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The Academies

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    I wouldn't get overly excited about Harrison Brewer just yet. He is an absolute monster for his age grade, but these things tend to even out. A lot of his game is based around his power. That's not to say he can't still end up being the most amazing player in the history of rugby, but it's difficult to predict senior success from age grade success, Leinster fans should be acutely aware of this given the difficulty many Irish age grade stars have had stepping it up to senior level at the province.

    I used to play with a guy who at Junior Cup level was by far the best wing in Leinster schools, he was a little tank and was the quickest player I'd ever seen. He used to score at least 1 try in every game and more often than not would score more. Our whole game plan at that level revolved around getting him on the ball and in space. By senior cup level he didn't even make the match day squad. Fast developers can be caught up with quickly.

    I will say one thing about Brewer though, he's a mean looking fecker! How many schools players have you seen with a feckin Maori tattoo on their arm? I'd sh*t a brick if I was 17 again and playing against him!

    What you say is absolutely correct about not getting excited about him yet. Anything can happen. He was an absolute star at junior level where he was playing flanker/no 8. But I believe he himself instigated the move to centre and he didn't want direct comparisons with his father. Personally I believe he has the potential to play at a higher level but some people on here don't rate him at all and it's probably fair to say he hasn't set the world alight in the cup so far this season. Right now-I think he is probably playing for an academy contract and apposed to being a shoe-in like Dardis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Anybody know of the good prospects from the youths - any Sean O'Briens, Shaggys or Trevor Brennans coming up?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭ssaye


    Anybody know of the good prospects from the youths - any Sean O'Briens, Shaggys or Trevor Brennans coming up?

    Conan as a Number 8


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    ssaye wrote: »
    Conan as a Number 8

    Conan was in Gerrards and not in the Youths system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭ssaye


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Conan was in Gerrards and not in the Youths system.

    Read this thread as Leinster Academy
    Cheers


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    Anybody know of the good prospects from the youths - any Sean O'Briens, Shaggys or Trevor Brennans coming up?
    With a lot of work some of this years irish youths could do well. wont say anything about future Sean O Briens, Shaggys, Donnacha Ryans etc but these should do well.
    backrow Idris Rqibi, centre Sean Moran,
    then there is munster sub academy players James McInerney(centre), 2nd row John Madigan who could def get academy places next season


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    ormond lad wrote: »
    With a lot of work some of this years irish youths could do well. wont say anything about future Sean O Briens, Shaggys, Donnacha Ryans etc but these should do well.
    backrow Idris Rqibi, centre Sean Moran,
    then there is munster sub academy players James McInerney(centre), 2nd row John Madigan who could def get academy places next season

    In Munster the good youths lads seem to end up going to Rugby schools. Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy and Donnacha O'Callaghan are three players who played youths and then went to Rugby schools. The Rugby Schools prowl the youths system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    In Munster the good youths lads seem to end up going to Rugby schools. Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy and Donnacha O'Callaghan are three players who played youths and then went to Rugby schools.
    Not always and is happening less often now as youths system is much stronger nowadays with the pan munster competition at under 17 and under 19 levels giving clubs more games against teams of a higher standard from across the province.
    Each of those players are out of school 10 years or so and youths rugby wasnt anywhere near as strong then. Donnacha O Callaghan went to pres from 1st year. did he not? Maybe it was 2nd year
    Same as Leamy. Went to Rockwell before junior cup. would only have played 2 years or so of youths rugby after minis
    Jack O Donoghue, first year academy, is just one of the many players whove made it into academies onto a contract from the youths system without going to a school for a year to get noticed etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    ormond lad wrote: »
    Not always and is happening less often now as youths system is much stronger nowadays with the pan munster competition at under 17 and under 19 levels giving clubs more games against teams of a higher standard from across the province.
    Each of those players are out of school 10 years or so and youths rugby wasnt anywhere near as strong then. Donnacha O Callaghan went to pres from 1st year. did he not? Maybe it was 2nd year
    I think it was after junior cert. I read his book and that's what I think he said. He got a scholarship.

    Who was the last Munster player to not touch a Rugby school?

    John Hayse?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    I think it was after junior cert. I read his book and that's what I think he said. He got a scholarship.

    Who was the last Munster player to not touch a Rugby school?

    John Hayes?
    Loads more at lower levels to likes of Donnacha O Callaghan etc. Luke o Dea, Tommy O Donnell,
    Many very talented youths have went and repeated the leaving in a senior cup school, went to a school for senior cycle as they can get noticed easier and play a decent enough level of rugby.
    Now kids dont have to as much as the pan munster competitions have helped improve playing standards in youths competitions.
    There is more work being put into youths across the province and the gap between youths and schools is much smaller than it was


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    ormond lad wrote: »
    Loads more at lower levels to likes of Donnacha O Callaghan etc. Luke o Dea, Tommy O Donnell,
    Most very talented youths have went and repeated leaving in a senior cup school, went to a school for senior cycle as they can get noticed easier and play a decent enough level of rugby.
    Now kids dont have to as much as the pan munster competitions have helped improve playing standards in youths competitions.
    There is more work being put into youths across the province and the gap between youths and schools is much smaller than it was

    That's good to hear. I think it's something the IRFU just need to keep plugging. It is the only way to grow the game. Teachers in non-rugby schools have very little interest in developing the sport there (usually) and parents can't just take the time off work to help out. But if the clubs system grows it means that parents can help out at weekends and one or two nights during the week for training.


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭backgreen


    ormond lad wrote: »
    With a lot of work some of this years irish youths could do well. wont say anything about future Sean O Briens, Shaggys, Donnacha Ryans etc but these should do well.
    backrow Idris Rqibi, centre Sean Moran,
    then there is munster sub academy players James McInerney(centre), 2nd row John Madigan who could def get academy places next season
    dont rate mcInerney a JCB would turn better..madigan ok


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    backgreen wrote: »
    dont rate mcInerney a JCB would turn better..madigan ok
    Not sure about McInerney but he seems to be rated and could get an academy place. He seems to do ok in AIL with Garryowen
    Madigan i think def could get a place. Done well with Dolphin in AIL all season and did well enough last summer to make Munster 20s and has another year at 20s


  • Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭CGD


    Tom Daly & Peter Dooley in Irish 20's are both prospects for academy from youths


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭shaungil


    It's been mentioned before that in Leinster the province is not getting access to schools players whereas clubs are delighted to get kids into development squads shane Horgan Cup etc. The role of the development squads are to get players to play for Leinster at some stage but the schools goals are success in school competitions.
    This in practice could be seen to get kids developing physically earlier in schools maybe more resistance training when perhaps they are told to do this type of training when they are mature enough physically to do so. I spoke to a provincial staff member who was working with a schools hooker and due to unbalanced overdeveloped muscles meant the hooker was unable to put his hands far enough behind his head to throw the ball in the lineout correctly.
    Another staff member predict that in a few years the youths structure will be providing kids to the academies than the schools. a bold prediction


  • Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭Stanza2


    ormond lad wrote: »
    With a lot of work some of this years irish youths could do well. wont say anything about future Sean O Briens, Shaggys, Donnacha Ryans etc but these should do well.
    backrow Idris Rqibi, centre Sean Moran,
    then there is munster sub academy players James McInerney(centre), 2nd row John Madigan who could def get academy places next season

    You only think that two players, Moran and Rqibi could go on to academy contracts from this years youths? Seems like a very small return from this years squad? I think that you might find that a few others will do well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    Stanza2 wrote: »
    You only think that two players, Moran and Rqibi could go on to academy contracts from this years youths? Seems like a very small return from this years squad? I think that you might find that a few others will do well.
    That would a big return if you look at previous years.
    We are only assuming that they may make the academy but their has not yet been a large proportion of any of the academys from the youths set up.
    Others will do well no doubt and most of the youths this season will be playing 19s and maybe 20s next season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    I think the next player from a youths background to breakthrough could be Tadgh Furlong - from either Leinster or Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭andyman


    Stanza2 wrote: »
    You only think that two players, Moran and Rqibi could go on to academy contracts from this years youths? Seems like a very small return from this years squad? I think that you might find that a few others will do well.

    Sean Moran definitely could. Irish Youth last season, still under-age this year and will still be in school next year. Will be interesting to see how he gets on with the Schools lads at U-19s next year.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    At Leinster, Furlong(tighthead) or Byrne(outside back) are the most likely to be he next youths to come through.

    Both are a year or two away from making a big impact though, Furlong is being handled and not rushed because his long term potential is fantastic, Byrne was on the fast track until he broke his ankle in january.
    Byrne's long term position is an interesting question: he has played 13,14 and 15.

    Two guys who looks like he will be in the academy next season is Tom Daly who is a centre and Peter Dooley who is a loosehead both are starting in the under 20s this year.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Adam Byrne played rugby for Naas CBS. But I guess most of his Rugby was with Naas youths. That's great to see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    AFAIK he only started playing Rugby 4 years ago, or something like that? And only started because he moved to Naas. I stand to be corrected on that tho.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    .ak wrote: »
    AFAIK he only started playing Rugby 4 years ago, or something like that? And only started because he moved to Naas. I stand to be corrected on that tho.

    Unbelievable if true. Holy f*ck. Anyway, the structures are getting better in Leinster but still need a few more nudges to bring it to the next level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭Jedwardian


    shaungil wrote: »
    Another staff member predict that in a few years the youths structure will be providing kids to the academies than the schools. a bold prediction
    I don't think it's that outlandish a statement. The old cliché is that Leinster is a D4 team made up entirely of players who came through the private school system. That's rapidly being broken down.

    For example in today's Ireland under 20s team, there are two starting Leinster players who came through the youths system [Peter Dooley - Birr, Tom Daly - Carlow] compared with just one more from schools rugby [Gavin Thornbury - Blackrock, Peadar Timmons - Clongowes, Luke McGrath - St Michaels]. Add to that Adam Byrne [Naas] who probably would have started and Eoghan Masterson [Portlaoise] who's in the extended squad and you can see a big youths element emerging. Two former youths players [Stephen Keelan and Fergal Cleary - Navan] are both now playing for Clongowes.

    It's very pleasing to see so many players from non-traditional avenues emerge. There's massive potential for growth outside greater Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Belfast.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Jedwardian wrote: »
    It's very pleasing to see so many players from non-traditional avenues emerge. There's massive potential for growth outside greater Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Belfast.
    It is very pleasing to hear such informed voices of grass roots rugby. Reason why I consult this forum rather than mainstream media.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Unbelievable if true. Holy f*ck. Anyway, the structures are getting better in Leinster but still need a few more nudges to bring it to the next level.

    Actually only started when he was 16. :eek:

    Good article on him here.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭opinionatedfan


    Adam Byrne is just a natural athlete, great win for leinster rugby that he fell into it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,949 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    .ak wrote: »
    Actually only started when he was 16. :eek:

    Good article on him here.

    We need to get 3 -5 Leinster players from the youths. In my opinion that is just as important as wining Heineken Cup.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    shaungil wrote: »
    It's been mentioned before that in Leinster the province is not getting access to schools players whereas clubs are delighted to get kids into development squads shane Horgan Cup etc. The role of the development squads are to get players to play for Leinster at some stage but the schools goals are success in school competitions.
    This in practice could be seen to get kids developing physically earlier in schools maybe more resistance training when perhaps they are told to do this type of training when they are mature enough physically to do so. I spoke to a provincial staff member who was working with a schools hooker and due to unbalanced overdeveloped muscles meant the hooker was unable to put his hands far enough behind his head to throw the ball in the lineout correctly.
    Another staff member predict that in a few years the youths structure will be providing kids to the academies than the schools. a bold prediction
    The schools want to win junior and senior cups. If some of the players win cups and give up the sport a year or two later they cant go back and play for their school. Schools need to link up with clubs to keep as many kids as possible in the sport.
    Clubs are delighted as players get more training and training from better coaches and from my outsider view some schools seem to think if players are involved at a provincial level that the winning of a snr cup will be affected.
    In my opinion within a few years the youths structure will be on an equal footing with the schools in relation to providing players to the academies thanks to the huge resources being put into developing youths rugby by the provincial branches and the IRFU
    Jedwardian wrote: »
    I don't think it's that outlandish a statement. The old cliché is that Leinster is a D4 team made up entirely of players who came through the private school system. That's rapidly being broken down.

    For example in today's Ireland under 20s team, there are two starting Leinster players who came through the youths system [Peter Dooley - Birr, Tom Daly - Carlow] compared with just one more from schools rugby [Gavin Thornbury - Blackrock, Peadar Timmons - Clongowes, Luke McGrath - St Michaels]. Add to that Adam Byrne [Naas] who probably would have started and Eoghan Masterson [Portlaoise] who's in the extended squad and you can see a big youths element emerging. Two former youths players [Stephen Keelan and Fergal Cleary - Navan] are both now playing for Clongowes.

    It's very pleasing to see so many players from non-traditional avenues emerge. There's massive potential for growth outside greater Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Belfast.
    There is huge growth. Just look at the numbers from Tipperary for example who are on professional contracts: Donnacha Ryan, Dave Foley, Tommy O Donnell, JP Cooney, Paddy Butler,
    Then there's Kevin Griffin from Kilfeacle who is playing AIL with Shannon but had been over in England playing with Bath for a short period this season and there is more
    We need to get 3 -5 Leinster players from the youths. In my opinion that is just as important as wining Heineken Cup.
    The great work the Leinster development and academy staff are doing means this will happen very soon and i would agree with you that in many ways that would be just as important as winning a Heineken Cup.
    Look at Adam Byrne went from playing Leinster 19s in september to playing pro 12 within a few months. He can be a shining light that youths rugby is equal to schools in many ways


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭RobbieRuns


    Some very interesting information there in these last few posts. A lot of the talk of players involved seem to be discussing Leinster only. The Academies are in four provinces and I think that the return from the youths as a whole will be very good. Certainly more than 2 this year into the four provincial academies. It also depends whether you include sub-adcademies as well I suppose. From a Connacht perspective I see Kevin Hastings as a great prospect and Conor Kyne and Jack Codyre as potential Academy recruits next year. The other fella that was an amazing player with our U18's last year was the young Exile Sean O'Hagan, he was cutting through players for fun when I saw him turn out for us last year. Best display I had seen for years. People in the Connacht set up have said that he is one of the best prospects around. I would have thought that it was not a case of if he gets offered something but more which academy he turns up in ! Did he not start every game for last years youths with Adam Byrne in the centre (at 16) and still only 17? I would say that every province (bar Leinster maybe with young Brewer) would be looking at that young fella. I hope that he goes to Connacht.

    The Exiles have recently provided us with Alex O'Meara, David Panter and indeed Kieran Marmion who is still a last year academy student and training with the full Irish squad. Ulster and Munster have had players into their academies as well. Even the Leinster got young Ruddock through the Exiles. I think they provided 5 players to the U20 squad for the Welsh game. They come through the Youth system do they not? I would say that the youth set up will produce some great players for all the provincial Academies. If you are talking Leinster only it might only be two as the schools are dominant and indeed the other provinces will look at taking some rejected Leinster players from the schools and clubs. However I would hazard a guess that in all the academies you might find some good young Exiles come through as well (particularly in Connacht and Ulster)


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