End of #metoo

o1s1n · 06-12-2018 11:27am

Mrsmum wrote: »

If men are a bit ? at the moment, could ye not take it on the chin for a small while until a lot of this is cleansed, we've had to take it on the chin for years.

No, men are not one homogeneous group. I'm not 'taking one for the team' to make you feel better.

If I see someone acting inappropriately or someone in trouble (both male or female) and I'm in a position to do something, I will.

I am not, however, going to laden myself with the 'guilt' of my gender. I agree that people should not have to face abuse because of the gender they are born to, that works both ways.

Mrsmum · 06-12-2018 11:34am

o1s1n wrote: »

If I see someone acting inappropriately or someone in trouble (both male or female) and I'm in a position to do something, I will. /QUOTE]

Excellent. Hope others do the same and it will be stamped out in no time.

B0jangles · 06-12-2018 11:36am

professore wrote: »

I definitely believe sexual harassment exists and is widespread, although far far less than 10 years ago. However this isnt the same thing as saying men can't be falsely accused. And the bar now is so low in the US at least, pretty much any interaction with a woman can be deemed sexual harassment. Like the guy in the pic.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Some women really believe that every interaction any man has with them is sexual.

Let's put it this way : the numbers of actual sexual harassing men and the numbers of paranoid accusing women - on a scale from calling a man creepy they don't like, spreading untrue rumours about them or full blown false accusations - are about the same.

Since both have multiple victims, pretty much everyone of either gender will have at least one story about meeting at least one. This doesn't mean that ALL men or women are like this.

It astonishes me how people of both genders deny this about their own gender, or lots of men deny it about the opposite gender.

Do you have any evidence to back these assertions up or are they just more things you've decided must be true because you like the sound of them in your head?

AudreyHepburn · 06-12-2018 1:09pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

A lot of calling out the #metoo is coming from folk nervous and wanting to go back to a time were women kept quiet unless they were really really raped. It's sad. It you're not acting like a scumbag you'll be fine. Yes there are exceptions, but that's true of anything

Rubbish. The calling out of metoo is about the fact that it is determined to deny men due process after an accusation has been made and wants to portray all men as sexual aggressors.

This may come as a shock to you but not every accusation is true. Women can and do lie. We can and do make mistakes. To deny this is at best woefully naive.

We can’t just take every accusation at face value, it’s a dangerous precedent to set.

The other major problem is the unwillingness within the metoo campaign to accept that there are lines and degrees when it comes to sexual interaction just as there are degrees of murder.

Like it or not a pinch on the bum or a hand on your arm is not the same as rape or serious sexual assault and to try and pretend it is is an insult to real victims.

meeeeh · 06-12-2018 1:39pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Like it or not a pinch on the bum or a hand on your arm is not the same as rape or serious sexual assault and to try and pretend it is is an insult to real victims.

Who claims they are the same?

And stop with the 'real victims' if people cared about 'real' victims there wouldn't be so many of them.

professore · 06-12-2018 1:56pm

B0jangles wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to back these assertions up or are they just more things you've decided must be true because you like the sound of them in your head?

There must be less than 10 years ago as otherwise all #metoo has achieved is to alienate men from women and vice versa.

Ask any man if he has any crazy girlfriend / woman / sister story and he would tell you if he's not afraid of being labelled a misogynist. Hell ask any honest woman and she'll tell you of crazy friends she had in the past too. As would any man about other men. It's human nature - some of us are nutcases.

Zorya · 06-12-2018 2:24pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Who claims they are the same?
.

#MeToo does. That's the whole problem. The conflation of harrassment and assault.

There should be two different movements. One against actual violence. The other against nasty ignorant behaviour. Because...they are different things.

The Me Too movement (or #MeToo movement), with many local and international alternative names, is a movement against sexual harassment and sexual assault

~ Wikipedia

Sexual Harrassment as per Wikipedia ~

Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature and the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors. Sexual harassment includes a range of actions from mild transgressions to sexual abuse or assault.

Sexual Assault as per Wikipedia ~

Sexual assault is an act in which a person intentionally sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will. It is a form of sexual violence which includes rape (forced vaginal, anal or oral penetration or drug facilitated sexual assault), groping, child sexual abuse or the torture of the person in a sexual manner.

Grayson · 06-12-2018 2:35pm

professore wrote: »

I definitely believe sexual harassment exists and is widespread, although far far less than 10 years ago. However this isnt the same thing as saying men can't be falsely accused. And the bar now is so low in the US at least, pretty much any interaction with a woman can be deemed sexual harassment. Like the guy in the pic.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Some women really believe that every interaction any man has with them is sexual.

Let's put it this way : the numbers of actual sexual harassing men and the numbers of paranoid accusing women - on a scale from calling a man creepy they don't like, spreading untrue rumours about them or full blown false accusations - are about the same.

Since both have multiple victims, pretty much everyone of either gender will have at least one story about meeting at least one. This doesn't mean that ALL men or women are like this.

It astonishes me how people of both genders deny this about their own gender, or lots of men deny it about the opposite gender.

I just read this today. It's about how people underestimate who widespread sexual harassment is

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/06/men-underestimate-level-of-sexual-harassment-against-women-survey

Grayson · 06-12-2018 2:37pm

professore wrote: »

There must be less than 10 years ago as otherwise all #metoo has achieved is to alienate men from women and vice versa.

Ask any man if he has any crazy girlfriend / woman / sister story and he would tell you if he's not afraid of being labelled a misogynist. Hell ask any honest woman and she'll tell you of crazy friends she had in the past too. As would any man about other men. It's human nature - some of us are nutcases.

So what you're saying is that women shouldn't speak publicly about when they were sexually assaulted or harassed. It's all better if no-one says a word?

py2006 · 06-12-2018 3:17pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

Makes as much sense as your statement.

What statement?

Mrsmum wrote: »

The vast majority of men do not rape or sexually assault obviously but a sizeable proportion behave in sexually offensive ways towards women. I bet you've all seen it. There are right creeps for whom doing it all the time is a way of life but nice men behave in sexually inappropriate ways on occasions too.

I've seen enough women behave in this manner too.

Reviews and Books Galore · 06-12-2018 3:22pm

Grayson wrote: »

So what you're saying is that women shouldn't speak publicly about when they were sexually assaulted or harassed. It's all better if no-one says a word?

That's kind of grasping there, Grayson.

professore · 06-12-2018 3:33pm

Grayson wrote: »

So what you're saying is that women shouldn't speak publicly about when they were sexually assaulted or harassed. It's all better if no-one says a word?

B0jangles · 06-12-2018 3:42pm

professore wrote: »

There must be less than 10 years ago as otherwise all #metoo has achieved is to alienate men from women and vice versa.

Ask any man if he has any crazy girlfriend / woman / sister story and he would tell you if he's not afraid of being labelled a misogynist. Hell ask any honest woman and she'll tell you of crazy friends she had in the past too. As would any man about other men. It's human nature - some of us are nutcases.

So that's a no then.

professore · 06-12-2018 3:47pm

B0jangles wrote: »

So that's a no then.

Where's your evidence of rampant sexual harassment against women in Ireland in 2018?

I actually think there is a lot of it, but getting actual evidence isn't so easy. Especially if you discard non independent surveys.

Not sure what your game is, I have never disputed that there is lots of sexual harassment against women, yet you take a condescending tone with me.

Also never once acknowledged that there are evil women out there, and quite a few of them.

B0jangles · 06-12-2018 3:56pm

professore wrote: »

Where's your evidence of rampant sexual harassment against women in Ireland in 2018?

I actually think there is a lot of it, but getting actual evidence isn't so easy. Especially if you discard non independent surveys.

Not sure what your game is, I have never disputed that there is lots of sexual harassment against women, yet you take a condescending tone with me.

Also never once acknowledged that there are evil women out there, and quite a few of them.

https://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/majorityof-studentsexperience-sexual-harassment-860425.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2018/0721/979746-sexual-assaults-increased-by-almost-30-in-some-regions/

That's after about 30 seconds of googling.
My problem is that you have an ongoing tendency to completely invent situations and statistics and then argue as though your made-up evidence is of any value whatsoever.

meeeeh · 06-12-2018 4:07pm

Zorya wrote: »

#MeToo does. That's the whole problem. The conflation of harrassment and assault.

There should be two different movements. One against actual violence. The other against nasty ignorant behaviour. Because...they are different things.

Ah stop with the nonsense.

That like saying UNICEF shouldn't be a charity for all children because kids who are just growing up in poverty are suffering less than those that are also living in wartorn countries.

Grayson · 06-12-2018 4:10pm

professore wrote: »

Not really. The point of metoo is to raise awareness. It's to show that harassment is commonplace. It's literally women saying that's happened to "me too".

You're saying that it's causing men and women to turn against each other. So are you saying women shouldn't speak out and share their experiences? Or what. Do you think they should stop? Keep going? Keep it to themselves? what do you think they should do.

The thing is, as the link I shared shows, people aren't aware of the extent that this happens. So something does need to be done.

leggo · 06-12-2018 4:48pm

Again, as a man and someone looking at this relatively objectively because sexual harassment doesn't infringe on my day-to-day life, it's quite clear what's happening. Women are saying "Men do this"*, some sensitive men are taking that as an accusation and saying "Excuse me!" as if they're being accused themselves**, there are loads of people getting WAY too defensive and trying to discredit and shut the whole thing down like a politician pre-empting a scandal.

But it's also clearly working. I think anyone with any kind of grasp of what's going on in the world will think twice about how they deal with situations before jumping to getting sexually suggestive, which was kinda the whole point. There isn't a mass upsurge of men getting put behind bars falsely so the rule of law is intact, in fact there hasn't been one change to the law since this began and if anything it still could be seen as oppressive. Men are complaining even here about being scared to talk to women, which I find funny because it's like when casual racism started to get clamped down on and people of a different generation used to complain that "You can't say anything anymore!" No, just don't be racist/creepy and you're fine. If you don't know how to do that, well here's a learning opportunity and do the homework yourself or people will judge you, simple. People are resistant and reacting to change because they're uncomfortable confronting the fact that it's them that need to change.

Like you can criticise certain elements of the movement if you get down to the nitty-gritty, there are definitely people who've used it for their own gain, but these are things you can also say about any movement that's ever happened in the history of movements. In terms of goal vs impact, though, it's been about as successful as it could be.

*which is an insensitive, if more convenient, way of putting it to be fair and doesn't pass the "Is this offensive if you put the word 'black people' in here?" test.

**which is ridiculous to anyone with any sense of nuance as it's clear that the distinction is, "This happens on a wide enough scale that it's a gender issue but obviously I'm not saying every single man ever does this."

professore · 06-12-2018 4:49pm

B0jangles wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/rape-stats-rise-ireland-3929262-Mar2018/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/majorityof-studentsexperience-sexual-harassment-860425.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2018/0721/979746-sexual-assaults-increased-by-almost-30-in-some-regions/

That's after about 30 seconds of googling.
My problem is that you have an ongoing tendency to completely invent situations and statistics and then argue as though your made-up evidence is of any value whatsoever.

Many supposed scientific surveys in social sciences are based on inventing a viewpoint and then manufacturing evidence to support it.

I never claimed to have stats on what I was saying. As I said there have been no surveys about women's actual behaviour in the workplace - anything I can find online all start out from the standpoint of how they are horribly oppressed and how to foster a better working environment for them.

A study on actual behaviour patterns without a preconceived agenda - i.e. an ACTUAL scientific study - would be very interesting.

A lot of the stuff is utter rubbish, for example : https://www.redventures.com/blog/2015/11/18/5-major-differences-between-men-and-women-at-work/

Men tend to view the world through a lens of hierarchy, with respect and value placed on authority and following orders. Men are more comfortable operating in well-defined territories where there’s clarity about which voices hold how much authority. A structure where the goal is “get more territory.”

Meanwhile, women learned not to view the world in hierarchies, but instead in a series of concentric flat circles based on relationships and a common understanding of a shared goal. Within those flat structures, women find themselves attempting to create a level playing field ensuring everyone is treated fairly, everyone has a seat at the table and everyone’s voices are heard — regardless of position, experience and level of authority.

This is just utter sh1te. Women and men are individuals, and I would never associate giving everyone a fair voice as a female characteristic. In my experience women are just as likely as men to step over each other for promotion.

Getting to your links, the first source refers to rape stats. Rape is not sexual harassment.

From your second source it seems sexual harassment is, while not quite as big a problem, is a significant problem for male students as it is for females.

Sexual harassment: In a survey of 632 students, 54% of first-year women students report experiencing sexual hostility or crude gender harassment at some point since starting college, rising to 64% among second-year women students, and 70% in third- or subsequent year. The comparable figures for men are: 25%, 37%, and 40%;

Outlaw Pete · 06-12-2018 5:05pm

leggo wrote: »

Again, as a man and someone looking at this relatively objectively because sexual harassment doesn't infringe on my day-to-day life, it's quite clear what's happening.

Just because you have an objective doesn't mean you are objective.

B0jangles · 06-12-2018 5:06pm

professore wrote: »

Many supposed scientific surveys in social sciences are based on inventing a viewpoint and then manufacturing evidence to support it.

I never claimed to have stats on what I was saying. As I said there have been no surveys about women's actual behaviour in the workplace - anything I can find online all start out from the standpoint of how they are horribly oppressed and how to foster a better working environment for them.

A study on actual behaviour patterns without a preconceived agenda - i.e. an ACTUAL scientific study - would be very interesting.

A lot of the stuff is utter rubbish, for example : https://www.redventures.com/blog/2015/11/18/5-major-differences-between-men-and-women-at-work/

This is just utter sh1te. Women and men are individuals, and I would never associate giving everyone a fair voice as a female characteristic. In my experience women are just as likely as men to step over each other for promotion.

Getting to your links, the first source refers to rape stats. Rape is not sexual harassment.

From your second source it seems sexual harassment is, while not quite as big a problem, is a significant problem for male students as it is for females.

You literally invented all your 'evidence' and you're nitpicking the standard of mine?

edit: and guess what - male students experiencing sexual harassment is bad too! I think they should 100% be able to speak out about it - I support the right of all victims of sexual harassment to speak out about their experiences.

Your attitude seems to be that women should shut up and stop complaining because the same thing probably happens to men sometimes too - I believe that no-one should have to keep quiet about being harassed just because their speaking out makes some people really uncomfortable.

Zorya · 06-12-2018 5:31pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Ah stop with the nonsense.

That like saying UNICEF shouldn't be a charity for all children because kids who are just growing up in poverty are suffering less than those that are also living in wartorn countries.

Ahhhh stop with the nonsense.

leggo · 06-12-2018 5:39pm

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Just because you have an objective doesn't mean you are objective.

What objective could I have on boards beyond "killing time when I should be doing something else"? Or are you high and that's just a thing that sounded good in your head?

Zorya · 06-12-2018 5:41pm

leggo wrote: »

What objective could I have on boards beyond "killing time when I should be doing something else"? Or are you high and that's just a thing that sounded good in your head?

Woah, Bro. Play the ball.

leggo · 06-12-2018 5:43pm

Being high isn't an insult.

Zorya · 06-12-2018 5:46pm

leggo wrote: »

Being high isn't an insult.

:pac: The word games! You used it in a context ie it was contextual ie it was depending on the preceding or following parts of a text to clarify meaning. Or are you high?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 06-12-2018 5:49pm

leggo wrote: »

Being high isn't an insult.

Of course it is.

It implies that the poster is under the influence of a mind altering substance which is affecting their ability to debate.

leggo · 06-12-2018 5:54pm

First question: do you guys talk like this amongst your friends? Defining basic words and concepts in a patronising tone to try score points on a point you disagree on? Taking throwaway comments and trying to scandalise them to dunk on people?

Follow-up question: have you ever noticed that less and less people want to talk to you after you’ve spoken to them like this? Curious.

py2006 · 06-12-2018 5:57pm

leggo wrote: »

First question: do you guys talk like this amongst your friends? Defining basic words and concepts in a patronising tone to try score points on a point you disagree on? Taking throwaway comments and trying to scandalise them to dunk on people?

Follow-up question: have you ever noticed that less and less people want to talk to you after you’ve spoken to them like this? Curious.

Do you have ANY male friends?

leggo · 06-12-2018 6:08pm

py2006 wrote: »

Do you have ANY male friends?

:pac::pac::pac:

LOVE how revealing this thread is! It's great craic! So you, py2006, see a guy who's entire point is, "Just ask for consent, it's really easy not to sexually harass someone", this bothers you for whatever reason and you think, "Oooh I'm gonna get that guy good!"

You try figure stuff out about me to 'get me where it hurts' and you say, "Hmm...what'll get him? Lads I know would hate a lad talking about consent, he must not have any male friends!" and hit me with the verbal KO blow.

Except, in the real world, asking for consent doesn't lose you any friends. At least not in my world or I imagine many of those reading. That's just your perception of reality based around your own circle. So your assumption actually implies that you and your mates are pretty creepy dudes who'd shun someone for not being how you see 'one of the lads'. Tough look for you dude.

End of #metoo

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