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organic farming

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    #632
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Did the Organic Principles Course with NOTS in Drumshanbo in 2019. They have two online May and July this year:
    https://nots.ie/events/organic-production-principles-online-may/

    Well worth doing if considering organics.
    You'd want to devise a plan as to what enterprises you would put on the 40Ha.
    Can and would you do some tillage?
    For the cattle you could set some grass/red clover mix for silage. Great winter feeding and will largely finish cattle for you.
    Stocking is hard to judge as the grass will get a fair shock if it's used to a good bit of fert, but will bounce up a good bit after a year or two.

    If you joined in 2 years time €220 x 40 Ha = €8,800/yr.


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    #633
    Matteyd
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Matteyd


    Are there any requirements on hedge cutting / forestry as an organic beef farmer? I see theres a lot of talk from teagasc about it increasing biodiversity, but it seems like thats mostly just through having mixed swards.


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    #634
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Matteyd wrote: »
    Are there any requirements on hedge cutting / forestry as an organic beef farmer? I see theres a lot of talk from teagasc about it increasing biodiversity, but it seems like thats mostly just through having mixed swards.

    Looking at Organic Trust info and forestry enterprise is simply left out. They like high hedges as a way of controlling spray drift from neighbours on the boundary.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #635
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    endainoz wrote: »
    My sticking rate was lower anyway to accommodate for the lie back area, this suited my system. If I were you I'd try to have a chat with a proper organic advisor to see what they might say.

    Are you allowed to use slatted units in an organic set up?


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    #636
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Are you allowed to use slatted units in an organic set up?

    Yes, up to 50% of the housing area can be slats, with an equally sized straw bedded lie back area. Around 2.5sq m of each per adult animal, total 5 sq m. Could go to 6 sq m for large cows. An old 3 bay leanto, straw bedded will do forty animals.

    Generally don't do the annual flat top and sides annually on the hedgerows. Generally trim back sides every two years. The variations in height an important for different species of fauna. AFAIK there are no actual rules, more operating with the ethos and objectives of good farming practice.
    Iv'e done mob grazing last year and found animals browse much more, eating the growing tips of briars etc.


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    #637
    rounders
    Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭rounders


    Interesting article about Organic dairy

    https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/dairy-farm-profiles/laois-couple-on-their-dairy-expansion-the-organic-way-40320900.html


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    #638
    manjou
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭manjou


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Are you allowed to use slatted units in an organic set up?

    You cannot bed the slats either. But grant under tams to replace slats with concrete slabs certived strong enough to take tractor


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    #639
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    rounders wrote: »
    Interesting article about Organic dairy

    https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/dairy-farm-profiles/laois-couple-on-their-dairy-expansion-the-organic-way-40320900.html

    Not sure what criteria Glenisk are applying as fully grass fed? In Austria and Germany seems it has to be non fermented hay not silage but they do allow some grain. They are using red clover silage bales I presume for their winter milk.
    20 bales/ac/yr would be good.


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    #640
    JohnChadwick
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭JohnChadwick


    Are you allowed to be in the departments Organic Farming Scheme (OFS) for consecutive terms? To avail of the €170 per hectare rate after having already availed of the [2years x €220(inconversion) + 3years x €170(full symbol)] during the initial 5 year scheme.

    Like when the scheme ends for me in 2023 I will consider stopping farming sucklers organically if there is no top up.

    Would still use the same low-input soil-regenerating high-animal-welfare principles - but without the certification. Would be selling conventionally then obviously.

    This will also give scope to bring down suckler numbers further and buy in some dairy calves too.


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    #641
    rounders
    Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭rounders


    For anyone on Twitter, there is a interesting page called IrelandsFarmers that has a different farmer control the page each week.

    Last week was tomatoes, this week is a organic hill farmer for anyone that's interesting

    https://twitter.com/IrelandsFarmers?s=20


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    #642
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    JohnChadwick wrote: »
    Are you allowed to be in the departments Organic Farming Scheme (OFS) for consecutive terms? To avail of the €170 per hectare rate after having already availed of the [2years x €220(inconversion) + 3years x €170(full symbol)] during the initial 5 year scheme.

    Like when the scheme ends for me in 2023 I will consider stopping farming sucklers organically if there is no top up.

    Would still use the same low-input soil-regenerating high-animal-welfare principles - but without the certification. Would be selling conventionally then obviously.

    This will also give scope to bring down suckler numbers further and buy in some dairy calves too.

    Honestly don't know the answer to consecutive (OFS).
    Don't know if you sell suckler weanlings but is carrying them on further and reducing cow numbers an option? there is a bit of an organic margin in the selling price of weanlings but I think it stretches out more the heavier the animal.
    If you can get Br Fr dairy calves, might be worth considering alright. Really think Holstein Fr wouldn't fare to well in a low input system.
    Think I'd hold on for a year or two to see how the new schemes pan out, incl the new REAP scheme. Which is basically multi species swards and low input pasture/meadow, plus a bit of tress and hedge planting.


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    #643
    JohnChadwick
    Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭JohnChadwick


    Water John wrote: »

    Think I'd hold on for a year or two to see how the new schemes pan out, incl the new REAP scheme. Which is basically multi species swards and low input pasture/meadow, plus a bit of tress and hedge planting.

    Yep same here, will be in the OFS until end of 2023 - so just thinking ahead for 2024 on. REAP starts in 2023 so not sure how the overlap will affect the OFS payment then - things like getting organic seed for MultiSpeciesSward will be tricky.

    Also will be losing ground for new hedges which may impact the OFS payment. (I think there is some sort of 'reference area' in place for the BPS where these losses won't happen).


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    #644
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    https://www.fruithillfarm.com/seeds-and-propagation/green-manures-and-forage-crops/grass-and-meadow-mixes/clover-pasture-silage.html
    Add the herb mix into this if you want.


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    #645
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    The application is gone in the post. Does anybody want to order a box of brac x polly grass fed beef for 2023?

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #646
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,057 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    blue5000 wrote: »
    The application is gone in the post. Does anybody want to order a box of brac x polly grass fed beef for 2023?

    The eco village will be delighted with that


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    #647
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    blue5000 wrote: »
    The application is gone in the post. Does anybody want to order a box of brac x polly grass fed beef for 2023?

    Same as today,twill be an interesting few years


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    #648
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stocked very low here, not really a big fan of intensive farming.

    Currently running around 60 sucklers.

    Whats the best way to look in to organic?


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    #649
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Might be worth getting on to the 2 main organic bodies ,and asking are there any introduction courses coming up , ( prob on line if there are ) ,
    And if you reckon youre into it , and that your housing or feeding could work organically you could shell out for a visit from an organic advisor , and take it from there ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #650
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Might be worth getting on to the 2 main organic bodies ,and asking are there any introduction courses coming up , ( prob on line if there are ) ,
    And if you reckon youre into it , and that your housing or feeding could work organically you could shell out for a visit from an organic advisor , and take it from there ...

    Will check it out, seems like a logical way to go if staying in beef


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    #651
    endainoz
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭endainoz


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Stocked very low here, not really a big fan of intensive farming.

    Currently running around 60 sucklers.

    Whats the best way to look in to organic?

    Well you only have one day left to apply for the scheme so your a little late to the party!


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    #652
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    Applied and hoping to get in,Think it will suit my system as i dont feed much ration but hope to possibly grow something to cover what i need.

    It will be interesting to see how i survive without fertilizer


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    #653
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Prop Joe wrote: »
    Applied and hoping to get in,Think it will suit my system as i dont feed much ration but hope to possibly grow something to cover what i need.

    It will be interesting to see how i survive without fertilizer

    If you're stitching in clover, and your p and k levels are reasonable then that shouldn't be a problem ,
    You might have to adapt your housing a bit ,
    If you can grow a bit of cereal ,and include it in your reseeding then all the better ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #654
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,113 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    NOTS have Organic Course on line both in May and July:
    https://nots.ie/events/holistic-planned-grazing-online-may/

    So Blue and Joe have come over to the dark side, welcome.


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    #655
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    endainoz wrote: »
    Well you only have one day left to apply for the scheme so your a little late to the party!

    I hope that includes tomorrow, ha


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    #656
    manjou
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭manjou


    The thing to remember is the first 2 years are the hardest as you and the land have to adapt to new regieme but there are organic alternatives to alot of stuff
    And grass will grow without artifical n but will take a couple of years to get going.


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    #657
    Dinzee Conlee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    manjou wrote: »
    The thing to remember is the first 2 years are the hardest as you and the land have to adapt to new regieme but there are organic alternatives to alot of stuff
    And grass will grow without artifical n but will take a couple of years to get going.

    Tell me, what do organic farmers do instead of artificial fertiliser?
    Is there an organic alternative?

    I am not organic, but at the same time, I would be interested in moving away from chemical fertiliser if I knew what alternatives were there...


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    #658
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Dinzee Conlee wrote: »
    Tell me, what do organic farmers do instead of artificial fertiliser?
    Is there an organic alternative?

    I am not organic, but at the same time, I would be interested in moving away from chemical fertiliser if I knew what alternatives were there...

    Red clover and italian ryegrass for silage.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #659
    endainoz
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Dinzee Conlee wrote: »
    Tell me, what do organic farmers do instead of artificial fertiliser?
    Is there an organic alternative?

    I am not organic, but at the same time, I would be interested in moving away from chemical fertiliser if I knew what alternatives were there...

    There's no way around saying it but you'll struggle to get two cuts of silage on an organic meadow. Slurry is grand to use, as is FYM but your fields would want to be well managed to get it. Add to that, meadows that would be used to getting chemical fert would go into a "shocked" phase of withdrawal when they don't have a deep root system to get all the minerals from the ground. This can be fixed with adding clover into the mix and possibly planting multi species swards instead of just ryegrass.

    It does look like drought resistance might be a factor in the future as we've had two fairly long droughts in the last few years and multi species swards could be used to combat this.

    I've had two silage seasons in organics and have had mixed results. The summer of 2019 went fine, crop was quite good and it was a good growthy summer. Last summer didn't go as well and crops were quite light. For the season coming it won't be touched until July, and hopefully the broadcasted clover will make a positive impact on the growth.


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    #660
    Dinzee Conlee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    blue5000 wrote: »
    Red clover and italian ryegrass for silage.

    Don’t make silage Blue...

    I suppose I am more looking to see what can be done to improve existing grassland...
    I don’t have dung or slurry either really, so looking to see what I can do to improve things...


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    #661
    endainoz
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Dinzee Conlee wrote: »
    Don’t make silage Blue...

    I suppose I am more looking to see what can be done to improve existing grassland...
    I don’t have dung or slurry either really, so looking to see what I can do to improve things...

    I think clover into the sward would be a fairly cheap and simple method to get nitrogen fixed into your soil. Teagasc have a great piece written on it. Link for pdf download below

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.teagasc.ie/media/website/publications/2017/8-Introducing-white-clover-into-existing-swards-and-getting-variety-choice-right.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiTnpaRoqTwAhUHTRUIHWEUAGsQFjACegQIFxAC&usg=AOvVaw0l82Xe4ACzh7nRlSt1rdgX&cshid=1619727268193


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