The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

johnny_ultimate · 23-06-2020 7:16pm

BruteStock wrote: »

Its logical he would have had another recourse , rather than the one that led him to meet his maker.

Even more logical: to happily accept an offer of safety and refuge nearby when you're being swarmed and overcome by an army of monsters

The urgency and instinctual split-second decision that had to be made in order to come out of an immediately dangerous situation alive makes perfect sense to me. Never for a second while playing the game did I doubt that it's precisely what almost anybody would do in the same situation. There was no time or indeed opportunity for considered decision-making.

Grumpypants · 23-06-2020 8:00pm

You also have to consider that it is set after years of relative peace too. Look at their house, the town. It is a small farming community. Yeah they ride out and keep watch but the waring factions are not an immediate threat.

They often have small groups stop, stock up and move on.

I don't have any real issue with it. Yeah I would have liked Joel as a character for longer. But I still really enjoyed it regardless.

If it was just Joel and Ellie on another 30 hour bin moving adventure everyone would have been moaning that it was just a re skinned DLC.

BeerWolf · 23-06-2020 8:15pm

Are people bombing this game only because Joel dies? I thought it was pretty good.

Abby was pretty justified in seeking revenge against just Joel, after he killed her father and a whole bunch of Fireflies... probably relatives of her friends as well. Meanwhile Ellie was so blinded by revenge she killed all of Abby's friends and pooch Alice, worst still knowing why Abby did it!, still went after Abby twice despite being spared twice along with Tommy...

Ellie really annoyed me, yet for some reason people defend her and want Abby dead regardless of Abby's completely justified actions. Annoys me more so how she never puts pristine guitars back into their cases left out to rot! :mad:

Blind Fanboyism sucks.

SMC92Ian · 23-06-2020 9:00pm

Ellie didn't know did she? Also I was pissed we never got a straight up line of Joel saying why he done it, say he loves her or something.

J Mysterio · 23-06-2020 9:40pm

bloodless_coup wrote: »

Too much transgender

Gtfo

Sandor Clegane · 23-06-2020 10:08pm

Just finished it today.

It'll take me a while to digest but first impressions are it was a bit of a mess, tbh id of been happier with a straight up revenge story of Ellie mascaraing her way through the Wolves to then brutally kill Abby, end of.

I felt playing as the two over complicated the whole thing.

It felt like a grind to get through, it had a lot of fluff that didn't need to be there, it was very drawn out and I was glad to be finished it.

Yeah, disappointed tbh.

johnny_ultimate · 23-06-2020 10:13pm

Mod note: To be 100% clear (the posts in question have been deleted), we will not tolerate any bigotry - trolling or otherwise - in this forum.

BruteStock · 23-06-2020 10:46pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Even more logical: to happily accept an offer of safety and refuge nearby when you're being swarmed and overcome by an army of monsters

The urgency and instinctual split-second decision that had to be made in order to come out of an immediately dangerous situation alive makes perfect sense to me. Never for a second while playing the game did I doubt that it's precisely what almost anybody would do in the same situation. There was no time or indeed opportunity for considered decision-making.

Thats if Joel thought the newly occupied mansion was his best and only bet for safety and refuge. He could have went to any of the nearby lookout posts , or better yet , ride on to a safe locale where he can gather his thoughts and establish who Abby is and why the was sneaking around the settlement.

But riding to the mansion isn't explicitly out of character as walking lackadaisical into a house of heavily armed strangers and not thinking to himself that they might be hostile.

Its also not just about Joel , he's entrusted with the safety of the camp , there's other involved , particularly the safety of Ellie s , so Joel either cocking his gun or telling Tommy to be on guard is the survivalist behavior you would naturally expect from him.

Ftr , Joel punching his ticket was no shock to me , i knew it was going to happen years ago.
A well written send-off that didn't rely on plot contrivances would have been acceptable , but ending Joel in an unsatisfying and non-believable manner could have been Neil's intention

Penn · 23-06-2020 11:19pm

Over the halfway point, so will spoiler tag for this.

Don't mind playing as Abby, that's fine. But I hate when games do this and knock your skills back. I've lost most of the useful skills I put points into for Ellie like listening distance. Have to worry about carrying shivs now too.

In terms of story, I get you're supposed to feel horrified at killing the pregnant woman as Ellie. I felt more horrified at making her climb ropes and jump off ledges as Abby.

SMC92Ian · 24-06-2020 1:24am

Penn wrote: »

Over the halfway point, so will spoiler tag for this.
Don't mind playing as Abby, that's fine. But I hate when games do this and knock your skills back. I've lost most of the useful skills I put points into for Ellie like listening distance. Have to worry about carrying shivs now too.

In terms of story, I get you're supposed to feel horrified at killing the pregnant woman as Ellie. I felt more horrified at making her climb ropes and jump off ledges as Abby.

It's mental how she was just let out into the field lol

Kirby · 24-06-2020 4:41am

SMC92Ian wrote: »

It's mental how she was just let out into the field lol

Yeah that bothered me too. I get that they were trying to make a point that pregnant women shouldn't be coddled and wrapped in bubble wrap but they went too far there to try and make the point. It defied belief.

Dina was early along but Mel was huge. Nobody responsible would allow somebody that pregnant out of the stadium in a world where both infected and religous zealouts want to kill you. And what responsible mother would risk it? It's nuts.

It's at that point that "Women Power! Rawr!" removes some of the reality of the game.

As for Joel, I figured he was brown bread years ago at the e3 reveal. He entered the house with golden light behind him. Twas obvious. And I have no issue with how it was done. He let his guard down and paid the price for it. And lets be under no illusions here, what Joel did to the Fireflies at the hospital was horrific. Tess said it best in the first game, "We're sh*tty people Joel!". Joel did some bad sh*t and it caught up with him. The bill comes due.

Midgame spoilers from here.

I do think Neil greatly misjudged his audience though. Some of this seems very tone deaf. The idea of playing as Abby ACTIVELY trying to kill Ellie was stupid. In my fight with Ellie she blew my head off and I got a "Game Over" screen and said aloud "Okay, I'm fine with it. Good job Ellie!" Ofcourse it reloaded from the checkpoint and had me try again. I'd come to understand Abby at that point and sympathize with her so good job......but to have the player try and kill Ellie was a mistep.

You've made your point. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. Revenge has far reaching consequences. There are two sides to every conflict. It's easy to see My Tribe versus Your Tribe and get caught up in that. But having the player try to kill Ellie was only going to piss people off. That part should have stayed a cutscene. Or perhaps have Abby get a few licks in and then switch the players perspective to Ellie for the rest of the fight.

Overall I really enjoyed the game. I love the stealth aspect and using all the tools you have at your disposal. Gameplay wise its a big improvement on the first game. Being able to prone through grass, leave bombs around, replacing shiv doors with puzzle doors, new infected types and making stalkers invisible to listen mode, adding dogs to track you, etc. All good additions. Some people don't enjoy the gameplay but I love it.

As for the story, I enjoyed that too. But as much as the original? I adored the story in the first one. It's one of my favourite games ever. Maybe I need more time to digest this one but having just finished it last night....I liked it. But I didn't love it. And that's disappointing I guess.

Grumpypants · 24-06-2020 8:38am

This bottom part contains almost end game spoilers.

It's mad that people are so fixed on Joel and Ellie. They are petty, cruel, mass murdering psychopaths. They murdered Abby's dad, a decent kind person, a doctor who was saving lives and had to make a horrible ethical decision, but one that would save the human race.

Abby lost her Dad, if Ellie is justified in her rampage then Abby is equally if not more justified. Joel was at this point someone she wouldn't even talk to.

But unlike Ellie, Abby just wanted Joel. She let Ellie and Tommy go. Because unlike Ellie and Joel she is a pretty decent person.

Ellie kills all her friends, the body bags are stacking up in a container, she lost her childhood friend Owen and his pregnant wife.

All the time she puts her life in danger to save two kids that should be "enemies" That Ellie wouldn't have blinked before killing.

She let Ellie and Tommy go because her revenge was purely for the one person who killed her dad, not everyone he ever knew. She let them both go again, along with Dina later. And then when Ellie has her life with a nice house, and baby. She is still such a piece of **** she leaves Dina again to go after Abby.

Naughty Dog did a great job in showing how the players loved characters they should be repulsed by. Their whole point is how people in their tribe justify the horrible acts of their tribe.

And now you have stacks of players raging that "their favorite characters" didn't get to go on another murder spree.

Kinda proves the whole narrative was on point.

BruteStock · 24-06-2020 11:06am

LoL@ Jerry Anderson being a kind and decent person. Just because the game goes out if its way to portray him as a nice guy (to make the player sympathise with Abby) , it does not distract from the fact he was about to dissect a child for a cure that may or may not have made any difference.
Marlene casts doubt on whether he would have done the same if it was Abby , and he probably wouldn't have , as no father would offer up their child as a slab of meat to be used in medical trials.

The fact Jerry discussed his medical findings with a bandit in Marlene , rather than a panel of experts , kinda tells you his decision can't be trusted.
The right thing to do would be to study Ellie over time , run tests etc. Jerry was planning on opening her up within hours of seeing her. Any rational father or father-figure would have done what Joel did.
Besides , Jerry isn't the only doctor left in the world. There was potential for Eille to see many more scientists and doctors down the line. It wasn't the decision of one man to determine Ellie's fate.

Furthermore, tackling the spore problem with with some form of chemical spray would probably be a better solution , as testing , manufacturing and deploying a vaccine in that would is not plausible in the slightest. Its not like its human vs the infected. Humanity is divided up into multiple sections and they are all in conflict with each other.

Independent critical thought is required for a situation like this as neither decision was truly the right one. Its an ambiguous outcome designed to provoke debate.
The sequel on the other hand isn't at all subtle in how it wants the player to chose allegiances.

Penn · 24-06-2020 11:16am

BruteStock wrote: »

LoL@ Jerry Anderson being a kind and decent person. Just because the game goes out if its way to portray him as a nice guy (to make the player sympathise with Abby) , it does not distract from the fact he was about to dissect a child for a cure that may or may not have made any difference.
Marlene casts doubt on whether he would have done the same if it was Abby , and he probably wouldn't have , as no father would offer up their child as a slab of meat to be used in medical trials.

The fact Jerry discussed his medical findings with a bandit in Marlene , rather than a panel of experts , kinda tells you his decision can't be trusted.
The right thing to do would be to study Ellie over time , run tests etc. Jerry was planning on opening her up within hours of seeing her. Any rational father or father-figure would have done what Joel did.
Besides , Jerry isn't the only doctor left in the world. There was potential for Eille to see many more scientists and doctors down the line. It wasn't the decision of one man to determine Ellie's fate.

Furthermore, tackling the spore problem with with some form of chemical spray would probably be a better solution , as testing , manufacturing and deploying a vaccine in that would is not plausible in the slightest. Its not like its human vs the infected. Humanity is divided up into multiple sections and they are all in conflict with each other.

Independent critical thought is required for a situation like this as neither decision was truly the right one. Its an ambiguous outcome designed to provoke debate.
The sequel on the other hand isn't at all subtle in how it wants the player to chose allegiances.

Marlene was the leader of the Fireflies, not just some random Firefly bandit. Jerry was obviously the most senior and experienced doctor trying to find the cure and so with his death (and the significant losses incurred by the Fireflies), all that was lost. There was no panel of experts to consult, the Fireflies were a large but fringe group, and one of the only groups actively searching for a cure. They also did some testing to find that that the key to studying why Ellie was immune lied in her brain as that's where the virus attacks but hers was stopping it.

Ultimately it was Marlene's decision. If Jerry wanted to do it but Marlene didn't, it wouldn't have happened. Marlene was trusting Jerry that it was the right thing to do and so it was her decision as leader of the Fireflies. Given her connection and bond with Ellie, that shows how desperate they were to find a cure and how this appeared to be the only way. Marlene also talked about how many losses the Fireflies had been incurring and how they were verging on being disbanded anyway. Eliie was their last chance.

SomeSayKos · 24-06-2020 11:21am

SMC92Ian wrote: »

Ellie didn't know did she? Also I was pissed we never got a straight up line of Joel saying why he done it, say he loves her or something.

Did you not play until the end of the game?

SomeSayKos · 24-06-2020 12:19pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Joel lied to Ellie, yes, but that was a 'white lie' for me. Something that a parent would do for the benefit of a child. I didn't think Joel was wrong. He was driving her away from the disaster they escaped from, and to an undetermined, but presumably better future.

I understand why Joel lied to Ellie about this, because he wanted her to live as he loved her but he also lied because he knew she'd be angry with him for what he did. His lie was ultimately a selfish one. I don't think it was for her protection, it was for his protection from reality because he was desperate for something good in his life since the death of his daughter.
And what I loved about the ending of the first game was that when Joel lied to Ellie you could tell she doubted his answer. That doubt obviously festered for the years since the first game and I think it's what turned Ellie into such a cold and angry person. That was my take away anyways. The fact that she returned to Salt Lake City because she knew deep down that Joel wasn't being honest with her is proof that it had been driving her mad and she needed to know the truth.

What I really liked about TLOU2 was that there was a whole range of emotions going on with the main characters. I think Ellie's lust for revenge was interesting because it was partly about avenging Joel's murder but it was also because of her own guilt over how she had treated Joel since he admitted that he lied to her. She obviously loved him but was also hurt by him and I think that's what set her off on such a destructive course. It's hard for her to reconcile her love for him with the terrible things that he did.

SMC92Ian · 24-06-2020 1:44pm

SomeSayKos wrote: »

Did you not play until the end of the game?

I finished it 2 days ago.

Sandor Clegane · 24-06-2020 1:59pm

SMC92Ian wrote: »

I finished it 2 days ago.

Joel basically says he loves her,

he says the lord gave him a second chance that day and if e had to do it all over again, he would.

At least thats what I think he's referring to.

SMC92Ian · 24-06-2020 4:56pm

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

Joel basically says he loves her,
he says the lord gave him a second chance that day and if e had to do it all over again, he would.

At least thats what I think he's referring to.

It's not the same, I just found it a bit lacking. After 4 years they didn't say it.

Penn · 24-06-2020 5:05pm

SMC92Ian wrote: »

It's not the same, I just found it a bit lacking. After 4 years they didn't say it.

To be honest,

I would have cringed if they just outright said it like that. He showed he loved her through his actions. It's one of those things that really doesn't need to be said.

Grumpypants · 24-06-2020 5:22pm

For as much as I say Joel and Ellie are the bad guys, at the end of 1 I shot that doctor without blinking :pac:

Ivefoundgod · 24-06-2020 7:16pm

Finished it earlier today

I loved it, easy 8/10 for me and thought the story was excellent. Joels death was well handled i thought and genuinely shocking to me (i avoided all spoilers). Then the switch to Abby mid game was another thing I didn't see coming.

However I did find myelf thinking feck sake I have to build up all my skills and weapons now again. There are a couple of times when I felt the fatigue of killing WLF/Scars/Infected cycle but they kept it fresh enough and I never got too frustrated at any section.

As somone else said, Ellie turns out to be a real dick in this game and I was 100% on Abbys side by the end. Abby loses everyone she had because of Ellie even though she let her live. She was entitled to revenge on Joel after what he did and I saw no problem with her story arc as she grew as the game went on. Ellie just continued to be obsessed with Abby and couldn't see any other resolution. Even when Jesse says we'll go home once we find Tommy she says ok while clearly not really believing it.

I liked the way we got to fight Ellie and by that stage I was on Abbys side, the fact she then lets her and Dina live was a nice touch, how Lev says "no" to her as shes about to kill Dina. Its obvious at that point she is finished with all of this revenge.

I did feel the game should have ended there as I probably would have still liked both characters fairly equally but when Tommy shows up and Ellie leaves Dina I was done with it. Just made no sense and showed how ****ty a person Ellie really is leaving her girlfriend with a small child for god knows how long to go half way across the country to try track down someone who could well have been dead. It really irritated me tbh. That whole section lets the game down too I thought, the rattlers were just a tagged on faction that had no backstory and the whole section was too rushed to give any detail. Their slave owners of some sort is all I figured out. Then when Ellie finally gets Abby she can't even kill her? Making the whole journey pointless. Just didn't like that section at all and took the game from 9/10 to 8/10 for me.

Sandor Clegane · 24-06-2020 9:35pm

I wasn't a fan of playing as Abby, I avoided all spoilers and never read a thing about this game before I played it so was taken aback of having to play as Abby.

I mean you're invested in Joel and Ellies story, and all of a sudden you're then forced to play as the character who brutally killed him while they do their best to try and get you to sympathize with her and her viewpoint, didn't work for me.

I personally would of been happy with Ellie going after Abby, killing her, then use the farm scene to wrap it up, having her try and deal with her actions and PTSD.

Bloc Party! · 25-06-2020 2:47am

Just completed it there. Really enjoyed it. Avoided all spoilers as I heard there was leaks before it came out but just out of interest, how much did it spoil? Was it just the start of it or did it go further into the game?

J Mysterio · 25-06-2020 2:52am

Bloc Party! wrote: »

Just completed it there. Really enjoyed it. Avoided all spoilers as I heard there was leaks before it came out but just out of interest, how much did it spoil? Was it just the start of it or did it go further into the game?

I'm also wondering about this... avoided everything myself too. I think it may just have been about Joel's murder. It's hard to tell at this point due to the slew of media out there on the game.

Kirby · 25-06-2020 5:30am

Grumpypants wrote: »

It's mad that people are so fixed on Joel and Ellie. They are petty, cruel, mass murdering psychopaths. They murdered Abby's dad, a decent kind person, a doctor who was saving lives and had to make a horrible ethical decision, but one that would save the human race.

Abby lost her Dad, if Ellie is justified in her rampage then Abby is equally if not more justified. Joel was at this point someone she wouldn't even talk to.

But unlike Ellie, Abby just wanted Joel. She let Ellie and Tommy go. Because unlike Ellie and Joel she is a pretty decent person.

I'm with you that Joel and Ellie aren't "good" people. But calling Abby a "pretty decent person" is stretching.

Lets just examine two instances in the game.

Ellie accidentally kills Mel. She discovers Mel is pregnant. She has a visceral reaction to it and examines what she has become and decides, with some coaxing, to put Dina first and go home without killing Abby.

Abby puts a knife to Dina's throat. Is informed that Dina is pregnant. Smiles and says "Good!" as she starts to draw the knife.

Let that sink in for a minute.

Abby has killed more people, namely seraphites than anyone else in the game even BEFORE we meet her. She is Isaac's top killer.

This is a woman who grabs all her friends halfway across the country risking all their lives on a personal revenge mission to kill one man. A man who, by the way, saves her life when she finds him. Does she re-examine her outlook after he saves her? Does she f*ck. She grabs a golf club and get's a Joel In One.

Ellie is willing to go alone to do it. When Tommy says he cant come and asks for a day, she decides to leave without him. She doesn't take half of Jackson with her and she doesn't try to guilt people into coming like Abby did with Owen.

Ellie falls into the same trap and her revenge trip leaves a host of bodies on the floor in her wake. None of them innocent, but most of them with nothing to do with what happened to Joel. Not good at all. But her sins don't suddenly make Abby a good person. Is morality a zero sum game?

I liked Abby. I understood her and her motivations and sympathized. So they did a good job with that but lets not go nuts. As I said, Joel and Ellie are not good people. But neither is Abby. They aren't good or bad people......just people. Falling into the same trap of revenge.

As for her father, he was a massive hypocrite. Willing to sacrifice somebody ELSES daughter for the cure but not his own. Marlene called him on that and she was right.

Cutting open Ellies head for the potential for the cure was the right choice. Doing it while keeping her sedated so she can't make the choice for herself and consent was not. He got what he deserved.

Retr0gamer · 25-06-2020 10:00am

Putting aside everything right or wrong that the game does I think the (non)-controversy over this game really highlights one of the worst things about nerd fandom to emerge out of the internet enabled age: fan entitlement.

Fans feeling that the properties they love or are connected to somehow have to conform to what they want from them, how it should be made and written to suit their tastes.

And the ironic thing is what they want will end up ruining and destroying the property that the love, making it stale and rote.

I file these morons with the same idiots that gave out about Wind Waker's cel shaded look and wanted a more 'mature' zelda. The same idiots that are now on the wrong side of history. I mean even I was very skeptical of Nintendo taking an open world design to zelda but I didn't feel the need to go crazy about it. It ended up being what the series needed and made a series that had previously pandered to an audience feel fresh and exciting again. Of course it can go the other way, studios can overly pander to the audience and make a game that ends up pleasing no one (Resident Evil 6) and there are games that try something new but end up failing. However I would prefer if studios took more chances. I mean developers and studios doing that is what gave us Resi 4 and the latest God of War.

So to sum it up in a tl;dr way: entitled videogame fanboys and gamergaters are the absolute worst.

Kirby · 25-06-2020 10:51am

Yeh sorry Retro but I'm not buying that.

Branding people who criticise the game as "entitled because what you want to happen didn't happen" is just as cheap as those who claim you are bigot if you had issues with Yara and Lev's part of the story. I enjoyed the game immensely but I agree with some of the criticisms people have. And even the criticisms I don't agree with I can see have some logical merit behind them
The game DOES have pacing issues.
The returning characters DO seem different from the first game. And not in a growth "Oh it's been several years" way but in a personality transplant way.
Some of the dialogue IS sloppy especially when compared to the first game.
Naughty Dog DID fake trailers with Joel in them to make it seem like he is around more.

And some of the story choices just seem.....bizarre. Druckman just revealed that for most of the games development

Ellie kills Abby at the end

. I'm sorry what?! Changing something like doesn't strike me as a story as refined and tight as a drum as it should be.

How about how they changed

Joel's death scene

multiple times before landing on the one they used?

While I sympathized with Abby I know plenty of people who hated her........... and I'd wager that had a lot to do with how they told the story and the order in which they decided to tell it. Devoting half the game playing as Abby and ignoring EVERY ESTABLISHED CHARACTER from the first game for over ten hours was a bold choice.....and one that a lot of people think they didnt pull off.

To classify all these, in my opinion legitimate complaints as "LULZ ENTITLED GAMERZ!" is fairly arrogant man.

SomeSayKos · 25-06-2020 11:05am

Kirby wrote: »

Some of the dialogue IS sloppy especially when compared to the first game.
Naughty Dog DID fake trailers with Joel in them to make it seem like he is around more.

And some of the story choices just seem.....bizarre. Druckman just revealed that for most of the games development
Ellie kills Abby at the end
. I'm sorry what?! Changing something like doesn't strike me as a story as refined and tight as a drum as it should be.

How about how they changed
Joel's death scene
multiple times before landing on the one they used?

In relation to your first point : I think they were doing a metal gear solid 2 vibe here of trying to give me people an expectation so that the rug would be pulled from under them when Joel's death happens. I really don't think it was to swindle people who are only willing to play the game if they play as the murderous sociopath from the first game.

Your point about scenes being changed: This happens all the time in every form of story writing. The more time an artist spends with a piece of work it changes over time.

Retr0gamer · 25-06-2020 11:07am

Kirby wrote: »

Yeh sorry Retro but I'm not buying that.

Branding people who criticise the game as "entitled because what you want to happen didn't happen" is just as cheap as those who claim you are bigot if you had issues with Yara and Lev's part of the story. I enjoyed the game immensely but I agree with some of the criticisms people have. And even the criticisms I don't agree with I can see have some logical merit behind them
The game DOES have pacing issues.
The returning characters DO seem different from the first game. And not in a growth "Oh it's been several years" way but in a personality transplant way.
Some of the dialogue IS sloppy especially when compared to the first game.
Naughty Dog DID fake trailers with Joel in them to make it seem like he is around more.

And some of the story choices just seem.....bizarre. Druckman just revealed that for most of the games development
Ellie kills Abby at the end
. I'm sorry what?! Changing something like doesn't strike me as a story as refined and tight as a drum as it should be.

How about how they changed
Joel's death scene
multiple times before landing on the one they used?

While I sympathized with Abby I know plenty of people who hated her........... and I'd wager that had a lot to do with how they told the story and the order in which they decided to tell it. Devoting half the game playing as Abby and ignoring EVERY ESTABLISHED CHARACTER from the first game for over ten hours was a bold choice.....and one that a lot of people think they didnt pull off.

Well you see I see a big difference between your complaints here and what the bigot brigade were saying.

You've played the game, you've experienced it and you've raised legitimate and valid criticism of the game. I can see there being a backlash against the game in future retrospectives because it does a lot wrong and can be a bit hamfisted.

However what you didn't do, and what I have issue with, is campaign and rally against Naughty Dog because they were making the game they wanted to make because it wasn't the game you wanted.

I think game development is a healthier environment when developers are allowed to make the games they want to make and even free to make their own mistakes rather than letting the market dictate the games that they should be making.

I just find these people hypocritical as they give out about game developers making games to appeal to market research and trends and yet go off on one when a game tries to challenge convention a little.

The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

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