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Joe Rogan cuts loose..

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  • 17-03-2013 5:16pm
    #1
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,097 ✭✭✭✭


    MMA Personality of the Year 2011 Joe Rogan talks on the controversial subject of Mma fighter Fallon Fox who seems to have been fighting without a license, the next fight has been postponed until a decision is reached on whether they can fight as a woman again. The fighter has 5 first knock outs under the belt so far and knocked out the last opponent in 39 seconds.

    Warning:
    Contains strong language, some people might find offensive.

    http://www.fightopinion.com/2013/03/15/joe-rogan-fallon-fox/

    What's your take on the situation, I know Joe rants a bit but i'm inclined to agree that it's not fair for fallon to be fighting as a woman.


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    #2
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users Posts: 12,427 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    I have to agree with Rogan on this one.
    This person feels they are a woman and got a sex change. I've no problem with that whatsoever. If that's how they feel then fair play and best of luck to you.
    But the fact of the matter is, this person was born a man, and is still genetically a man. There's no way in hell they should be allowed fight women. Anyone who thinks differently is crazy.
    What if Anderson Silva* comes out tomorrow and says he's a woman trapped in a mans body and decides to have a sex change? Is it ok if he goes and beats the fcuk out of women in a women's division?! Not a chance.
    And I don't mean to sound insensitive, its just totally not ok in my book.



    *Anderson Silva is not a transsexual.
    (Just covering myself from being sued!)


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    #3
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    It's a tricky issue, my main objection would be on safety grounds, as there isn't enough research done on the strength of transgender people. Other than that I dont mind, and if other female fighters are willing to fight her then there there's no problem. Transgender athletes can already compete in the Olympics once they do two years of hormonal therapy, if there are no safety concerns should mma be any different? I would also think it a bit strange to ban the woman and have a fight like this perfectly legal
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvGhG1JSgMo


    I'd be interested to hear Mellor's opinion, he's seems to be the most knowledgeable guy here for testosterone/strength/hormonal issues.


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    #4
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    If you're a genetically a man you should not be allowed fight in a women's division.

    It's politically correctness gone mad.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #5
    dave1982
    Registered Users Posts: 4,604 ✭✭✭dave1982


    What MMA men would agree to fight her/him?

    Shes in no mans land, its unfair for her to fight women and its immoral for her to fight men.

    She has no place in sports, I'm not being homophobic or sexiest.Maybe Dana will make a tranny division which would be interesting :confused::pac::pac:


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    #6
    rain on
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭rain on


    As an aspiring female fighter (aspiring to the fight bit, not the female bit :pac:) I've given this a lot of thought. It's crucial that that her opponents are as informed as possible, which so far they have not been - it's only now after a few pro fights that she's come out as trans.

    Gender and biological sex and the relationship between them are a lot more complicated than the old XX/XY dichotomy. As far as I can see it's perfectly possible that a trans woman (many of whom even pre surgery and treatment have a hormonal profile that's closer to that of a typical woman than a man) could fall within normal physical ranges for a woman. But it's also possible that Fallon Fox doesn't, and we don't have enough information at the moment to make that decision one way or the other.

    Rosi Sexton has a good blog post on the issue, the following paragraph of which I found most interesting:
    The differences between men and women in sport depend on a great deal more than current hormone levels and muscle mass. For example, men have a higher ratio of type II to type I muscle fibres, which is associated with improved speed and explosive power, and a heart that is larger relative to body size. It’s not clear to what extent either of these would change after sex-reassignment surgery, or what implications that would have for performance in this case. Because of the bone structure that is developed while still growing, men also have a greater lung capacity and a narrower pelvis, giving a biomechanical advantage – factors which are highly unlikely to be reversed by hormone treatment.There are likely to be other factors that differ between men and women in terms of athletic performance that we aren’t even aware of.


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    #7
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    cowzerp wrote: »
    If you're a genetically a man you should not be allowed fight in a women's division.

    It's politically correctness gone mad.

    But then should this man be allowed to fight in the women's division since he's genetically female? (XX chromosones) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1468937/pdf/jmedgene00371-0092.pdf

    It shouldn't be as simple as genetics imo


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    #8
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    This girl! Was a man, chose to have sex change-well to me he is a man but like anyone I will respect their decision and like joe have no problem calling him her, but no way will I accept letting him/her fight women.

    It is that simple to me.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Options
    #9
    Stephen_King
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭Stephen_King


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Transgender athletes can already compete in the Olympics once they do two years of hormonal therapy, if there are no safety concerns should mma be any different?

    Because most of the sports in the Olympics dont involve athletes trying to inflict concussive head trauma on one another.

    After two years of treatment the hormonal differences between a Transgender and Woman would be about the same, as would their muscle mass. The main issue would be that the skeletal structure and gait of a Transgender athlete would still be male, which could defer an advantage in punching power and durability, as well as movement and leverage.

    Its also next to impossible to test the athletic advantage a Transgender athlete might gain as its not in their interests to push themselves fully during strength\vo2 max tests.


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    #10
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Stephen_King wrote: »
    Because most of the sports in the Olympics dont involve athletes trying to inflict concussive head trauma on one another.

    After two years of treatment the hormonal differences between a Transgender and Woman would be about the same, as would their muscle mass. The main issue would be that the skeletal structure and gait of a Transgender athlete would still be male, which could defer an advantage in punching power and durability, as well as movement and leverage.

    Its also next to impossible to test the athletic advantage a Transgender athlete might gain as its not in their interests to push themselves fully during strength\vo2 max tests.

    Well yeah, that why I said if there are no safety concerns.

    Everything else I agree with, but it's like you said, "could" is the important word, we need research to prove it. Surely there must be some way to get unbiased research right?

    Edit: Although regarding the Olympics point, I presume the Olympics ruling was a blanket one, so transgender boxers can compete I guess?


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    #11
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    What if a woman felt she was a man and got some sort of sex change, should he then be allowed to fight men? As a man there's no way I would want to fight someone like that, I wouldn't feel comfortable with fighting someone who was/is a woman - not out of prejudice (someone will say it is I'm sure) against trans people but because in a genetic, physical sense it wouldnt be fair and I wouldnt want to do it no more that I'd want to fight a woman.

    It also wouldnt be fair for that person to fight women because they'd be doping with hormones.


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    #12
    Stephen_King
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭Stephen_King


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Well yeah, that why I said if there are no safety concerns.

    Everything else I agree with, but it's like you said, "could" is the important word, we need research to prove it. Surely there must be some way to get unbiased research right?

    Edit: Although regarding the Olympics point, I presume the Olympics ruling was a blanket one, so transgender boxers can compete I guess?

    Maybe so, but until there is conclusive proof one way or another they shouldnt be allowed compete.

    Women fighters are the same as men in one regard, they'll jump at fights that they think can give them extra publicity or cash (and rightly so)-I dont think Fallon will have a problem finding willing opponents, which is all the more reason she shouldnt be allowed to compete until evidence overwhelmingly says that it is safe for her to do so.

    Olympic boxing is still miles away from being a full rules MMA fight. Not even close.


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    #13
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    GRMA wrote: »
    What if a woman felt she was a man and got some sort of sex change, should he then be allowed to fight men? As a man there's no way I would want to fight someone like that, I wouldn't feel comfortable with fighting someone who was/is a woman - not out of prejudice (someone will say it is I'm sure) against trans people but because in a genetic, physical sense it wouldnt be fair and I wouldnt want to do it no more that I'd want to fight a woman.

    It also wouldnt be fair for that person to fight women because they'd be doping with hormones.

    This is pretty facetious (sorry :D)but, would you rather fight a man who used to be a woman who can punch harder than you or a regular man who is weaker than you?

    The issue for me is here, why do we have weight classes and testosterone ratio limits etc.., its just a basic way to try to make things fair and safe,and if you can prove scientifically that someone isn't making things unfair or unsafe then they should be allowed to compete.


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    #14
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Stephen_King wrote: »
    Maybe so, but until there is conclusive proof one way or another they shouldnt be allowed compete.

    Women fighters are the same as men in one regard, they'll jump at fights that they think can give them extra publicity or cash (and rightly so)-I dont think Fallon will have a problem finding willing opponents, which is all the more reason she shouldnt be allowed to compete until evidence overwhelmingly says that it is safe for her to do so.

    Olympic boxing is still miles away from being a full rules MMA fight. Not even close.

    Of course there is a big difference, but there is still a risk for brain trauma apparently http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0033606,I presume the Olympic council didn't just ignore the possibility when they made their decision.

    But yeah I do agree, until they prove it's safe she shouldn't be allowed to compete. But to stop her and allow fights like Yoshida-Johnson will be pretty hypocritical.


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    #15
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Maybe she has the hormone profile of a female right now. But hormones are only a timy part of the issue here. HRT, is not going to change the bone structure developed when she was male. Bigger hands, thicker skull, denser bones would all play a physical part in fighting imo.

    I've a question for someone who thinks she should be allowed to fight as a women, and opponents don't need to be warned before hand.
    If you brought her home after a night out, slept with her, and later found out she was trans gender. Would you continue to keep sleeping with her?


  • Options
    #16
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Mellor wrote: »
    Maybe she has the hormone profile of a female right now. But hormones are only a timy part of the issue here. HRT, is not going to change the bone structure developed when she was male. Bigger hands, thicker skull, denser bones would all play a physical part in fighting imo.

    I've a question for someone who thinks she should be allowed to fight as a women, and opponents don't need to be warned before hand.
    If you brought her home after a night out, slept with her, and later found out she was trans gender. Would you continue to keep sleeping with her?
    Do you think she would give you a choice
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #17
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Mellor wrote: »
    If you brought her home after a night out, slept with her, and later found out she was trans gender. Would you continue to keep sleeping with her?

    Cowzer plead the 5th :P


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    #18
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,097 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Looks like fallon has been cleared of any wrong doing in Florida and will fight Allanna Jones on the 24th of may. Story here http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mma-cagewriter/fallon-fox-cleared-wrongdoing-obtaining-license-clearing-way-182721169--mma.html

    I think ill be putting a few dollars on Fallon, any one know where to place your bets?


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