel 37 and see if you can get analogue five from presely with the grid horizontal-it's the strongest and most far travelling analogue from presely.
    If you get that and peak it up a bit,then do a freeview scan and I'll bet you'll see channels..Assuming it was presely that you got at the weekend.

    Bear in mind that presely analogue goes off on sept 16th so you have only till then to find it and it's a lot easier to find and peak that than it is to find the digital...Reason being you can leave your tv tuned to ch 37 with someone watching it untill they see a picture...thats something that you cannot do with digital.

    Let us know how you get on.


  • #28
    Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard
    Posts: 0 ✭ Nehemiah Odd Scoreboard


    Another interesting example of how the new high power BBC A mux is performing in rainy weather.

    Analogues are quite grainy this morning .
    The weaker presely muxes are at around 50% strength and 10% quality so unwatchable.

    BBC A on the other hand is steady at 73% strength and 100% quality with no drop outs.
    The strenght measure is from my humax pvr whcih I use for this analysis.
    Other tv's or decoders all have different measurements.

    My sony w4000 actually shows a full green bar with it's top reception description of "excelent" for the BBC A mux.
    Again this is more brilliant news as it shows the 64 Qam signal type is much more sturdy than analogue and it bodes well for when ITV,ch4 and five move down the band to an adjacent mux to the BBCA one at the same power :)


  • #29
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Unless you have a big mast and/or people in your area pick up UK TV via aerial already, it's not really worth considering Freeview.

    Freesat can use 60cm to 70cm dish and give all the main UK channels, about 40 decent TV and 10 decent radio out of 200TV and 70 Radio free.


    This thread is really for people that could have been getting Welsh Analogue and now can get Welsh Digital Terrestrial as the power is increased.


  • #30
    martin12
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭martin12


    I live near Harristown close to where the Tv deflector/transmitter is located with a clear line of sight of Presili transmitter bbc mux coming in @ 65-70% Signal Strength 100% Signal Quality constant in all weather so far.
    I,m using a Televes Dat 75 aerial and a Televes 26db MastHead Amp.


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  • #31
    Gadgie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭Gadgie


    martin12 wrote: »
    I live near Harristown close to where the Tv deflector/transmitter is located with a clear line of sight of Presili transmitter bbc mux coming in @ 65-70% Signal Strength 100% Signal Quality constant in all weather so far.
    I,m using a Televes Dat 75 aerial and a Televes 26db MastHead Amp.

    Thanks for the info. My parents live in Dunmore East with an unobstructed view out to sea, and I was going to see if I could pick the signal up.

    Where did you get your aerial from?


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