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14-12-2018, 10:06   #1
tom1ie
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Dublin’s traffic it’s a two part problem.

Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
What do you guys and gals think?
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14-12-2018, 10:14   #2
DavyD_83
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Sounds like it makes sense to me.
I definitely agree that keeping cars out of the city would be the best approach and trying not to make that an additional cost and hassle for the people who need to get in.
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14-12-2018, 11:04   #3
Lord Glentoran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1ie View Post
Any reading up on Dublin’s transport problems that I do seems to describe Dublin as being gridlocked and that public transport needs to be given priority etc etc.
I agree with this of course, but the more I think about it the more I see there’s actually two problems.
We have commuters from within the m50 and the outer suburbs who are problem 1 that require a good bus service such as bus connects etc.
problem 2 is the commuters coming from satellite towns such as Naas, Balbriggan, bray etc. I think addressing problem 2 would act like a pressure reducing valve on the whole of the traffic problem. Let me explain:
Let’s take the n7, if we built two p+r’s (capacity 2x 5000) at say kill and rathcoole and took a dedicated lane of the n7 and converted it to qbc all the way to the cc we could run frequent express busses into the cc.
Now when I say express i also mean the bus would have to stop at 4 interchange hubs as it approaches the cc. At these interchange hubs there would be an orbital route that allows the person to hop off and change onto another radial route, eg if you live in Naas but work in fonthill industrial park you drive to rathcoole p+r get the cc bus to the outer orbital which is at the outer ring road, and that heads northbound up the outer ring road towards woodies in Lucan, where the n4 radial express intersects with the orbital route.
At these interchanges bike sharing schemes with high quality bike lanes would be positioned to allow people to have an easy cycle within say 5k of their workplace.
Tackling this problem would take 60000 cars off the motorway network in Dublin if you built p+r’s at all radial routes, (m1,n2,n3,n4,n7,n11).
The other 3 orbital routes would be located further on in to the cc at strategic locations that would take in business parks etc.
eventually rail could replace/ compliment the busses going to the p+r’s.

Also to make people use the p+r’s I would place tolls on the cc side of the p+r’s but also encourage tax incentives for parking and pt travel passes if p+r’s were used.

We’ve spent €120m adding an extra lane to the m7 up to the m9 turn off, could we have spent this money more wisely on stopping the cars from coming into Dublin as opposed to making it easier for them?
What do you guys and gals think?
Or people could use the train services already going from those towns. Infrastructure is already there, only investment needed then is additional trains (which are coming anyway). ‘Busses’ are inherently unreliable once traffic and incomplete bus priority is added to the mix.
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14-12-2018, 11:16   #4
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The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.
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14-12-2018, 12:06   #5
tom1ie
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Originally Posted by Lord Glentoran View Post
Or people could use the train services already going from those towns. Infrastructure is already there, only investment needed then is additional trains (which are coming anyway). ‘Busses’ are inherently unreliable once traffic and incomplete bus priority is added to the mix.
Yes as in the case of the n4, with kishogue railway station (I think it’s still closed), build a p+r their with direct access to the n4 and that’s what I’m talking about. Road and rail pt alternatives to the car. It baffles me that this hasn’t been done.
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14-12-2018, 12:12   #6
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Originally Posted by salmocab View Post
The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.
People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?
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14-12-2018, 12:17   #7
salmocab
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People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?
That was kind of my point, he’d not give up the car for this.
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14-12-2018, 12:30   #8
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I'd wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I see the same as a solution for the N11. Buses are at capacity, and commercial operators are making a success of routes. What isn't there is the bus priority on the N11, or the park and rides. That, and extra capacity, and lots of cars could be taken off the road. Limited stops at Cherrywood (Luas and Dublin Bus routes), Stillorgan, UCD and City Centre.

I actually think a lot of the anti bus/ proposition that only rail can work is just to kick the can down the road, so "I" don't have to get out of my car.
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14-12-2018, 14:45   #9
tom1ie
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Originally Posted by salmocab View Post
The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.
Agreed but he would be pushed out of using his car (stick) by introducing tolls, congestion charge and higher car tax for people with no integrated public transport ticket, and he would be incentivized (carrot) by getting tax credits towards pt ticket, quicker commute times, healthier lifestyle etc.
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17-12-2018, 16:35   #10
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Unfortunately public transport simply isn't an option for so many people, especially around Dublin with it's huge amount of 24/7 shift work.
The idiots still think everyone works 9 to 5 mon to fri. Why use public transport if i still need my car for all of the shifts where there is no public transport available ?
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17-12-2018, 20:34   #11
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Unfortunately public transport simply isn't an option for so many people, especially around Dublin with it's huge amount of 24/7 shift work.
The idiots still think everyone works 9 to 5 mon to fri. Why use public transport if i still need my car for all of the shifts where there is no public transport available ?
No doubt there is plenty of shift work around but the vast majority of people work regular hours. That’s kinda proved by the amount of traffic on the road at rush hour.
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17-12-2018, 20:43   #12
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Originally Posted by salmocab View Post
The guy who lives in Naas and works in fonthill would have to be beaten out of his car and tortured before he’d take 2 busses and a bicycle to work.

Your right though in that there are in Dublin terms two types of commuter and we need to deal with both.
+1

This is Ireland, any solution that involves more than 1 bus / train and a 10 minute walk either side is less appealing than driving, even if it means sitting in traffic for 30-40 more minutes, its still more convenient, bikes and multiple busses is too idealistic to persuade anybody. unless those busses cross over in a sheltered warm terminal it would never work, one rainy day and boom everyones back to the loveable car.
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17-12-2018, 20:46   #13
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Originally Posted by tom1ie View Post
Agreed but he would be pushed out of using his car (stick) by introducing tolls, congestion charge and higher car tax for people with no integrated public transport ticket, and he would be incentivized (carrot) by getting tax credits towards pt ticket, quicker commute times, healthier lifestyle etc.
For somebody living in naas , working in sandyford , the additional time waiting on the bus, changing to the luas and getting the luas to sandyford would likely mean driving would have to basically double in price to make it unapealing.

I know im self employed and even if you charged me a 10 euro congestion charge, 50 cents an exit m50 toll and a 5er an hour for parking anywhere in the city, it would still make more financial sense and give me more earning time than any public transit solution.
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17-12-2018, 20:49   #14
 
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Originally Posted by GreeBo View Post
People will use public transport if its faster or easier than driving.
Until it is, why would anyone bother to switch?
There may be ways of making it faster with a lot of work, but it'll never be easier or more appealing.
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17-12-2018, 20:53   #15
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One thing I do wonder about is do we know where people are actually going on the road. What i mean is how many people who use the m4 corridor go to the cc or sandyford, or swords etc.
that question applies to all the other radial routes. I presume this information is available from the census but it would be interesting to see how many people are going straight to the cc, and therefore these commuters could very easily be serviced by a p+r with frequent bus routes.
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