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09-03-2009, 13:37   #1
reilig
 
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Log Gasifying Boiler

So now that the grants have been available for a while for the Log Gasifying Boilers, can anyone who has installed one give us positive or negative information on theirs? Has there been a lot of them installed in Ireland and are they performing as well as they are supposed to?

I have just taken delivery of an Atmos DC 25S gasification boiler, 1500l buffer tank, laddomat, thermal release valve, central heating pump, thermostats, pressure gauge, pump bypass, associated expansion vessels and fittings. I have them for €3500, delivered to my door. A neighbour recently did a training course on them and has fitted one or two. He has told me that €500 should cover him for installation. Its a far cry from the quotes of €8000 to €12000 that I received from installers for the identical set up.

The only other thing that I have to get made is a twin wall flue. Hopefully it won't be too expensive, but I recon it will come in at €500+

I have already started stacking wood for use next winter.

It would be nice to hear other people's advice or experience.

Last edited by reilig; 09-03-2009 at 22:03.
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10-03-2009, 21:51   #2
webels
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Sorry Reilig cant provide any information just interested in your setup. I am renovating a farmhouse at the moment and thinking of putting in a wood/oil boiler, as mentioned in a thread further down the page. However i have also looked at wood gasification boilers, if you dont mind me asking did you purchase the boiler etc direct from a supplier abroad, as they still seem to be quite expensive over here?
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11-03-2009, 09:28   #3
reilig
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webels View Post
Sorry Reilig cant provide any information just interested in your setup. I am renovating a farmhouse at the moment and thinking of putting in a wood/oil boiler, as mentioned in a thread further down the page. However i have also looked at wood gasification boilers, if you dont mind me asking did you purchase the boiler etc direct from a supplier abroad, as they still seem to be quite expensive over here?

I went a funny way around it. I bought the boiler from a supplier in Northern Ireland for £1300 + VAT. It cost me about €300 more than if I had bought it from Poland. But now I have a guarantee and back up with it. It was as simple as going up and collecting it from their Depot in Armagh.

My 1500l buffer tank, laddomat, and all fixtures and fittings came from Poland on a pallet. I saved about €2000 on buying all here (inc delivery).

See the order form from the polish supplier below. If you want any names, I'll PM them to you.


1 x Laddomat 21 = €222
1 x One-way thermal release valve WATTS STS-20 (STS 20) = 42EUR

1 x Insulated accumulation tank (without coils) GALMET SG (B) - 1500l (70-150000) = 1,111EUR

1 x Pressurised expansion vessel DUKLA B type 25l - up to 3 bar () = 30EUR

1 x Central heating pump GRUNDFOS UPS 25-60 180 = 94EUR
With Filter
With 2 connectors

2 x Thermometer INTROL (up to) 120 centigrades (thread 1/2") () = 7EUR
1 x Flue thermostat for LADDOMAT ECOVARM 50-300 C 1,5m - RS 300 (RS 300) = 24EUR
1 x Manometr INTROL - 0.16 MPa (thread: 1/2", lower connection) () = 8EUR
2 x Safety Valve Pintossi 1,5 bar - 1/2" () = 8EUR

1 x Pump by-pass 1,5" (40mm) (made of steel) = 44EUR inc VAT
1 x Pressurised expansion vessel DUKLA B type 220l - up to 3 bar = 175EUR inc VAT
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11-03-2009, 11:54   #4
webels
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Thanks Reilig for the detailed reply. If you could PM me that would be great and i will keep my options open as I am meeting the Plumber this weekend.

Thanks
eddie
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11-03-2009, 21:52   #5
pool fan
 
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hi

can you pm me the dtails too please?
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23-03-2009, 15:06   #6
Evergreen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reilig View Post
A neighbour recently did a training course on them and has fitted one or two. He has told me that €500 should cover him for installation.
Is your neighbour registered by SEI to install Atmos boilers? If he is not then he cannot commission the boiler for the SEI grant. The grant setup for the gasification boiler is very different than for pellet boilers. For pellet boilers once you are on the list you can commission any pellet boiler, for gasification boilers only people trained by the importer or the manufacturer can commission that boiler. If you are registered for an ETA wood gasification boiler but not an atmos then you cannot commission the atmos

Quote:
Originally Posted by reilig View Post
Its a far cry from the quotes of €8000 to €12000 that I received from installers for the identical set up.
I disagree with this quote very much, I have been working with gasification boilers for nearly 5 years and there is a huge difference between the cheaper boilers and the more expensive systems.

I have worked with Atmos Boilers, Attack Boilers (almost a carbon copy of the Atmos) plus the ETA Heiztechnik SH Log Gasification boiler and there is no comparison between them. People have different reasons for buying a cheaper boiler or a more expensive one and that's ok but to say that there is no difference is not correct.

From my experience here are some examples of the differences

Exhaust Control
Attack/Atmos - A draught fan that runs at a continuous level with now temperature or O2 control.
ETA Boiler - Variable speed draught fan that is controlled in relation to the temperature of the exhaust gas and the level of O2 in the exhaust. O2 level is an indication of the moisture content in the burning fuel and the quality of the fuel (hardwood or softwood). O2 monitoring allows the boiler to alter burning settings so as to always have optimum burning conditions.

Primary/Secondary Air
Attack/Atmos - Primary air flap that is lifted open/close by a chain connect to a thermostatic valve in the boilers water. no secondary air control
ETA Boiler - Automatic primary and secondary air valve control that is controlled in conjunction with the exhaust fan speed. The O2 meter dictates that opening of these valves, for example wood up to 40% moisture requires more oxygen to burn than wood with moisture as low as 20%.

Efficiency
Attack/Atmos - depending on the type of wood, and other factors the efficiency varies from 80% to 83% heat converted into useable hot water.
ETA Boiler - A much higher range between 92% and 94% converted into useable hot water.

Convenience
ATTACK/Atmos - Two doors means that to light the boiler you have to reach into the boiler to ignite your kindling. Once the kindling is burning you then have to fill up the boiler with logs.

ETA Boiler - Three doors. You can fill the boiler completely in one go and then open the middle lighting door for ignition without having to worry about burning your fringe. Also, due to the O2 stat the ETA is able to determine when the boiler is running out of wood fuel and starts to run an ember preservation program that will keep hot embers (when burning hardwood) in the chamber so that ignition the following day is automatic. If you are burning softwood these embers turn to charcoal at a much faster rate, but lighting then is as simple as rolling up a newspaper sheet and lighting the charcoal.

Attack/Atmos - no weather influenced heating
ETA Boiler - weather influenced heating with built in zone timers

Warranty
Attack/Atmos - 5 years parts on heat exchanger, 12 months parts on everything else
ETA - 5 years parts and labour on everything

I could go on but I think that you can get the message from that
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23-03-2009, 15:43   #7
reilig
 
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Thanks for the information, its useful and interesting to get another perspective on it.
First of all, my house is a new build, so my neighbour does not need to be SEI registered for my purposes as I am not eligable for the grant. However, he is registered with SEI and has completed an Atmos installation training course, so I'm safe in that regard.

I suppose, my main reason for choosing the Atmos was cost. I believe that it is the cheapest gasification boiler on the market. I never said that there was "no difference between boilers" or at least I did not intend to suggest this. In my earlier post, I trying to state that I got my Atmos Dc25s boiler very much cheaper than buying an identical atmos dc25s from an Irish installer/supplier.

My choice was based on simplicity. The Atmos DC25s is a simple boiler with no complicated electronic controls, and/or automatic air valves or O2 meters.
Perhaps it is less efficient than some other more expensive boilers on the market, but for me, the extra 5% in efficiency does not justify the extra cost.

Primary/Secondary air - well i have a constant supply of dry wood - all ash and under 20% moisture. It shouldn't be a problem.

Ok, maybe lighting the boiler will be more difficult than an ETA, but it can't be that complicated, Can it? I have never heard of anyone complaining about the difficulty of lighting an atmos.

Personally I haven't heard a lot of information on the ETA gasifying boiler in Ireland. But as I said, I did a lot of research on gasifying boilers. ETA have a good name. However, I visited a number of small district heating schemes in the Schwarzweld, near Freiburg in Germany a few years ago. They were using 60kw eta gasifying boilers to heat small houses and apartments. They did indicate a number of ongoing problems with the eta boilers - especially with O2 sensors. They also indicated that the boilers were no way as efficient as you suggest.

Prompted by this, I chose the less complicated option. Maybe its a bad choice, but going on feedback from other Atmos users, it should meet my needs.

Finally, would you be able to give an indication of the cost of a fully installed ETA 25kw gasifying boiler with 1500l buffer tank? I know that the ETA is higher spec, but would I have to pay €6000 extra for and ETA system above the Atmos?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen View Post
Is your neighbour registered by SEI to install Atmos boilers? If he is not then he cannot commission the boiler for the SEI grant. The grant setup for the gasification boiler is very different than for pellet boilers. For pellet boilers once you are on the list you can commission any pellet boiler, for gasification boilers only people trained by the importer or the manufacturer can commission that boiler. If you are registered for an ETA wood gasification boiler but not an atmos then you cannot commission the atmos



I disagree with this quote very much, I have been working with gasification boilers for nearly 5 years and there is a huge difference between the cheaper boilers and the more expensive systems.

I have worked with Atmos Boilers, Attack Boilers (almost a carbon copy of the Atmos) plus the ETA Heiztechnik SH Log Gasification boiler and there is no comparison between them. People have different reasons for buying a cheaper boiler or a more expensive one and that's ok but to say that there is no difference is not correct.

From my experience here are some examples of the differences

Exhaust Control
Attack/Atmos - A draught fan that runs at a continuous level with now temperature or O2 control.
ETA Boiler - Variable speed draught fan that is controlled in relation to the temperature of the exhaust gas and the level of O2 in the exhaust. O2 level is an indication of the moisture content in the burning fuel and the quality of the fuel (hardwood or softwood). O2 monitoring allows the boiler to alter burning settings so as to always have optimum burning conditions.

Primary/Secondary Air
Attack/Atmos - Primary air flap that is lifted open/close by a chain connect to a thermostatic valve in the boilers water. no secondary air control
ETA Boiler - Automatic primary and secondary air valve control that is controlled in conjunction with the exhaust fan speed. The O2 meter dictates that opening of these valves, for example wood up to 40% moisture requires more oxygen to burn than wood with moisture as low as 20%.

Efficiency
Attack/Atmos - depending on the type of wood, and other factors the efficiency varies from 80% to 83% heat converted into useable hot water.
ETA Boiler - A much higher range between 92% and 94% converted into useable hot water.

Convenience
ATTACK/Atmos - Two doors means that to light the boiler you have to reach into the boiler to ignite your kindling. Once the kindling is burning you then have to fill up the boiler with logs.

ETA Boiler - Three doors. You can fill the boiler completely in one go and then open the middle lighting door for ignition without having to worry about burning your fringe. Also, due to the O2 stat the ETA is able to determine when the boiler is running out of wood fuel and starts to run an ember preservation program that will keep hot embers (when burning hardwood) in the chamber so that ignition the following day is automatic. If you are burning softwood these embers turn to charcoal at a much faster rate, but lighting then is as simple as rolling up a newspaper sheet and lighting the charcoal.

Attack/Atmos - no weather influenced heating
ETA Boiler - weather influenced heating with built in zone timers

Warranty
Attack/Atmos - 5 years parts on heat exchanger, 12 months parts on everything else
ETA - 5 years parts and labour on everything

I could go on but I think that you can get the message from that

Last edited by reilig; 23-03-2009 at 15:46.
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23-03-2009, 16:30   #8
Evergreen
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Yes you are quite right about the problems with the O2 sensor; they did cause some problems for a while. Bosch, the only manufacturer of these items swapped their manufacturing base from Germany to Brazil and the quality of the product dropped off the face of the earth. They have rectified this problem now after spending millions replacing sensors around the world at their cost so this problem is no longer an issue.

I can understand why you purchased the DC25 in the manner you did, the mark up by the importers here is quite remarkable to say the least. I get the feeling that they have look at the price of the well known names such as ETA, Fröling, KOB, etc and decided to pitch in at half the price when in fact they could have sold them at a quarter of the price and still made good profit.

I could give you an example of installed costs for an ETA system,

Items Included

• 20kW gasification boiler
• Return temperature riser valve
• Emergency thermal cooling valve
• 1100 Buffer tank with installation
• 250 L expansion vessel
• Pipework and fittings from boiler to buffer tank
• Weather compensation system
• 2 x Mixing valves for two heating zones
• 2 x room thermostats with remote zone on/off/timer
• Outdoor temp sensor
• Stainless steel chimney to 1 meter above roof line on single story house
• Installation
• VAT
• EUR 13,000

Or
• 30kW gasification boiler
• Return temperature riser valve
• Emergency thermal cooling valve
• 1650 Buffer tank with installation
• 250 L expansion vessel
• Pipework and fittings from boiler to buffer tank
• Weather compensation system
• 2 x Mixing valves for two heating zones
• 2 x room thermostats with remote zone on/off/timer
• Outdoor temp sensor
• Stainless steel chimney to 1 meter above roof line on single story house
• Installation
• VAT
• EUR 14,250

Most new house these days wouldn’t require a 30kW, with current insulation standards a 20kW boiler will heat over 3,000 sq feet without any problems.
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25-03-2009, 11:28   #9
reilig
 
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Posts: 7,387
Thanks for that Evergreen. Its interesting to know.

I suppose the main reason that I am putting in the Atmos is cost. My original plan was to install an oil boiler and have a solid fuel range as a back up.
I could get away with €300 to €500 in oil per year at current prices and with this set up.

But I do have unlimited access to good quality wood.

However, to spend €13000 on a gasification boiler would have a very long payback in comparison to the above system at current oil prices.

Now I know that the price of oil will definitely increase in the future, so I really did want to go with a renewable system above the oil. After spending €4000, my payback time is much reduced. I have a system that I can have unlimited free fuel for. Ok, maybe it is not as efficient as other more expensive gasifying boiler - but this is justified in price. However, with my access to fuel, this efficiency difference has less of an impact on me in comparison to someone who would have to pay for their fuel.

Yes, I agree that some of the importers / installers have been greedy with their mark-ups. And yes, if I had to buy from a supplier, I probably would not be buying an Atmos because, for a small amount extra, I could have a boiler with a lot of extras.

Anyway, best of luck with your business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen View Post
Yes you are quite right about the problems with the O2 sensor; they did cause some problems for a while. Bosch, the only manufacturer of these items swapped their manufacturing base from Germany to Brazil and the quality of the product dropped off the face of the earth. They have rectified this problem now after spending millions replacing sensors around the world at their cost so this problem is no longer an issue.

I can understand why you purchased the DC25 in the manner you did, the mark up by the importers here is quite remarkable to say the least. I get the feeling that they have look at the price of the well known names such as ETA, Fröling, KOB, etc and decided to pitch in at half the price when in fact they could have sold them at a quarter of the price and still made good profit.

I could give you an example of installed costs for an ETA system,

Items Included

• 20kW gasification boiler
• Return temperature riser valve
• Emergency thermal cooling valve
• 1100 Buffer tank with installation
• 250 L expansion vessel
• Pipework and fittings from boiler to buffer tank
• Weather compensation system
• 2 x Mixing valves for two heating zones
• 2 x room thermostats with remote zone on/off/timer
• Outdoor temp sensor
• Stainless steel chimney to 1 meter above roof line on single story house
• Installation
• VAT
• EUR 13,000

Or
• 30kW gasification boiler
• Return temperature riser valve
• Emergency thermal cooling valve
• 1650 Buffer tank with installation
• 250 L expansion vessel
• Pipework and fittings from boiler to buffer tank
• Weather compensation system
• 2 x Mixing valves for two heating zones
• 2 x room thermostats with remote zone on/off/timer
• Outdoor temp sensor
• Stainless steel chimney to 1 meter above roof line on single story house
• Installation
• VAT
• EUR 14,250

Most new house these days wouldn’t require a 30kW, with current insulation standards a 20kW boiler will heat over 3,000 sq feet without any problems.
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25-03-2009, 23:42   #10
PeteHeat
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Hi reilig,

Do you intend to install the oil boiler as a back up system ?
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26-03-2009, 10:11   #11
reilig
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteHeat View Post
Hi reilig,

Do you intend to install the oil boiler as a back up system ?
Right no I don't intend to install the oil boiler. I have a stanly range in my kitchen and a stove in my sitting room. These should be sufficient for back up. People that have already installed gasifying boilers tell me that I will not need oil to back it up. However, my system will be suitable for an oil boiler (god forbit) if the gasifying boiler was not up to scratch.
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05-08-2009, 13:41   #12
gmbpurple
 
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Posts: 1
Hi,

I'm building at the moment and have had the log gasifiying system in mind from the beginning unfortunately the guy who was quoting me at the end of last year (rumour has it) has gone out of business. The way you've done it seems to make more economic sense, i was quoted €11/12k for the boiler 25kw, 1500l tank, parts, fitting etc. Any chance you could send on the details of where you purchased and who did the fitting for you? By the way how is the heating working out for you? Anything you'd have done differently in hindsight? I believe the system is very efficient once you get used to it and a child could use it, am i right?

many thanks, G
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28-08-2009, 10:04   #13
iwb
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Hi Reilig,

Could you update us on your system? Have you installed it yet? How is it working out?
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12-10-2009, 14:02   #14
reilig
 
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For anyone interested, My gasification boiler was lit for the first time yesterday and Both me any my plumber were quite impressed. 2 fills of the boiler (total of 1 standard wheelbarrow) heated the 1500 litre buffer tank to 90 degrees at the top and 70 degrees at the bottom. It worked perfect, just like its supposed to. There was very little smoke from it. No rattles or bangs or ticks . Its actually very quiet.

Costs:

Atmos DC 25s, 1500 l buffer tank, Laddomat, circulation pump, safety valves, pressure release valves, mixing valves, temperature gauges etc. €3000 including delivery.

Stainless steel twin wall flue €1000

Copper pipe (1 1/4). Pipe fittings, solder fittings and associated plumbing tape and accessories €1000 (I was shocked at the cost - but 1 1/4" fittings are very very expensive.

Labour €500


Total €5500.

Satisfaction: Couldn't be happier at the moment. Looking forward to getting home from work this evening to put another fire in it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iwb View Post
Hi Reilig,

Could you update us on your system? Have you installed it yet? How is it working out?
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16-10-2009, 16:35   #15
samoht
 
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Posts: 7
Hi Reilig,

Glad to hear your boiler performed well first time. What height is your insulated flue from the ground? I am in an urban environment and am wondering if the smoke level would pose a problem
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