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Post primary return to schools roadmap
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29-07-2020 12:01pm#1https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7acad-reopening-our-post-primary-schools/#additional-guidelines-and-procedures
A thread to discuss issues.3
Comments
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It seems to me that a lot of it will be decided at local level. So if you have a new building and a good principal, it’ll be fine!
I think masks are going to be needed in a lot of classrooms. 1m distance is not going to work for all subjects especially core subjects and academic options.
I don’t know if our principal will go with student based rooms. We have a lot of practical subjects, so I don’t know if we have the space for academic subjects to all have a class base room. I’d prefer to keep my classroom and have students wipe down desks at the end of each class (double most likely)0 -
Random sample wrote: »It seems to me that a lot of it will be decided at local level. So if you have a new building and a good principal, it’ll be fine!
I think masks are going to be needed in a lot of classrooms. 1m distance is not going to work for all subjects especially core subjects and academic options.
I don’t know if our principal will go with student based rooms. We have a lot of practical subjects, so I don’t know if we have the space for academic subjects to all have a class base room. I’d prefer to keep my classroom and have students wipe down desks at the end of each class (double most likely)
I would be much more in favour of teachers retaining their classrooms and students moving between rooms. There is a lot more that teachers touch/use during any class than a student would.
I also think that the time when classes are changed over would give at least a few minutes for the classroom to be aired out.
I would suggest having the double classes would reduce the number of students on the corridor at any one time. Also get rid of the Bell which would mean that teachers could spread out the release of classes by a few mimutes at least0 -
I would be much more in favour of teachers retaining their classrooms and students moving between rooms. There is a lot more that teachers touch/use during any class than a student would.
I also think that the time when classes are changed over would give at least a few minutes for the classroom to be aired out.
I would suggest having the double classes would reduce the number of students on the corridor at any one time. Also get rid of the Bell which would mean that teachers could spread out the release of classes by a few mimutes at least
I would disagree slightly in that I could see greater need for classes to finish on the bell. No finishing before the bell(But Mr/Miss X finishes a few minutes early) and no finishing a minute or two after (which is something I do if I'm explaining a point: bad practice I know) If the classes are in base rooms the last crew I had might be left unattended while im waiting for a colleague, who has them next, to finish up and at second level we know that's not a good scenario!!0 -
We’re all in for an interesting September anyway. I’ve no bother with giving the desks a disinfect between classes but I have a lot of doubt that my colleagues would keep it up or if the kids are to do it themselves, they’ll do it properly. Any news what’s happening with staff rooms ?0
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Popping out for a bit of exercise to clear the head but when I come back I'll share my word doc full of questions with you guys to see what ye think. It's specific to my own school but I'll adapt or edit it to be as general as I can. Chat soon!0
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I would be much more in favour of teachers retaining their classrooms and students moving between rooms. There is a lot more that teachers touch/use during any class than a student would.
I also think that the time when classes are changed over would give at least a few minutes for the classroom to be aired out.
I would suggest having the double classes would reduce the number of students on the corridor at any one time. Also get rid of the Bell which would mean that teachers could spread out the release of classes by a few mimutes at least
I agree on the classrooms. I find it hard to articulate without sounding territorial though.
Doubles would work for most subjects and levels. I don’t think it would work for lca though, I would be reduced to seeing them once a week and I usually only aim for 20 mins work with them anyway.0 -
Random sample wrote: »I agree on the classrooms. I find it hard to articulate without sounding territorial though.
Doubles would work for most subjects and levels. I don’t think it would work for lca though, I would be reduced to seeing them once a week and I usually only aim for 20 mins work with them anyway.
Yes I am somewhat afraid of coming across as being "Its my classroom and I don't care what you say".
I really do not want double, we already have hour long classes, and it will be a nightmare with some classes but if it reducess the risk somewhat then I think its a sacrifice that needs to be made.
A problem that my school will face with be S&S, for the most part the staff have been very supportive and flexible when it comes to S&S, but I dont think anyone is going to be willing to do any additional classes over the requirenents with the additional risk of Covid.0 -
Doubles with hour long classes wouldn't work. We have 40 minute classes, so I’d still see kids 3 times a week with 2 doubles and a single.0
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I can’t see how the morning works right now. We have 750 students. There’s usually 2-3 teachers on supervision for 15 minutes before the start. How do we get them all into the building socially distanced? I don’t think the timing will work. But then staggering the start times will mean some subjects lose contact time0
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mirrorwall14 wrote: »I can’t see how the morning works right now. We have 750 students. There’s usually 2-3 teachers on supervision for 15 minutes before the start. How do we get them all into the building socially distanced? I don’t think the timing will work. But then staggering the start times will mean some subjects lose contact time
Staggered start times won’t work for kids coming in on buses. Or siblings getting a lift. They’ll still be hanging around somewhere.
If lockers are gone hopefully the books will still be available online for free and they can leave their books in the classrooms. That would mean they’re not congregating in particular areas.0 -
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Random sample wrote: »Staggered start times won’t work for kids coming in on buses. Or siblings getting a lift. They’ll still be hanging around somewhere.
If lockers are gone hopefully the books will still be available online for free and they can leave their books in the classrooms. That would mean they’re not congregating in particular areas.
Yeah I think we need more staff though. If we space them out or figure out some staggering then we need more supervision as a direct consequence0 -
So as a teacher (not management) I’m thinking through my normal day
Arrive in the morning and either have a cup of tea in the staffroom or go straight to the photocopier (at a premium). I do no morning supervision. I am a tutor
1. Is the staffroom open?
2. Will we need to book the photocopier given it is currently in a high traffic area or in a cupboard
3. Will we have to do extra supervision in the mornings?
4. Will tutors have more/different responsibilities?
Teach four 40 min classes. One double music
Three different classrooms for the tutorial and the two maths classes. Bring all equipment with me. All have 30 in the class. Double music has 22 students but at least is in the music room.
5. Will all my classes need to be talk and chalk?
6. Will 6 students be removed from my maths class and logistics of teaching/rotating them needed?
7. Will I have access to the music room and instruments?
8. What are the sanitisation requirements for instrument use?
9. will the computers for music technology be there or removed because they are ‘clutter’?
10. Will the piano/drum kits be removed? Will I have access to them for class
11. Will singing be allowed in class?
12. What are the curriculum and exam changes coming? I need these ASAP
13. Do I need to clean down desks in every room as I go?
Break time. Supervision once a week.
14. Is the staffroom available (we won’t fit with any social distancing) or do we have pods of some kind? Where will we meet? In classrooms?
15. How is break working for supervision?
That’s as far as I got during my coffee this afternoon0 -
Students who refuse to socially distance - will they be sent home?0
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As a Home Economics teacher I have a lot of concerns especially in light of the new JC course. The cookery exam is now worth a full 50% so I really wish they would release the curriculum changes immediately and some practical guidelines specific to each subject that requires it.
I would also like information regarding sick leave and will we need to continue to apply for illness benefit after the 6 days etc.0 -
mirrorwall14 wrote: »So as a teacher (not management) I’m thinking through my normal day
Arrive in the morning and either have a cup of tea in the staffroom or go straight to the photocopier (at a premium). I do no morning supervision. I am a tutor
1. Is the staffroom open?
2. Will we need to book the photocopier given it is currently in a high traffic area or in a cupboard
3. Will we have to do extra supervision in the mornings?
4. Will tutors have more/different responsibilities?
Teach four 40 min classes. One double music
Three different classrooms for the tutorial and the two maths classes. Bring all equipment with me. All have 30 in the class. Double music has 22 students but at least is in the music room.
5. Will all my classes need to be talk and chalk?
6. Will 6 students be removed from my maths class and logistics of teaching/rotating them needed?
7. Will I have access to the music room and instruments?
8. What are the sanitisation requirements for instrument use?
9. will the computers for music technology be there or removed because they are ‘clutter’?
10. Will the piano/drum kits be removed? Will I have access to them for class
11. Will singing be allowed in class?
12. What are the curriculum and exam changes coming? I need these ASAP
13. Do I need to clean down desks in every room as I go?
Break time. Supervision once a week.
14. Is the staffroom available (we won’t fit with any social distancing) or do we have pods of some kind? Where will we meet? In classrooms?
15. How is break working for supervision?
That’s as far as I got during my coffee this afternoon
They mention a bit of music-specific stuff in guidelines. Page 22:
Musical Equipment/Instruments – To the greatest extent possible, instruments should
not be shared between students and if sharing is required, the instruments should be .... (the sentence isn't completed, but it probably should say 'wiped with antibac) :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Also on page 23 it seems to suggest you'll have to bring in your own knives, forks, cups etc to staff room. Fair enough. I won't be returning to my staff room anyway.
Am coming with my Word doc!! I'm just trying to clean the house and cook the dinner too :pac:
Phew, this thread feels lovely and safe compared to the other one!!!!0 -
So, if a school has used all available space, employed their extra teacher( I assume approximately 1 per school?) and still can’t implement 1m SD, what then?
If the school just goes ahead and there is no SD in some classes, who is responsible if there is transmission in school and a serious case? The DOE or the BOM of the school?0 -
I read on Twitter that the principal of Ramsgrange CC posted that she would be making staff and students wear face masks where SD was not possible. I got the impression that SD was not going to be possible in the majority of the school and that she was going to enforce the rule.
I am open to correction on this!0 -
chocoholic999 wrote: »So, if a school has used all available space, employed their extra teacher( I assume approximately 1 per school?) and still can’t implement 1m SD, what then?
If the school just goes ahead and there is no SD in some classes, who is responsible if there is transmission in school and a serious case? The DOE or the BOM of the school?
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The use of face coverings/visors must be implemented where the 1 metre distance cannot be achieved. For example:
(a) more than 24 students in a 49sq classroom that has been fully cleared
(b) more than 20 students in a 42sqm classroom.”
This is from the framework for maintaining physical distance.0 -
ClydeTallyBump wrote: »I read on Twitter that the principal of Ramsgrange CC posted that she would be making staff and students wear face masks where SD was not possible. I got the impression that SD was not going to be possible in the majority of the school and that she was going to enforce the rule.
I am open to correction on this!
Yes, this was reported in the independent. It’ll be interesting to see how many other schools announce this over next few weeks.0 -
chocoholic999 wrote: »Yes, this was reported in the independent. It’ll be interesting to see how many other schools announce this over next few weeks.
I am hoping a lot more follow suit including my own.0 -
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I work in a school that has both a fe college and pp school with staff going between the two. We have a separate fe building but some shared spaces. Fe guidelines suggest blended learning and 2m social distancing but the guidelines are not very clear, PP guidelines are a lot more detailed about particular subjects work experience etc. It’s all a bit of a logistical nightmare, just wondering if anyone else is in this situation?0
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chocoholic999 wrote: »Yes, this was reported in the independent. It’ll be interesting to see how many other schools announce this over next few weeks.
As far as I can see, masks are going to be required for a good part of the day.
30 kids in Irish? Wear a mask
16 kids in a large music room? No mask.0 -
ClydeTallyBump wrote: »I read on Twitter that the principal of Ramsgrange CC posted that she would be making staff and students wear face masks where SD was not possible. I got the impression that SD was not going to be possible in the majority of the school and that she was going to enforce the rule.
I am open to correction on this!
We had an email from our principal today. While nothing specific was said, I suspect we will go the same route.Random sample wrote: »“
The use of face coverings/visors must be implemented where the 1 metre distance cannot be achieved. For example:
(a) more than 24 students in a 49sq classroom that has been fully cleared
(b) more than 20 students in a 42sqm classroom.”
This is from the framework for maintaining physical distance.
It's probably easier to get students to wear them all day rather than having to remind them to put them on for certain classes.0 -
From page 11 on the role of LWR
Conduct reviews of safety measures that are in place to address and suppress COVID-19 in the workplace. Reviews (including an examination of the workplace) should be conducted on a regular basis (at least twice per week)
Appendix 3 (page 32) says that schools with over 40 staff get a second LWR so in my personal case, our school will be provided with 2. Page 33 says that roles should be split between teaching and non-teaching staff in event of 2 roles. It’s an expression of interest and then staff choose/vote if more than one/two people express interest. This suggests you cannot be ASKED/FORCED to take this role on, which is good because the person doing this job should really WANT to do it. Sounds like you are basically joining the BOM though!!!!!!! Be prepared to have to attend a lot of extra meetings. You are entitled to 2hrs off your timetable for the role but you are mad if you think you will only spend 2hrs per week doing this job!!!!!
FYI – If a secretary or caretaker is voted into the role, it will lead to a ‘reprioritising’ of their jobs to afford them the time to do the work (ie: you’ll be typing your own letters and hammering your own nails into the walls – page 34)
Consult with the school management on the school’s COVID-19 Response Plan in the event of someone developing COVID-19 while in school including the location of an isolation area and a safe route to that area
Is this for students? If you have 10 kids with Covid, will they all be lumped in there? They are still going to be in school if they have it?? Who will supervise this? Or is it for staff? Are we expected to be on-site if we have Covid? Or is this basically a sick bay for kids who are sent to school sick and then parents switch the phones off? Again … who will supervise this?
From page 13 on emergency procudures
It is important that schools review their emergency procedures involving, fire safety, first aid, accidents and dangerous occurrences to consider any new risks that arise due to the school’s COVID-19 Response Plan.
How will we fire drill? Just don't do them? But what will be the procedure for fire alarms randomly going off during the day?
From page 14 on staff responsibility
It is critical that staff, students, parents and visitors are aware of, and adhere to, the control measures outlined and that they fully cooperate with all health and safety requirements. Staff, should note that they have a legal obligation under Section 13 of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 to comply with health and safety requirements and to take reasonable care for the health and safety of themselves, their colleagues and other parties within the workplace.
I'd just like to clarify that this document states that it is both critical and not mandatory to cooperate with health requirements. I understand that this relates to the workplace re: legal obligation, but is there any obligation for parents/students to cooperate? What about the 18year old students who identify as their own guardian? Will there be a different way of dealing with them?
From page 16 on hand washing
Warm water is preferable to hot or cold water for hand washing but if the plumbing system only supplies cold water, a soap that emulsifies easily in cold water should be used.
Which will you have in your school? In our place we have had NO SOAP so I guess anything will be a step up! :rolleyes:
Hand washing facilities should be maintained in good condition and supplies of soap and towels should be topped up regularly to encourage everyone to use them.
So, will cleaners be in all day? In our place they are there in the evening and your classroom was only cleaned once per week unless you told the cleaner otherwise and even then it barely got done. Poor cleaners were given a couple of hours to do the impossible, wasn't their fault.
From page 18 on social distancing
As far as possible and practical, students would remain in the classroom and teachers would move between rooms.
So, we acknowledge that if we do this, students are going to be left unsupervised for large amounts of time. Will your school be doing this? I have a huge problem with this for a number of reasons, but to try keep this as short as possible I will mention this one - If students are left unsupervised in a room for between 2 and 5mins EVERY hour or so .... this is a nightmare for any student who suffers from bullying and makes school a far more dangerous place than Covid does for them. This goes completely against my idea of child protection and I'm REALLY uncomfortable with it.
From page 20 on staff movement around school
At post primary level consideration could be given to formation of staff “pods” or teams who work together and take breaks together.
Is this going to be done? If so, will timetabling of teaching hours and S&S provision ensure that teachers actually get their breaks? And are not left supposed to be on break but their next class (who had their staggered break 20mins ago while you were still teaching) is there waiting to be let in to be taught?
Staff meetings should be held remotely or in small groups or in large spaces to facilitate physical distancing.
What about parent-teacher meetings? You would think it goes without saying, but it is conveniently not mentioned so staff need to raise this with their management
You would wear a mask where a suspected case of COVID-19 is identified while the school is in operation.
What does this mean exactly? If a student arrives into our class and we think they have Covid? IE: they cough? So … we would have to have a mask to hand at all times then? I would imagine we will have parents writing or calling in to request we wear masks while teaching their children (fair enough, some might be vulnerable) so ... it's not mandatory to wear masks, but it sounds like it should at least be mandatory for them to be provided for us because even if we don't wish to wear them, situations will arise where we might have to.
From page 22 on Library policy
Library Policy – Where practical students should have their own books. Textbooks that are shared should be covered in a wipeable plastic covering that can be wiped with a suitable household cleaning agent between uses. Students should be encouraged to perform hand hygiene after using any shared item. Do all books in your library have this covering? Do all textbooks on the book rental scheme? What are your school doing about school diary system if you have one? What about taking up copies and doing tests in class? I won't be handling a single copy this year.
From page 23 on cleaning
If students are moving between classrooms consideration may be given to appropriate cleaning products being provided to enable them to wipe down their desk, chair and surface before leaving the room.
You'd want to make sure your school will be securing sufficient supplies of this or you know what will happen? It'll be expected that the teacher buys it. I can hear the excuses now ... "oh sorry, sorry, we put the order in, but it's been delayed. It should be here tomorrow" They will have to get into the habit of reordering supplies WELL BEFORE they are needed.
All staff will have access to cleaning products and will be required to maintain cleanliness of their own work area. Under no circumstances should these cleaning materials be removed from the building. Staff should thoroughly clean and disinfect their work area before and after use each day.
Will time be given for this? This sounds awful I know, wtf, teachers aren't willing to come in 20mins before school and stay 20mins after to clean???? No, we are. But we all know that there are some that will just about turn up for first class and are often doing handbreak turns out of the carpark just as the bell goes at the end of the day. These types will not clean their workplaces if the time is not placed on their timetable. I don't think we should be given time for it, but I can see it not being done unless it is part of someone's job. Maybe should be down to the cleaning staff but out of goodwill those of us who don't mind doing it will do so to ease cleaner's workload? You have to remember that if your school chooses to give students base rooms, you will have to teach in those classrooms that haven't been properly disinfected.
From page 24 on cleaning
Person/s assigned to cleaning should avoid touching their face while they are cleaning and household gloves and a plastic apron.
Will these be provided? Will we have enough? Same as above re: wipes
From page 25 on social distancing
If it is not possible to maintain a distance of 2m a staff member caring for a student should wear a face covering or mask. Gloves should not be used as the virus does not pass through skin;
But who is this person? If I have a class of 30students and one is showing symptoms – is it me who brings them to isolation? What do I do with my other 29 kids? Leave them? Then I stay with the one isolated case? Or return to my 29 others? Either way, I’m leaving students unattended. Or are we going to have a dedicated person who will sit around waiting for cases to be sent to them? Who will this person be???
Pages 39-42 - checklist for management
We should all print these pages and make sure our management have done everything that they are supposed to.
I am SO SO SORRY about the length of this post. It took me hours to read the doc and put all this together the other night. But I now feel armed with what I know and what I need to know so at least I can ask my principal the right questions0 -
Fairly basic one, but how are your schools managing the desks issue? It will be tough for every school in the country to procure that many single desks all once, and them storage of the old ones when space is at a premium is going to be difficult. Have orders been placed? Are storage facilities being hired? Buying containers to place on school grounds?0
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Also, just on the above. This is my interpretation of the roadmap. I might have gotten something wrong, so please if you have a different interpretation of some of this, we can discuss here. The more informed we all are going back, the better0
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Ophelia Modern Firehouse wrote: »Fairly basic one, but how are your schools managing the desks issue? It will be tough for every school in the country to procure that many single desks all once, and them storage of the old ones when space is at a premium is going to be difficult. Have orders been placed? Are storage facilities being hired? Buying containers to place on school grounds?
Most desks in our place are single. But here's the thing ... they are placed together in doubles because there is no room for them to be spaced out individually!!!!0 -
Don’t be sorry, that’s excellent reading! I’m going to respond in turn
Examine the whole building/s twice a week? That is a lot!
We will have two as well but god losing a secretary or caretaker is going to be brutal too as the secretaries are over run and our caretakers have been doubling as cleaners for years. Not a role I’m interested in, it’s going to be very hard work
This room stuff reads like a sick bay. No idea where we will find the space for this. And as you say there will need to be very clear criteria for its use and supervision
I have no idea how you would fire drill in any Covid safe way in our school
My worry here is there is going to be a lot of regulation and rules and procedures in relation to this. I want to know them ASAP because if I screw up I suspect there will be cases taken if Covid is spread and we are found to have misread the small print so to speak
Cleaning is a massive issue. We have 750 students and for the majority of my time here have had no official cleaners. The caretakers did mostly cleaning (badly most of the time). I have no idea how our school will manage without extra cleaning staff hours
Lack of supervision in this proposal is massive. Our school is spread across two buildings. It takes over 5 minutes to get from one end to the other with narrow corridors. Considering we are likely to need a one way system now and to clean our desk etc before leaving one room this is going to be a longer delay. I would be very very unhappy for this to be the plan in the music room (since every space in our school is in use for pretty much every class) and if it is I’ll have to organise to remove all instruments entirely or there’ll be none left by the end of the year. I’ve already had issue with non music classes being let in and use the instruments without adequate supervision
Staff pods is interesting. But where do they actually work together and take breaks together? There isn’t space. I’m genuinely thinking we will have to work/eat in our cars
God I hadn’t even thought about PT meetings. Our first two are in October.
Detection of cases. This is something I asked creche and they didn’t really no except that if they detect a temperature then this is definitely the procedure.
We don’t have a library. I’m considering going almost entirely digital this year except for the music manuscript. If students want to transcribe to their copy at home they can. We have iPads though so easier for us. I do think there will have to be a ban on multiple copies etc if lockers are out of use
I’m genuinely insulted at the ‘bringing it home’. I’ll buy my own damn cleaning products. Those in the school won’t be coming near my house. I want to know what the definition of ‘their own work area’ is. If we are moving classes then that’s up to 9 different work areas every day. What does it include? WhiteBoards, desks etc? Do we need to do it in between every class?0 -
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mirrorwall14 wrote: »Don’t be sorry, that’s excellent reading! I’m going to respond in turn
Examine the whole building/s twice a week? That is a lot!
We will have two as well but god losing a secretary or caretaker is going to be brutal too as the secretaries are over run and our caretakers have been doubling as cleaners for years. Not a role I’m interested in, it’s going to be very hard work
This room stuff reads like a sick bay. No idea where we will find the space for this. And as you say there will need to be very clear criteria for its use and supervision
I have no idea how you would fire drill in any Covid safe way in our school
My worry here is there is going to be a lot of regulation and rules and procedures in relation to this. I want to know them ASAP because if I screw up I suspect there will be cases taken if Covid is spread and we are found to have misread the small print so to speak
Cleaning is a massive issue. We have 750 students and for the majority of my time here have had no official cleaners. The caretakers did mostly cleaning (badly most of the time). I have no idea how our school will manage without extra cleaning staff hours
Lack of supervision in this proposal is massive. Our school is spread across two buildings. It takes over 5 minutes to get from one end to the other with narrow corridors. Considering we are likely to need a one way system now and to clean our desk etc before leaving one room this is going to be a longer delay. I would be very very unhappy for this to be the plan in the music room (since every space in our school is in use for pretty much every class) and if it is I’ll have to organise to remove all instruments entirely or there’ll be none left by the end of the year. I’ve already had issue with non music classes being let in and use the instruments without adequate supervision
Staff pods is interesting. But where do they actually work together and take breaks together? There isn’t space. I’m genuinely thinking we will have to work/eat in our cars
God I hadn’t even thought about PT meetings. Our first two are in October.
Detection of cases. This is something I asked creche and they didn’t really no except that if they detect a temperature then this is definitely the procedure.
We don’t have a library. I’m considering going almost entirely digital this year except for the music manuscript. If students want to transcribe to their copy at home they can. We have iPads though so easier for us. I do think there will have to be a ban on multiple copies etc if lockers are out of use
I’m genuinely insulted at the ‘bringing it home’. I’ll buy my own damn cleaning products. Those in the school won’t be coming near my house. I want to know what the definition of ‘their own work area’ is. If we are moving classes then that’s up to 9 different work areas every day. What does it include? WhiteBoards, desks etc? Do we need to do it in between every class?
hah! bringing it home? The only things I have ever brought home from school are copies and illnesses!!!! If anything we'll be bringing the cleaning products IN from home!
It's all in the wording ... they'll provide for an addional 1,000 teachers they say. To help with social distancing they say. Sounds great until you do the maths (1.3 per school)
Another very interesting thing to note is what is says on page 12 of the document:
Maintaining physical distancing in the school environment is recommended as
one of the key control measures to minimize the risk of the introduction and
spread of COVID-19.
They actually went and put this in the document, yet the one thing they have not provided us with any means of actually doing is distancing :eek::eek:0
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