Is there new legislation coming next week from Murphy?

LotharIngum · 18-09-2018 8:54am #1

I heard on the radio this morning that there is new legislation coming from Minister Murphy next week.

What will it be?

Is he interfering more in the rental market, even though every single piece of previous interference has failed miserably and only made the situation worse, despite the dogs on the street knowing that property market interference has never ever in history not made things worse.

Will he offer tax incentives to landlords?
I doubt they will be worth enough to make people reconsider letting if he does. It would want to be HUGE.

Will he ban Airbnb?
What a tool if he does. More interference.

Will he allow landlords who are stuck on below market rates to bring their property rents up to market rates?
If he does this it would definietly be s step in the right direction. Those landlords who got caught out are the first out the door.

Will he allow evictions for people who dont pay their rent in full every month. Im talking about fast, 30 day evictions without having to go to the RTB and court. These people are taking up properties, costing landlords money, blocking them for good tenants, and making landlords leave the market.

Browney7 · 18-09-2018 9:15am

Ah yes, the taxation chestnut springs up yet again on the forum.

Income taxes are high in Ireland for most middle to higher earning people, not just Landlords. Why should landlords get preferential rates of tax on rental income?

Making property tax an allowable expense and a modest flat rate allowance for travel costs to carry out inspections are the two (small) taxation areas that may have merit.

Air BnB (and other short term booking sites), no problem with LLs making hay here once they get planning permission for change of use.

Tipsy McSwagger · 18-09-2018 9:22am

Get rid of stamp duty

Samuel T. Cogley · 18-09-2018 9:31am

Browney7 wrote: »

Ah yes, the taxation chestnut springs up yet again on the forum.

Income taxes are high in Ireland for most middle to higher earning people, not just Landlords. Why should landlords get preferential rates of tax on rental income?

Making property tax an allowable expense and a modest flat rate allowance for travel costs to carry out inspections are the two (small) taxation areas that may have merit.

Air BnB (and other short term booking sites), no problem with LLs making hay here once they get planning permission for change of use.

Because we can fart out new middle skilled IT bods and middle managers until the cows come home with very little risk of them being expected to work for two years unpaid, but we've a major crisis when it comes to rental supply. Rental supply isn't going to come on stream without Landlords.

SteM · 18-09-2018 9:39am

I agree, they shouldn't get preferential treatment re income tax imo.

Why should the government put a cap on how much how much a landlord can increase their rent by though? Do they tell Tescos how much their groceries can be increased by or tell petrol stations how much they can increase petrol by? The government don't tell stock market investors how much profit they can make on shares that they've invested in - they tax them on the earnings - but they limit how much landlords can make in their investment.

I understand that RPZs are there but most landlords within these RPZs bought their property before they were introduced. And this mess has partially come about because councils sold off their property stock to sitting tenants for a relative pittance back in the day and new affordable housing didn't replace it.

Browney7 · 18-09-2018 9:57am

Agreed government inaction and disastrous housing policy has been the main driver of the current mess bit that in itself has been a major boon for rents has it not? If the government had been able to bring 50000 units on stream (actually built them) over the last 10 to 15 years, would one bed apartment rents be over 1500 a month in Dublin city centre for example?

Landlords are of course part of the solution but the delivery of housing stock has to be ramped up and ramped up quickly and the private sector has not delivered that over the past number of years.

GGTrek · 18-09-2018 10:27am

LotharIngum wrote: »

I heard on the radio this morning that there is new legislation coming from Minister Murphy next week.

What will it be?

Is he interfering more in the rental market, even though every single piece of previous interference has failed miserably and only made the situation worse, despite the dogs on the street knowing that property market interference has never ever in history not made things worse.

Will he offer tax incentives to landlords?
I doubt they will be worth enough to make people reconsider letting if he does. It would want to be HUGE.

Will he ban Airbnb?
What a tool if he does. More interference.

Will he allow landlords who are stuck on below market rates to bring their property rents up to market rates?
If he does this it would definietly be s step in the right direction. Those landlords who got caught out are the first out the door.

Will he allow evictions for people who dont pay their rent in full every month. Im talking about fast, 30 day evictions without having to go to the RTB and court. These people are taking up properties, costing landlords money, blocking them for good tenants, and making landlords leave the market.

Almost none of what you are thinking about. Just more meddling from govvie to appease tenants'"charities" (:D let's call them this way) and sold out media, it was discussed at length in this forum in May-July:
https://ipoa.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2018-07-16_report-on-the-general-scheme-of-the-residential-tenancies-amendment-bill-2018_en.pdf
Please read it in full and you will see that absolutely nothing positive is present for landlord (as has been usual in any govvie initiative of the past 10 years).

nim1bdeh38l2cw · 18-09-2018 12:15pm

Larry Murphy?

Del2005 · 18-09-2018 12:24pm

Browney7 wrote: »

Ah yes, the taxation chestnut springs up yet again on the forum.

Income taxes are high in Ireland for most middle to higher earning people, not just Landlords. Why should landlords get preferential rates of tax on rental income?

Making property tax an allowable expense and a modest flat rate allowance for travel costs to carry out inspections are the two (small) taxation areas that may have merit.

Air BnB (and other short term booking sites), no problem with LLs making hay here once they get planning permission for change of use.

The difference is that there are 2 tiers of landlords. The ordinary private landlord paying tax at 50% and the REITs paying none. Its the REITs increasing the rents as they are either new or heavily renovated, the ordinary landlord can't increase their rent. So either treat all landlords as a business or don't.

Don't forget it's the REITs that do annual increases regardless of how good a tenant is and when the private landlords are eventually driven out then we'll see what big business does to our rental market.

Selik · 18-09-2018 2:46pm

Talk of rents being frozen for 2-3 years across the board now. I imagine another exodus of landlords selling up is already underway....

ted1 · 18-09-2018 4:09pm

Browney7 wrote: »

Ah yes, the taxation chestnut springs up yet again on the forum.

Income taxes are high in Ireland for most middle to higher earning people, not just Landlords. Why should landlords get preferential rates of tax on rental income?

Making property tax an allowable expense and a modest flat rate allowance for travel costs to carry out inspections are the two (small) taxation areas that may have merit.

Air BnB (and other short term booking sites), no problem with LLs making hay here once they get planning permission for change of use.

Because if the government are treating it as a business the landlord should be taxed as one and not as PAYE income with USC, PRSI etc

DubCount · 18-09-2018 4:14pm

LotharIngum wrote: »

I heard on the radio this morning that there is new legislation coming from Minister Murphy next week.

What will it be?

Is he interfering more in the rental market, even though every single piece of previous interference has failed miserably and only made the situation worse, despite the dogs on the street knowing that property market interference has never ever in history not made things worse.

Will he offer tax incentives to landlords?
I doubt they will be worth enough to make people reconsider letting if he does. It would want to be HUGE.

Will he ban Airbnb?
What a tool if he does. More interference.

Will he allow landlords who are stuck on below market rates to bring their property rents up to market rates?
If he does this it would definietly be s step in the right direction. Those landlords who got caught out are the first out the door.

Will he allow evictions for people who dont pay their rent in full every month. Im talking about fast, 30 day evictions without having to go to the RTB and court. These people are taking up properties, costing landlords money, blocking them for good tenants, and making landlords leave the market.

If more legislation is coming, my guess is that will be against short term letting (airBnB).

Although there may be some tinkering on Tax in the budget, it will be marginal and wont change the sell v keep going equation.

Dont expect any pro-landlord legislation. Expedited evictions for non-paying tenants etc. may be what the rental market needs, but it would be against the prevailing wind of left wing media comment, tenant interest groups, Sinn Fein and populist independents. All in all, our Government is too weak to bring in such measures, even it was brave enough to want to.

Lux23 · 18-09-2018 4:27pm

Selik wrote: »

Talk of rents being frozen for 2-3 years across the board now. I imagine another exodus of landlords selling up is already underway....

And will these houses just disappear into thin air?

spaceHopper · 18-09-2018 4:34pm

Lux23 wrote: »

And will these houses just disappear into thin air?

No, if they are bought by a property syndicate they will look for vacant possession an do a renovation so that it's up to standard but will be priced at today's rent. Or it will be bought by owner occupiers and will be off the market. Either way whoever is renting it at the time of sale will have to move.

The Student · 18-09-2018 4:36pm

Lux23 wrote: »

And will these houses just disappear into thin air?

No but the number of bed spaces for rent will.

ted1 · 18-09-2018 4:37pm

Lux23 wrote: »

And will these houses just disappear into thin air?

Property tax will increase , aswell maintenance costs etc. Expect the quality of places to go down

Browney7 · 18-09-2018 5:23pm

ted1 wrote: »

Because if the government are treating it as a business the landlord should be taxed as one and not as PAYE income with USC, PRSI etc

But is it not treated like a business and it's the ultimate beneficial owner of the business who pays tax on the distributed proceeds? (Rent less allowable expenses = profit)

handlemaster · 18-09-2018 6:19pm

More anti landlord action no doubt. If they at least allowed landlords to evict non paying tenants. .. this would help as now landlords have had enough of this high risk investment

Edgware · 18-09-2018 6:38pm

Hammer the Airbnb and just watch those hotel room prices rocket. Then it will be time for the tourist industry to crib.
Murphy and Harris are completely out of their depth

PeadarCo · 18-09-2018 8:28pm

Edgware wrote:

Hammer the Airbnb and just watch those hotel room prices rocket. Then it will be time for the tourist industry to crib. Murphy and Harris are completely out of their depth

To be fair to them they are under huge pressure to sort out the housing crisis as soon as possible and they have to be seen to be doing something. Look at the housing protests recently. All that means they go for solutions that are visible and make good news paper headlines. The idea of why people are going towards Airbnb which is a lot more work than letting for an extended period of time isn't looked at. The main reason going Airbnb you risk far less money than going for a long term tenancy. Hitting Airbnb is sounds good but will do very little to sort out the core problem. You can rinse and repeat with rent freezes etc. Speaking as a tenant this does nothing to encourage you to rent long term as there's always the chance a landlord might get fed up or it could make better business sense to sell instead of rent.

handlemaster · 18-09-2018 8:51pm

PeadarCo wrote: »

To be fair to them they are under huge pressure to sort out the housing crisis as soon as possible and they have to be seen to be doing something. Look at the housing protests recently. All that means they go for solutions that are visible and make good news paper headlines. The idea of why people are going towards Airbnb which is a lot more work than letting for an extended period of time isn't looked at. The main reason going Airbnb you risk far less money than going for a long term tenancy. Hitting Airbnb is sounds good but will do very little to sort out the core problem. You can rinse and repeat with rent freezes etc. Speaking as a tenant this does nothing to encourage you to rent long term as there's always the chance a landlord might get fed up or it could make better business sense to sell instead of rent.

seen to be doing somthing has been to go to policy up until now

Scienceless · 18-09-2018 9:25pm

handlemaster wrote: »

seen to be doing somthing has been to go to policy up until now

True, but it’s gone too far at this stage, in one direction.

If changes aren’t made to bring balance and fairness back to the rental market, then decent small time landlords, of which there are many, will continue to sell up and get out. Who’d blame them.

I’ve seen plenty of it in my area, many previously rented houses sold on to owner occupiers, empty or occupied by landlords adult child(ren).

Last chance saloon I’d say for Gov to do this or it will get an awful lot worse.

the_syco · 19-09-2018 7:33am

Browney7 wrote: »

If the government had been able to bring 50000 units on stream (actually built them) over the last 10 to 15 years

The government would probably have sold them off to the tenants by now at a low price, like they did last time they had everyone housed.

Lux23 wrote: »

And will these houses just disappear into thin air?

No. But they won't be rented; would doubt many landlords of long term rentals (as opposed to the likes of short term rentals like AirBnB) would be going into the market by choice for the next while.

PeadarCo wrote: »

Look at the housing protests recently.

The eviction protests? More reasons why not to be a landlord. Want to buy property to turn into apartments? Look at how the protesters invade such buildings to delay your conversion.

GGTrek wrote: »

Almost none of what you are thinking about. Just more meddling from govvie to appease tenants'"charities" (:D let's call them this way) and sold out media, it was discussed at length in this forum in May-July:
https://ipoa.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/2018-07-16_report-on-the-general-scheme-of-the-residential-tenancies-amendment-bill-2018_en.pdf
Please read it in full and you will see that absolutely nothing positive is present for landlord (as has been usual in any govvie initiative of the past 10 years).

Hrm. I found one idea in that which may keep landlords from the lower end of the market from leaving.

KEY ISSUE 6: REALIGNMENT OF RENT PRESSURE ZONE RENTS

This could keep a load of landlords form leaving, as it would allow landlords that were charging below market rent before implementation of RPZs to up it to market rent levels.

GGTrek · 19-09-2018 7:54am

the_syco wrote: »

Hrm. I found one idea in that which may keep landlords from the lower end of the market from leaving.

KEY ISSUE 6: REALIGNMENT OF RENT PRESSURE ZONE RENTS

This could keep a load of landlords form leaving, as it would allow landlords that were charging below market rent before implementation of RPZs to up it to market rent levels.

Do you honestly believe that in the current climate of leftie parties and sold out media asking for total rent freezes this proposal (that came from the IPOA actually, it was not in the govvie agenda) will pass?

Scienceless · 19-09-2018 1:22pm

GGTrek wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that in the current climate of leftie parties and sold out media asking for total rent freezes this proposal (that came from the IPOA actually, it was not in the govvie agenda) will pass?

Do they want to keep compliant small time landlords in the market or not?
It’s very simple at the end of the day.

GGTrek · 19-09-2018 3:43pm

Scienceless wrote: »

GGTrek wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that in the current climate of leftie parties and sold out media asking for total rent freezes this proposal (that came from the IPOA actually, it was not in the govvie agenda) will pass?

Do they want to keep compliant small time landlords in the market or not?
It’s very simple at the end of the day.

Look I am not in the business of wishful thinking. I have serious money at stake and I am planning what to do if another bad scenario like Dec 16 happens. Great if they allow realignment of rents but very unlikely in my informed opinion based on the 10yrs track record of the Irish govvie. Depending on the outcome of this legislation I am preparing all the people and resources necessary in order to sell 10 small properties starting spring 2019.

Scienceless · 19-09-2018 4:43pm

GGTrek wrote: »

Look I am not in the business of wishful thinking. I have serious money at stake and I am planning what to do if another bad scenario like Dec 16 happens. Great if they allow realignment of rents but very unlikely in my informed opinion based on the 10yrs track record of the Irish govvie. Depending on the outcome of this legislation I am preparing all the people and resources necessary in order to sell 10 small properties starting spring 2019.

You are certainly right about one thing, it is definitely decision time for many landlords, and I agree many will sell up if the pending legislation goes against compliant small time landlords (again).

handlemaster · 19-09-2018 5:12pm

It will be a click bait action on behalf of the government, anything that would be seen to be fair to landlords would not fly

The Student · 19-09-2018 5:23pm

Scienceless wrote: »

You are certainly right about one thing, it is definitely decision time for many landlords, and I agree many will sell up if the pending legislation goes against compliant small time landlords (again).

I am in the the position. If its anti landlord I will be selling up.

ted1 · 19-09-2018 8:29pm

Browney7 wrote: »

But is it not treated like a business and it's the ultimate beneficial owner of the business who pays tax on the distributed proceeds? (Rent less allowable expenses = profit)

USC is on all income. So it’s not just on profit.

tvjunki · 03-10-2018 1:44pm

The Student wrote: »

I am in the the position. If its anti landlord I will be selling up.

Debate in the dail and legislation today stopping landlords giving tenants notice that they need vacant possession to selling houses. If tenants have a risk of homelessness landlords will have to sell with tenant in place.

So this is sitting tenant will devalue your home by a min 50k of the value of your house! Landlords will not be able to get a mortgage with a sitting tenant.

Last straw. I am giving notice to tenants today.
Note...
If you do give notice make sure you take the forms from rtb as they have added a few additional paragraphs on the notice to quit forms.

Is there new legislation coming next week from Murphy?

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