Experience with permaculture or creating a forest garden?

macraignil · 16-11-2019 2:01pm #1

Looking at comments on another thread here in the gardening forum it seems there is some interest in the concept of permaculture or creating a forest garden. The whole area of sustainability and looking after our environment seems to have become a bit more fashionable recently and the idea in starting this thread is making a place for Irish gardeners to share their experience with this type of gardening. The general principle is to cultivate the garden to be more productive for ourselves and for nature and rather than talk too much about that myself I'm hoping some other people will post some of their experiences and any questions about related topics they want to be discussed.

I posted this video five years back where I show the permaculture style garden I started in my parent's back garden over 15 years back but there is a lot of more professionally produced material out there that might be of interest to people in this area so please feel free to share any good videos or articles you might have seen even if they are not specifically Irish gardens but could be relevant to people interested in doing this in Ireland.

Also thought here would be a good place to share a link to helpful websites and here is a fairly comprehensive database on useful productive plants that might be helpful.

Thanks in advance for any contributions.

Lumen · 16-11-2019 2:21pm

I have planted two years ago, with producivity this year:

- Aronia (18): enough for breakfast for maybe 3 weeks
- Cobnut (3): 1 smallish bowl
- Viburnum tinus (70): nothing much, hedging planted for the birds
- Eleagnus ebbingei (70): nothing much, hedging planted for the birds
- Stella cherry on Gisela 5 (1): 1 smallish bowl
- Cornelian Cherry (3): a handful
- Walnut (3): nothing yet
- Plum Opal on St Julien (1): maybe 4 fruit
- Pinus Pinea (6): nothing yet, expect to be waiting another decade or two
- Medlar Nottingham (1): loads but predictably foul, planted for amusement value

I think my main issue is that I've gone for an orchard-style planting, with spacing maximised for productivity (apart from the hedging). So now I have to maintain the grass which is a lot of faff.

So I'd be interested in finding (ideally productive) ground cover plants for the boundary of aronia/cornelian cherry, otherwise I'll be spending the rest of my life strimming and mulching.

Also I have a lot of open ornamental beds which require constant weeding, so productive ground cover would be good for those too.

All I can think of right now is wild strawberry.

smacl · 16-11-2019 3:02pm

Lumen wrote: »

So I'd be interested in finding (ideally productive) ground cover plants for the boundary of aronia/cornelian cherry

I put a number of different varieties of mint under the plum trees in the front garden and under an apple tree in the back. Very little maintenance and great when roasting baby patatoes, in curries and just plain old mint tea. I tried alpine strawberries which are fine for ground cover but never really produced much fruit.

Loved the NZ video but way too space constrained myself for any decent scale at present.

macraignil · 16-11-2019 4:37pm

Lumen wrote: »

So I'd be interested in finding (ideally productive) ground cover plants for the boundary of aronia/cornelian cherry, otherwise I'll be spending the rest of my life strimming and mulching.

Also I have a lot of open ornamental beds which require constant weeding, so productive ground cover would be good for those too.

All I can think of right now is wild strawberry.

I've not limited my ground cover to ones that will produce fruit so the one I have multiplied the most has been Ajuga. There are cultivars with nice purple coloured leaves and another one I have has brighter leaves with a mixture of colours. I think it is part of the mint family and is said to have edible leaves but seems to spread by over ground stems rather than underground so it is easier to trim back and keep under control. The main benefit I think is the early season flowers and there are some of them in the garden that are flowering even now.

I also propagated some locally sourced vinca that is just being grown for the cold season flowers and the ability to grow well in shade.

The one I have tried that is supposed to fruit is the Chinese bramble(Rubus tricolor) but although it has flowered I have yet to see any fruit. It is fairly vigorous so I'd say to plant with caution as it could clamber on top of smaller plants you might have growing near it. I've had to trim it back at times and it is no problem to propagate as the stems start to root again when they grow over soil where they can form a new plant.

A lot of my ground cover is done with self seeding plants that I spread for their flowers like forget me not, pot marigold, geum, chamomile and common daisy.

Mint varieties are also good here but I do cut them back hard after they flower so they don't spread too far. The basil mint I have is still flowering now.

Other useful ones that grow well I have found are evening primrose and lemon balm but they maybe get a bit tall to be counted as a ground cover.

looksee · 17-11-2019 1:01pm

I have a garden that was planted with the above rubus and also cultivated blackberries. Cultivated how are ye, they are mannerless thugs. The garden was then abandoned for several years. The blasted rubus is everywhere and is a divil to get out, there is just so much of it, it has swamped lots of other plants - and the fruit is not worth picking.

smacl · 17-11-2019 7:29pm

looksee wrote: »

I have a garden that was planted with the above rubus and also cultivated blackberries. Cultivated how are ye, they are mannerless thugs. The garden was then abandoned for several years. The blasted rubus is everywhere and is a divil to get out, there is just so much of it, it has swamped lots of other plants - and the fruit is not worth picking.

Lovely turn of phrase. My raspberries and loganberries are also getting a bit thuggish of late but they're heavy fruiting so I allow them their misdemeanours until about this time of year and then have at 'em.

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-11-2019 11:15pm

Take a look at the you tube channels of
Liz Zorab and Charles Dowding.

pwurple · 18-11-2019 4:47pm

We have apples and hazelnuts, thinking of getting a fig for a warm wall.. Walnuts you will be waiting 20 years, but it's a stunning tree.

smacl · 18-11-2019 11:08pm

pwurple wrote: »

We have apples and hazelnuts, thinking of getting a fig for a warm wall.. Walnuts you will be waiting 20 years, but it's a stunning tree.

We've a fig which is attractive, fruits well and quite fast growing. Downside is the wood is very soft so prone to wind damage. Against a wall I'd be tempted to espalier it.

vistafinder · 19-11-2019 8:29pm

I like a mixture of Jeoff Lawton and Charles Dowding.

https://youtu.be/hCJfSYZqZ0Y

Lumen · 20-11-2019 5:39am

Is Dowding doing much permaculture? The videos I've seen have been about growing veg on vast amounts of largely bought in mushroom compost.

magicbastarder · 20-11-2019 12:12pm

smacl wrote: »

We've a fig which is attractive, fruits well and quite fast growing. Downside is the wood is very soft so prone to wind damage. Against a wall I'd be tempted to espalier it.

we planted one in a pot, on the understanding that you're better off restricting the root run. it just seems to have restricted the plant full stop, it's barely doubled in size in five years.

vistafinder · 20-11-2019 12:39pm

Lumen wrote: »

Is Dowding doing much permaculture? The videos I've seen have been about growing veg on vast amounts of largely bought in mushroom compost.

The no digging or no tilling bit is as permaculture as he gets by the look of it but he does make a lot of his own compost and looks local for anything he can get his hands on for his method of growing.

smacl · 20-11-2019 2:11pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

we planted one in a pot, on the understanding that you're better off restricting the root run. it just seems to have restricted the plant full stop, it's barely doubled in size in five years.

Ours is about the same age and planted to in the ground, currently pruned back to about 8 foot but would be larger if given a chance. We lose branches to storms most years so it could do with a bit more shelter or some kind of support. Tempted to cut it hard back and encourage it towards a bush form.

magicbastarder · 20-11-2019 2:28pm

uh, ours is about two foot tall.

Lumen · 20-11-2019 4:38pm

vistafinder wrote: »

The no digging or no tilling bit is as permaculture as he gets by the look of it but he does make a lot of his own compost and looks local for anything he can get his hands on for his method of growing.

I suppose I'm projecting my own expectations of what permaculture should look like, particularly heavy reliance on perennials rather than annual crops, and to a great extent a closed system (other than exchanging plants with others).

It seems like if you have that much land, there shouldn't be a need to bring in dumper trucks of mushroom compost. It might be a sensible approach to extracting more value out of high intensity agriculture, but it's still cheating.

macraignil · 20-11-2019 6:35pm

Lumen wrote: »

I suppose I'm projecting my own expectations of what permaculture should look like, particularly heavy reliance on perennials rather than annual crops, and to a great extent a closed system (other than exchanging plants with others).

It seems like if you have that much land, there shouldn't be a need to bring in dumper trucks of mushroom compost. It might be a sensible approach to extracting more value out of high intensity agriculture, but it's still cheating.

I think you're being a bit harsh saying Mr. Dowding is cheating when he imports some compost from off his vegetable garden. He clearly is producing fairly intensive crops of vegetables so I think he needs to balance this production with getting organic material from somewhere and from organic waste from another horticulture business sounds fairly reasonable to me.

Not watched all of his videos but I have seen him mention raspberry and asparagus crops and there is clearly some small fruit trees in the background when he is talking about his vegetables. I think the good thing about this type of gardening is that it is not just a one model fits all and we can just take what we want from the experience of others. I think Mr. Dowding has some positive points to make but am only going to take some of them on board for my own gardening. I will be continuing to grow fruit and vegetables for eating myself but want to put more emphasis on growing food and creating habitats for wildlife.

Edit: Just found a video he did on fruit trees if anyone is interested.

vistafinder · 20-11-2019 8:44pm

Lumen wrote: »

I suppose I'm projecting my own expectations of what permaculture should look like, particularly heavy reliance on perennials rather than annual crops, and to a great extent a closed system

Absolutely. I know what your saying.
But is it possible in our climate to live off perennials all year. I wasn't able to figure out a plan for it. Genuinely am interested in ideas.

Instead I thought it would be better to learn to be able to provide vegetables all year around for our household and then add in perennials and all the time letting the native landscape do it's own thing as much as possible which will attract all our native wildlife.

Im doing it the opposite to what Jeoff Lawton recommends but my own food was first priority.

macraignil the wildlife part is the most essential part from what I have seen here in my garden. The pests are reducing each year with less intervention from me.

macraignil · 20-11-2019 11:18pm

vistafinder wrote: »

Absolutely. I know what your saying.
But is it possible in our climate to live off perennials all year. I wasn't able to figure out a plan for it. Genuinely am interested in ideas.

Instead I thought it would be better to learn to be able to provide vegetables all year around for our household and then add in perennials and all the time letting the native landscape do it's own thing as much as possible which will attract all our native wildlife.

Im doing it the opposite to what Jeoff Lawton recommends but my own food was first priority.

macraignil the wildlife part is the most essential part from what I have seen here in my garden. The pests are reducing each year with less intervention from me.

There are some perennial crops that crop over a long period of time that could be useful to consider as additions but I see no problem with adding annuals to the mix as well. Rhubarb can be harvested from March to the start of September and Jerusalem artichoke can be harvested from the end of September to April. Perennials in even an unheated greenhouse will often crop over a long period. I still harvested some Autumn raspberries and some grapes from my unheated poly-tunnel earlier in the week and there were some strawberries that were close to being ripe for picking. There are also perennial crops that store easily like cooking apples and some nuts when they are kept dry. I think if you wanted to live off perennial crops you would need to grow some with some protection from the harshest weather to extend the harvest season and also store some of the crops. Lots of things now can be cooked and frozen to be used after a very long storage period so we are not just reliant of traditional techniques like jam making or brewing.

Great to hear that wildlife is getting to play a better role in your garden. Even besides the pest control element the presence of more variety of living things in the garden makes it a much nicer place to spend time in.

Aboppy1 · 21-11-2019 3:27pm

chaenomeles are nice ground cover, flower well and produce fruit.

macraignil · 21-11-2019 5:05pm

Aboppy1 wrote: »

chaenomeles are nice ground cover, flower well and produce fruit.

I like chaenomeles as well and think they are very good for having flowers in the garden at a time when very few other plants are flowering but don't they get a bit big to be counted as a ground cover? The mature one my neighbour across the road has is about a metre and a half tall and I think one my grandmother had growing up against a shed was about two metres tall. Is there a smaller variety you know of that would be shorter and not compete much with fruit trees?

auspicious · 27-11-2019 1:09am

hard-core premaculture

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9T4T-LqQJk

epicmoe · 27-11-2019 5:36pm

I recommend talking to earthcare design (earthcare.ie I think)
Very helpful, knowledgeable and professional premature services

macraignil · 13-12-2019 4:13pm

Found another video on permaculture in Ireland which features this guy in Cork who claims to be a consultant on the topic.

macraignil · 11-01-2020 1:42pm

Lumen wrote: »

I have planted two years ago, with producivity this year:

- Aronia (18): enough for breakfast for maybe 3 weeks
- Cobnut (3): 1 smallish bowl
- Viburnum tinus (70): nothing much, hedging planted for the birds
- Eleagnus ebbingei (70): nothing much, hedging planted for the birds
- Stella cherry on Gisela 5 (1): 1 smallish bowl
- Cornelian Cherry (3): a handful
- Walnut (3): nothing yet
- Plum Opal on St Julien (1): maybe 4 fruit
- Pinus Pinea (6): nothing yet, expect to be waiting another decade or two
- Medlar Nottingham (1): loads but predictably foul, planted for amusement value

I think my main issue is that I've gone for an orchard-style planting, with spacing maximised for productivity (apart from the hedging). So now I have to maintain the grass which is a lot of faff.

So I'd be interested in finding (ideally productive) ground cover plants for the boundary of aronia/cornelian cherry, otherwise I'll be spending the rest of my life strimming and mulching.

Also I have a lot of open ornamental beds which require constant weeding, so productive ground cover would be good for those too.

All I can think of right now is wild strawberry.

Just found this video of an English forest garden grower who explains why comfrey is a good ground cover plant in this video.

Here is a short clip showing one growing in my own garden. I had read they were good for improving soil fertility with their deep roots but the video above claims they root deeper than the fruit trees in the established forest garden which I was not aware of. The flowers are nice and long lasting and it just sprouts up again each spring. I originally just grew them from seeds I got through the post. The video above recommends chopping them down after flowering but I have always just let them die back naturally at the end of the year. There is another variety I have that has already started growing fresh leaves now but does not grow as tall as the one in the video clips. Might be a ground cover worth considering just for the soil improvement and pollinator food for near your fruit plants. I also read that established plants can be divided to increase numbers.

rolion · 17-01-2020 12:51am

Really interested thread.
Thanks

Wondering how are you planning to deal with natural threats, such as those little small pesky that can damage a salad / spinach culture over night !?

macraignil · 17-01-2020 8:32am

rolion wrote: »

Really interested thread.
Thanks

Wondering how are you planning to deal with natural threats, such as those little small pesky that can damage a salad / spinach culture over night !?

I think of a permaculture system as running off a type of organic growing style that relies more on nature to deal with pests. Slugs for example have natural predators in the garden so encouraging birds, frogs and hedge hogs keeps the slug numbers at a less damaging level. Leaving less places for the slugs to hide is important and even microscopic slug predators like nematodes can be propagated. Built a wildlife pond here to give a home for frogs so hoping they will be more frequent this year. Also important to keep seedlings away from open ground until they are big enough to survive pests like slugs. I also regularly cut them in half with a trowel when doing any work in the garden but honestly am seeing less of them as the garden is maturing.

macraignil · 20-01-2020 2:42pm

rolion wrote: »

Really interested thread.
Thanks

Wondering how are you planning to deal with natural threats, such as those little small pesky that can damage a salad / spinach culture over night !?

Also here is a link to an article that explains a method that could potentially help reduce a problem with slugs in the garden without chemicals.

There is no chance the frogs will be using the pond built for them in my own garden as it looks today.

macraignil · 08-03-2020 12:58pm

I realise we are getting to the end of the bare root tree planting season but I just found this website tree search filter useful for selecting trees for different characteristics from their fairly extensive list. Not used the company myself and I get the impression they are more geared towards the larger scale customer but thought the search tool they have and the tree information in it might be useful for anyone looking for ideas for what could be good to plant.

Experience with permaculture or creating a forest garden?

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