Right of way issues.

Graces7 · 08-09-2010 2:00pm #1

We have been here over three weeks now, and almost all the glitches are sorted at last.

The landlord put in a gate across the drive for us; partly to keep our dogs in safe and also for privacy reasons. He and the agent understood the reasons and that the gate would be kept locked at all times.

Before the gate went up, we had wire netting across the drive; and several times it was moved during the night....

Always in darkness and he clearly never came really near the house as the dogs would have heard him; we knew it was someone on foot thus.

When the gate went up. there was still a gap at the side and until we got that properly clsed off, everything we put up there was removed.

Our name sign was torn down and our mailbox smashed, which made us all the more determined to make the gate secure.

Which we did and for a few nights all has been peaceful.

Today we were out in the field picking blackberries when a disembodied voice greeted us from behind the hedge.;)

Just chat at first; then accusations of sin; talk of a right of way, that we had no right to lock the gate, that he would get the guards out to us and have us up in court. ( OK... )

We asked if it was him who had moved things etc, and yes he had.

Where does this right of way lead? Nowhere. It is about 20 yards to our house windows is all. We noticed on the map an old boreen at the back, but it is all overgrown with ancient brambles and has not been used for many, many years.

So what is the point of this, we wonder.

He said he had had the right of way for 80 years.... Our understanding is that such a right if way had to be used daily? It has not been even wehn he was entering; every few nights only.

And then only to the house. Which he does not own.

We spoke with the landlord; he had never mentioned this and nor had the agent. Which we said was simply not fair.
( there are special needs here which both agent and landlord knew of and thius agreed to the gate which they knew would be kept locked at all times)

As we said, we would not have taken the house had we known that there would in effect be no real privacy.

The landlord said that they had owned the property for 20 years and never any issues.They bought land and house then and needed not this house to live in so it had been empty a long while.

We thought someone had been using the house as they had to put a new door on.

Does anyone have detailled, accurate knowledge re right of way issues, please? We think he was just riled to see the gate go up?

Thank you

NB just found this on the citizens info page

Right of way

There is a distinction in Irish law between public and private rights of way. A public right of way is a person's right of passage along a road or path, even if the road or path is not in public ownership. A private right of way is the right to enter onto private lands, but only for the purposes of gaining access to or exiting from another piece of land.

convert · 08-09-2010 2:43pm

Your best bet would be to contact a legal expert who has experience in this area. They'll be able to advise you better and more accurately than most people here (no offence intended to anybody!

).

Graces7 · 08-09-2010 3:05pm

convert wrote: »

Your best bet would be to contact a legal expert who has experience in this area. They'll be able to advise you better and more accurately than most people here (no offence intended to anybody! ).

Thanks; and for the tact.

Life in rural Ireland can get seriously weird at times.

The landlord said he would talk to him so maybe it will fizzle out; it was bizarre not being able to see the man; thick high hedge. And the idea of someone prowling around at dead of night it got quite scary at one stage.

Ortiz · 08-09-2010 3:15pm

Press charges for trespassing and damage to private property.

When this property was built 20 years ago this issue would have come up at the time i'm sure. If you can get your hands on a surveyors report/planning permission documents etc. it would be very clear (ask the LL). This would just be cheaper than seeking legal advice

geem · 08-09-2010 3:16pm

Graces7 wrote: »

We have been here over three weeks now, and almost all the glitches are sorted at last.

The landlord put in a gate across the drive for us; partly to keep our dogs in safe and also for privacy reasons. He and the agent understood the reasons and that the gate would be kept locked at all times.

Before the gate went up, we had wire netting across the drive; and several times it was moved during the night....

Always in darkness and he clearly never came really near the house as the dogs would have heard him; we knew it was someone on foot thus.

When the gate went up. there was still a gap at the side and until we got that properly clsed off, everything we put up there was removed.

Our name sign was torn down and our mailbox smashed, which made us all the more determined to make the gate secure.

Which we did and for a few nights all has been peaceful.

Today we were out in the field picking blackberries when a disembodied voice greeted us from behind the hedge.;)

Just chat at first; then accusations of sin; talk of a right of way, that we had no right to lock the gate, that he would get the guards out to us and have us up in court. ( OK... )

We asked if it was him who had moved things etc, and yes he had.

Where does this right of way lead? Nowhere. It is about 20 yards to our house windows is all. We noticed on the map an old boreen at the back, but it is all overgrown with ancient brambles and has not been used for many, many years.

So what is the point of this, we wonder.

He said he had had the right of way for 80 years.... Our understanding is that such a right if way had to be used daily? It has not been even wehn he was entering; every few nights only.

And then only to the house. Which he does not own.

We spoke with the landlord; he had never mentioned this and nor had the agent. Which we said was simply not fair.
( there are special needs here which both agent and landlord knew of and thius agreed to the gate which they knew would be kept locked at all times)

As we said, we would not have taken the house had we known that there would in effect be no real privacy.

The landlord said that they had owned the property for 20 years and never any issues.They bought land and house then and needed not this house to live in so it had been empty a long while.

We thought someone had been using the house as they had to put a new door on.

Does anyone have detailled, accurate knowledge re right of way issues, please? We think he was just riled to see the gate go up?

Thank you

NB just found this on the citizens info page

Right of way

There is a distinction in Irish law between public and private rights of way. A public right of way is a person's right of passage along a road or path, even if the road or path is not in public ownership. A private right of way is the right to enter onto private lands, but only for the purposes of gaining access to or exiting from another piece of land.

Disembodied voices coming from behind hedges - I'd be gone.

convert · 08-09-2010 3:22pm

geem wrote: »

Disembodied voices coming from behind hedges - I'd be gone.

I think a rather long poking stick would be a good idea, too! One that would reach through thick hedges would be preferable.

Graces7 · 08-09-2010 3:27pm

geem wrote: »

Disembodied voices coming from behind hedges - I'd be gone.

Well, for a minute there!!

We had the two dogs with us and they barked like troopers.. and of course we have the sign up BEWARE OF THE DOGS ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK.

As long as he does not try breaking through the boreen with a digger!

Graces7 · 08-09-2010 3:33pm

Ortiz wrote: »

Press charges for trespassing and damage to private property.

When this property was built 20 years ago this issue would have come up at the time i'm sure. If you can get your hands on a surveyors report/planning permission documents etc. it would be very clear (ask the LL). This would just be cheaper than seeking legal advice

We have a good friend who is in the law;as for the landlord? He is almost illiterate. I am sure the threats were just bravado. if he has had the right of way 80 years as he says, he must be very, very old?

Oh; the house is much older than 20 years. The LL's father bought it when the brother and sister who owned it died. I would think .. maybe 80 years or more.

There probably was/is a right of way through that ancient boreen. But never used surely it has lapsed by now.

Graces7 · 08-09-2010 3:47pm

Ortiz wrote: »

Press charges for trespassing and damage to private property.

When this property was built 20 years ago this issue would have come up at the time i'm sure. If you can get your hands on a surveyors report/planning permission documents etc. it would be very clear (ask the LL). This would just be cheaper than seeking legal advice

We don;t want war, simply. At least now we know who has been doing all this. The LL was none too pleased re the damage; asked if the man had admitted it.

Will maybe leave them to it. And let the dogs carry on keeping all comers at bay..;)

FarmerGreen · 09-09-2010 12:23am

Gracie.
You have just got to write a book.

Graces7 · 09-09-2010 7:30am

FarmerGreen wrote: »

Gracie.
You have just got to write a book.

"The Irishness of Ireland"? The Americans would love it!

Well, we asked our legal friend and apparently this happens often; the right of way goes nowhere.. advice is to make a side gate. But given that he has let the dogs out so often.. Not our responsibility but the LLs; not in our lease that there was a right of way. We suspect that everything ill go verrrrrrrrrrrry quiet now thus; the LL avoids us as he made extravagant promises to get us here and we are making sure he fulfils them. Waiting for topsoil from him now...

But yes, great idea!

D3PO · 09-09-2010 10:52am

I can see the headlines now

RURAL SHOCKER Graces moans about privicy AGAIN :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I think you need to move to a remote island with no people and no internet access.

Either way a right of way issue has nothing to do with you. Its between this 80 year old + person and the landlord.

Now your landlord can either accept the guy has access via this opening or take him to court to get a judgement. Do you really think hes going to pay a legal team to fight something so trivial on behalf of a tennant. I think not.

mikom · 09-09-2010 11:27am

FarmerGreen wrote: »

Gracie.
You have just got to write a book.

"How to win friends and influence people"

seamus · 09-09-2010 11:40am

A little bit of friendliness wouldn't go astray here: Invite the guy in for a cup of tea and explain to him that the gate needs to stay closed because of the dogs, and likewise he can explain to you why he enters the property - he's probably just taking a shortcut through the land.

In rural Ireland it is far easier to just get on with these people than make enemies of them - legal proceedings are long and drawn out and isolated countryfolk tend to not really concern themselves with the possible penalties for damaging property.

So speak to the guy, offer respect from both quarters; I understand that privacy is very important for you in your circumstances, so perhaps ask him to understand and respect that, but at the same time respect the fact that he's been there a lot longer than you and might have very innocent reasons for crossing through the land. If you're locking the gate, perhaps give him a key.

In any case, explain to him the nature of the gate and ask him to co-operate with you. A compromise is better than a legal judgement IMHO.

mrgaa1 · 09-09-2010 12:24pm

right of ways are a pain in the ass. You will find that this guy will be able to produce witness's etc... saying he's been there before and all the rest. You have every right to lock the gate - but he'll need a key. Then the obligation is on him to lock it.
Get your landlord to sort it out - its his land.

Graces7 · 09-09-2010 12:41pm

seamus wrote: »

A little bit of friendliness wouldn't go astray here: Invite the guy in for a cup of tea and explain to him that the gate needs to stay closed because of the dogs, and likewise he can explain to you why he enters the property - he's probably just taking a shortcut through the land.

In rural Ireland it is far easier to just get on with these people than make enemies of them - legal proceedings are long and drawn out and isolated countryfolk tend to not really concern themselves with the possible penalties for damaging property.

So speak to the guy, offer respect from both quarters; I understand that privacy is very important for you in your circumstances, so perhaps ask him to understand and respect that, but at the same time respect the fact that he's been there a lot longer than you and might have very innocent reasons for crossing through the land. If you're locking the gate, perhaps give him a key.

In any case, explain to him the nature of the gate and ask him to co-operate with you. A compromise is better than a legal judgement IMHO.

This sounds all very well; but the man will not meet with us. He has been scaring us by moving barricardes and leaving them open many times since we moved here; always at night, and not closing the gap after himself. Even though we have a sign re the dogs.

And then to shout accusations through a ten feet high hedge? That he is getting the guards to us and taking us to court?

He could have just come to the gate in daylight and spoken to us.

Odd behaviour and not friendly. He would not even give his name and neither would the landlord.

There is no "crossing the land" about it either. This is the driveway to the house and to nowhere else; dead end; period. 20 yards of drive is all that is left of an old right of way. The old boreen it led to is massively overgrown and he does not own land or this house or the surrounding land.

Probably when the old family owned this house, that right of way was used; but that was 20 years ago.

There is no access to anywhere from anywhere, simply. If there were, it would be very different.

So what this is really about defeats us.

We have no intention of taking legal action; advice is different.

We had something similar a few years ago; again, a driveway and the LL had given the farmer who leased the land on either side a wayleave to use the drive AND the courtyard of the house itself - as a cattle mustering space.
ie there would be cattle and sheep at the very door and in our garden.

It was in the lease that time that if we intended to keep the gate locked, then the farmer must have access to a key. So we said, OK; he can come to the house for it.

We heard no more; he did not actually need the drive as there were other gates into the fields.

As someone else has said, this is between him and the LL: who should have told us about this. As should the agent of course; they knew the special cirumstances and conditions needed for us.

Graces7 · 09-09-2010 12:54pm

D3PO wrote: »

I can see the headlines now

RURAL SHOCKER Graces moans about privicy AGAIN :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I think you need to move to a remote island with no people and no internet access.

Either way a right of way issue has nothing to do with you. Its between this 80 year old + person and the landlord.

Now your landlord can either accept the guy has access via this opening or take him to court to get a judgement. Do you really think hes going to pay a legal team to fight something so trivial on behalf of a tennant. I think not.

Rather a bizarre remark.

We all have choices and requirements and needs as to accommodation and we went to a lot of trouble to find this house and with the promise of seclusion and privacy.

Had we known there was a strange old man haunting the place at night?
Or that there was any kind of a right of way?

As for internet access; very poor here but we can live with that. With an old one letting our dogs loose and coming to the windows etc whenever he feels like it?

seamus · 09-09-2010 1:07pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Odd behaviour and not friendly.

You've been living in the wilds of rural Ireland long enough now to be unsurprised when you encounter odd and unfriendly people

I still don't think it prevents a meeting with this guy, you might just need to work at it.

There is no "crossing the land" about it either. This is the driveway to the house and to nowhere else; dead end; period. 20 yards of drive is all that is left of an old right of way. The old boreen it led to is massively overgrown and he does not own land or this house or the surrounding land.

Well he's coming in for some reason. And I think you're stuck with this problem until you can find out what this reason is. If he's taking a shortcut which you just can't see at present, then you can work with him. If he's just skulking around the land then you can call the Gardai and have him arrested for trespassing.

He could also just be plain crazy - he's accessing the land and breaking stuff purely because he doesn't like the fact that his access to the boreen has been cut off, even though he never actually uses it. We sometimes have funny ideas about land in this country.

I would be inclined to stay awake overnight and confront him with a torch and a friendly hello when he comes onto the land, but that might not work for you.

As someone else has said, this is between him and the LL: who should have told us about this. As should the agent of course; they knew the special cirumstances and conditions needed for us.

From what you describe, the landlord may have been completely unaware of it.
I would put pressure on the landlord to stick in some kind of solution that allows access to the boreen but keeps your dogs in. Even a chain-link fence along one side of the property would suffice without breaking the bank.

ztoical · 09-09-2010 1:13pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Rather a bizarre remark.

We all have choices and requirements and needs as to accommodation and we went to a lot of trouble to find this house and with the promise of seclusion and privacy.

Had we known there was a strange old man haunting the place at night?
Or that there was any kind of a right of way?

As for internet access; very poor here but we can live with that. With an old one letting our dogs loose and coming to the windows etc whenever he feels like it?

Grace even you have to admit you seem to have had a higher then average list of issues with LL and neighbours over the last year and you can't balame people on the forum from starting to think maybe it's not all the other peoples fault and you may be expecting a little too much.

Go seek proper legal advice if it is an issue.

Graces7 · 09-09-2010 1:17pm

seamus wrote: »

You've been living in the wilds of rural Ireland long enough now to be unsurprised when you encounter odd and unfriendly people

Yes indeed and some of our experiences have made us both wary and very jumpy; being assaulted is not funny.

I still don't think it prevents a meeting with this guy, you might just need to work at it.

Seemingly he is not willing; else he would have come to see us some weeks back.
At present there is illness here and all are overstretched.

Well he's coming in for some reason. And I think you're stuck with this problem until you can find out what this reason is. If he's taking a shortcut which you just can't see at present, then you can work with him. If he's just skulking around the land then you can call the Gardai and have him arrested for trespassing.

There is no short cut to anywhere. The house/garden is totally enclosed by a stone wall etc.

He could also just be plain crazy - he's accessing the land and breaking stuff purely because he doesn't like the fact that his access to the boreen has been cut off, even though he never actually uses it. We sometimes have funny ideas about land in this country.

Really? We have known this all along of course. This latter is the only answer of course.

I would be inclined to stay awake overnight and confront him with a torch and a friendly hello when he comes onto the land, but that might not work for you.

Not possible for many reasons, including illness.

From what you describe, the landlord may have been completely unaware of it.

No; he knew as we learned when we confronted him yesterday.
When we said that he should have told us and that he had not been fair, there was silence. And he put the gate in for us knowing it was to be locked 24/7

I would put pressure on the landlord to stick in some kind of solution that allows access to the boreen but keeps your dogs in. Even a chain-link fence along one side of the property would suffice without breaking the bank.

The layout here precludes that sadly.

We will wait now and see.... We had emailed the agent re the nocturnal invasions and never hada reply; now we know why. The ball is in their court and the gate is locked!

Thanks for your caring on this,

PopUp · 09-09-2010 2:36pm

seamus wrote: »

He could also just be plain crazy - he's accessing the land and breaking stuff purely because he doesn't like the fact that his access to the boreen has been cut off, even though he never actually uses it. We sometimes have funny ideas about land in this country.

This is my thought, to be honest. Grace if I were you I'd contact the guards. Name signs torn down, postbox smashed? That's criminal damage. Accusations of sin through a hedge? Refusing to give his name? I'd have a word with the guards, who will probably know this guy well, let them warn him about destroying your property. It sounds like you have a semi-senile Bull McCabe on your hands.

the_syco · 09-09-2010 5:13pm

If he refuses to give you his name, tell him that as you don't know his name, you don't know if he is who he says he is.

Look for graves around where he goes to. I'm deadly serious. There may be a reason why he insists on going there. Also, find out from the Gardai if he's "known to them".

Graces7 · 09-09-2010 5:41pm

PopUp wrote: »

This is my thought, to be honest. Grace if I were you I'd contact the guards. Name signs torn down, postbox smashed? That's criminal damage. Accusations of sin through a hedge? Refusing to give his name? I'd have a word with the guards, who will probably know this guy well, let them warn him about destroying your property. It sounds like you have a semi-senile Bull McCabe on your hands.

Well, the landlord was very upset re the damage and said he would have a word, and I rather suspect that that will see the end of it.

This is a very small and close knit community and we don't want to involve the police unless we have to.

If they can sort it among themselves it is better for everyone.

Also when we mentioned the dreaded word "solicitor" the landlord blenched.

Also we intend to have a word with the local priest as he knews re the damage and was concerned. Before we knew what was going on..He carries clout here still. "tis a small village region

Mr Invisible has not been able to get in for a week now as we got a very firm fence in that is also padlocked. And he clearly cannot climb tha gate.

And we are avoiding that part of the field when we exercise the dogs. Bizarre indeed; I am a wee bit jumpy but..If he comes near they will start and if I see or hear an intruder will dial 999...

Thank you; I feel a lot better now! There was so much trouble at our last house and we so hoped for peace here.. it will come finally.

Glenalla · 09-09-2010 6:23pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Rather a bizarre remark.

We all have choices and requirements and needs as to accommodation and we went to a lot of trouble to find this house and with the promise of seclusion and privacy.

So much trouble you didn't even bother to view it!!

Had we known there was a strange old man haunting the place at night?
Or that there was any kind of a right of way?

Strange old man being haunted now!

FarmerGreen · 09-09-2010 11:09pm

Did I hear a wolf howl?

Graces7 · 10-09-2010 9:49am

Glenalla wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

Rather a bizarre remark.

We all have choices and requirements and needs as to accommodation and we went to a lot of trouble to find this house and with the promise of seclusion and privacy.

So much trouble you didn't even bother to view it!!

Ah tis thee again!! Nice to see you once more. Something constructive would be even nicer.

We are not all able to travel 600 miles to view, and as you know well, the only way to be sure of anything is to live in a place as truth is not always told. It certainly was not in our last place.

Factors such as cost, of travel and accommodation, disability. no one to take care of animals etc....
Under threat of illegal eviction etc etc etc. As you well know of course.

Had we known there was a strange old man haunting the place at night?
Or that there was any kind of a right of way?

Strange old man being haunted now!

Why do you misread things? Strange habit is that. Serves no real purpose either.

Glenalla · 10-09-2010 6:31pm

Graces7 wrote: »

Glenalla wrote: »

Why do you misread things? Strange habit is that. Serves no real purpose either.

600 Miles??????. Its Donegal not Texas

ztoical · 10-09-2010 6:47pm

Glenalla wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

600 Miles??????. Its Donegal not Texas

+ 1 to travel from the bottom of cork to very top of Donegal is roughly 500 km. One end of Donegal to the other going the long way around the cost is 120km, where are you getting 600 miles from?

Graces7 · 10-09-2010 6:47pm

Glenalla wrote: »

Graces7 wrote: »

600 Miles??????. Its Donegal not Texas

You have just been awarded a place on my "ignore" list; congratulations, young person.

For what is quite the most deliberately silly and inane post this year; and totally off topic.

mikom · 10-09-2010 6:50pm

ztoical wrote: »

Glenalla wrote: »

+ 1 to travel from the bottom of cork to very top of Donegal is roughly 500 km. One end of Donegal to the other going the long way around the cost is 120km, where are you getting 600 miles from?

Stuck on a roundabout on a few occasions, I reckon.

Graces7 · 10-09-2010 7:01pm

Added a few more to ignore...

Right of way issues.

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