The Links Thread

frink · 30-07-2020 5:39pm

blue note wrote: »

How are their costs so high that they're in this much trouble? Their revenue must be off the charts compared to normal clubs. Are their costs really that high too?

Seriously, where is all that money spent?

I would guess that they have relatively low membership numbers coupled with lower annual subs. I think Ballybunion is in the region of €500 per year so the high revenue received from Green Fees off sets these lower membership numbers. I could be completely wrong so happy if someone can correct me on this.

In my opinion, they have a premium product and can charge as such. However, I would like them to continue to maintain the 'lower' GUI rates. I think next summer could be a struggle for them on getting the high volume of Green fees in again.

PARlance · 30-07-2020 5:52pm

frink wrote: »

I would guess that they have relatively low membership numbers coupled with lower annual subs. I think Ballybunion is in the region of €500 per year so the high revenue received from Green Fees off sets these lower membership numbers. I could be completely wrong so happy if someone can correct me on this.

You're not wrong re the low membership for Ballybunion, Tralee is similar. Both around €500 or slightly less iirc. (There is a long waiting list and entrance fee of about 7k for both as well I think).

However, neither of those clubs where mentioned in the article and I think they have plenty of cash reserves to weather a year like this year. Royal Portrush would have invested heavily in getting ready for The Open and this year should have seen a big payback on that, so I can see how they might be in that situation.

I would have thought that Portmarnock would have amassed a healthy cash reserve over the years so I'm surprised that they were mentioned.

carq · 30-07-2020 5:58pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Please explain how it is gouging? Please explain in detail what prices should be charged?

Its my opinion
I dont have to answer to you and your demands.

If you are happy paying 300 - 400 euro for a round off with you

Benicetomonty · 30-07-2020 6:06pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Please explain how it is gouging? Please explain in detail what prices should be charged?

Gouging is a strong word but the prices are too high for the domestic market. All well and good if you have extraordinarily wealthy people (ie wealthy Americans or Japanese tourists) who are willing to pay 250e for 18 holes on the links but the vast vast majority of Irish golfers wont pay that. Clubs in question were and are quite aware of this as evidenced by their hasty efforts to bring in a reduced GUI rate, but this is a policy that has been forced upon them, not one they have offered willingly. Outside of Co. Louth, Ballybunion, Tralee and County Down (allbeit via Mourne golf club), our more prestigeous links have been incredibly un accomodating of Irish golfers.

And sure, why would they when they didnt have to? But such policies have irked domestic players for years and if you combine that with the fact that 150e or indeed anything over 100e is still higher than most players will spend on a round of golf even if they werent in the middle of a pandemic and a recession, then you have the situation where these clubs have developed a new found reliance on locals but remain ignorant as to exactly what the current market is looking like.

Comparing fees charged by the top courses in Ireland to those we see in the States demonstrates a very poor understanding of what golf in America actually looks like. It is and always has been a rich man's game unless you get very good at it. I mean very good, to the point where you could play on tour. Members and owners of clubs like Augusta, Pine Valley, Sawgrass etc are multi millionaires who could comfortably make up any shortfalls caused by Covid or something like it out of their own pockets without batting an eyelid. That is the case only for a small number of members in a Portmarnock or a Waterville, the majority of whom are probably distance members. The fact is, top golf courses in America are essentially playgrounds for the very rich; they are not dependent on tourism at all (not that it hurts the ol balance sheet) and will breeze through the current crisis without any real difficulties.

There are precisely 2 courses in Ireland that could possibly be referred to in the same breath: Adare Manor and Hog's Head in Kerry. They neither need nor particularly want locals playing and arent likely to change that attitude any time soon. For the likes of Portrush, Lahinch, Waterville and especially Portmarnock, the latter may already apply but, unless a vaccine is freely available very soon, the former will too, if it doesnt already.

PARlance · 30-07-2020 6:54pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Outside of Co. Louth, Ballybunion, Tralee and County Down (allbeit via Mourne golf club), our more prestigeous links have been incredibly un accomodating of Irish golfers.

Would agree with the rest of your post on the whole but I think this bit frames it incorrectly. Most of our prestigious links are fairly open to locals imo, with the expectation of less than a handful.

I would only class Portmarnock, Doonbeg and Hogs as being unaccommaditing but maybe I'm wrong there and there are others? I didn't include Royal County Dublin as I think it holds weekly or regular senior opens afaik.

In any case, I think the unaccommaditing list is a much, much smaller one.

Benicetomonty · 30-07-2020 7:16pm

PARlance wrote: »

Would agree with the rest of your post on the whole but I think this bit frames it incorrectly. Most of our prestigious links are fairly open to locals imo, with the expectation of less than a handful.

I would only class Portmarnock, Doonbeg and Hogs as being unaccommaditing but maybe I'm wrong there and there are others? I didn't include Royal County Dublin as I think it holds weekly or regular senior opens afaik.

In any case, I think the unaccommaditing list is a much, much smaller one.

Probably shouldve made the first list longer/clearer. For the record, Donegal, Sligo, Dingle, Dooks, Strandhill, Rosapenna, Ballyliffin, Nairn and Portnoo, Dunfaghny, Castlegregory, Carne , Enniscrone and several others that I expect Im leaving out all offer exceptional value and stunning golf that is accessible for anyone and everyone. I just wish I didnt live on the east coast sometimes!
Although Portmarnock Links and, to a lesser extent, the European Club, do try and offer just about palatable quality and regular open comps.

Benicetomonty · 30-07-2020 7:20pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Probably shouldve made the first list longer/clearer. For the record, Donegal, Sligo, Dingle, Dooks, Strandhill, Rosapenna, Ballyliffin, Nairn and Portnoo, Dunfaghny, Castlegregory, Carne , Enniscrone and several others that I expect Im leaving out all offer exceptional value and stunning golf that is accessible for anyone and everyone. I just I didnt live on the east coast sometimes!
Although Portmarnock Links and, to a lesser extent, the European Club, do try and offer just about palatable quality and regular open comps.

Royal Dublin does run the John Lumsden every year. 36 holes for 50e or so; on that basis Il disinclude them from the ultra anti local list, even if they could offer more to the higher handicap, non senior member. Cant afford The Island the same release. Unless youre a member or a guest at a semi open, you aint getting out there without coughin up a 3 figure fee. Just a shame they cant do the odd open day or two over the course of a whole seasen. Imo.

FixdePitchmark · 30-07-2020 9:40pm

A dog relieving himself on the fairway
The continuous stunning sound of a rough sea
Kids playing on the beach in the wind
A child crying
A man looking for balls
A man practicing with 4 balls
A lost summer in a Caravan for a family
An empty course
Stunning greens
A view of The Island
Terrible fairways
A Martello Tower
A 4 iron into a 3 club wind
Views of Howth Head you rarely see
A white bird struggling, near death
Golfers too

Things were not going well in work (out of my control) - the time sheet was full at home - there is a global pandemic (you may have heard about it) . But I needed a fix.

Hit the Port Tunnel and arrived in Corballis a little over 20 minutes later.

I don't know when I was in Corballis last - what is time at this time. Yes it probably was too cheap in the past - but when the price went up and Fingal lost the maintenance , something changed out there - (for better or worse, it changed).

Change is part of life, but for some it is hard, their past, their way, their inner self, their identity, their place.

There are certain things you just think will always be the same. It seems to be part of the Dublin golf story , the gem of Public golf, the hidden gem , the baby links, your first links course, the Bernard Langer legend.

A couple of years ago here, PARlance and I put together a winter matchplay. We based it around Corballis - it was short, cheap and always open. It is perfect for that stuff. But no one in their heart of hearts, considers it a full course. But it is great for your game - particularly wild players like myself. It teaches you course management to a different level.

The place has a place in my heart from childhood too, it was the place you got to somehow (as people didn't all have cars). Rounds were epic long - Deer Park and Public golf in general had bizarre systems of first to arrive and waiting lists to infinity. There were no apps , hardly a phone call , and luck of the draw and for some (lucky/unlucky) public transport. A pint (or 6) for him and a coke (or 2) for you. What a day out.

So I didn't know what to expect. The greens and tee boxes and walkways are all stunning. But (nothing to do with Corballis) playing Links golf without a divot bag at this stage is hard work (for staff and player). The divots and fairways are suffering as a result. I'd also say COVID work is impacting on this too - and there are very strange holes and the rough is gone wild a bit. To add to all that - the place is bizarre soft - never seen the surfaces like that out there. Very strange for late July. Almost parkland looking.

Started par - par , but had a 5 on 3 and then on 6 had a lost ball a bad chip and then you are suddenly on a 7.

Corballis is like that - in wind and one bad shot you are looking at an 8.

I know I'm always obsessed with my score - but decided to just have fun for the rest of the round. Great memories out there , was looking into the Island seeing the reshaped holes and a few kids about 14 - jumping along a fairway . Some kids get all the look.

Went for 7 - a strange shot for me and landed in bunker. Then started seeing a few strange things - and more memories from the past. A dude in a cap with one club hitting balls around a green - a ball searcher, a thing I did myself as a kid - but funny to see a man in 40s , 50s at it. Then another lad hitting 4 balls from one spot - basically a practice course

The lad looking for balls started placing a ball on each green as I went along for me - I was hoping for a pro v 1 - but no, a ball called Nike Mojo

- then a few holes later a Pinacle , then an ultra. Thanks so much

Then started playing very well Bird on 8 - then on the brilliant par 3 9th - with a solid 2/3 club head wind , went for a hero 4 iron low draw - and almost pulled it off - and holed a good 45 foot putt for another Bird :eek:. The sort sequence of holes that makes you believe you are good for a hole or two.

It wasn't about the score, (well except when it was good

) , again very strange of me , went for 11 with a 3 wood. Hit a peach , looked good to hit the silly green , walked up a ball on green. Walk over laughing to myself , is it my ball or the phantom ball dropper. Of course it is a pinnacle

, Find my own ball and get up and down for another bird.

Played very solid for a 2 over back 9, in difficult conditions.

You hit the coast again and see the stunning coast - you think about the past, covid, people you played with there.

Covid is a time to reflect, to be angry , to be grateful, to be reflective, to be appreciative , to be bored, to be alive.

I hit 17 - and went to the rhs of the green - that is probably my favorite shot in golf there , you can hit a chip and run and make the ball go up the hill past the flag and role back into or near the hole. It is more than a pure golf shot, it is fun, and wrong, and imagination , and like an impossible fairground game. Everything that is right and wrong about Links golf is right there. I gave it about 10 "gos" after - and for a second I was back in an almost child like enjoyment of the place.

I hit 18 - and on the hill I seen a boy 12/13 with his father, showing him the joys of Corballis and this incredible game.

I finished 8 over (not bad considering)

I jumped back in the car , felt completely satisfied, 20 odd quid too.

People think it is just golf. It isn't just golf for some.

mike12 · 30-07-2020 10:35pm

Are people a bit deluded thinking because we are members in a club it entitles us to cheap golf else where.
Would u expect me to be able ring your pro shop and say I'm a member of X club I want to play there next week I'm a GUI member so take 75% off the green fee.
All the clubs have a guest fee.
I have played twice in the island for 30 quid in one of their charity days, we also got a winter green fee fo 80 quid.
I have played most of the big links and 100 for RCD is the most I have paid.
I have never played with a member either.

rooney30 · 30-07-2020 10:44pm

mike12 wrote: »

Are people a bit deluded thinking because we are members in a club it entitles us to cheap golf else where.
Would u expect me to be able ring your pro shop and say I'm a member of X club I want to play there next week I'm a GUI member so take 75% off the green fee.
All the clubs have a guest fee.
I have played twice in the island for 30 quid in one of their charity days, we also got a winter green fee fo 80 quid.
I have played most of the big links and 100 for RCD is the most I have paid.
I have never played with a member either.

Exactly . For all the talk of price gouging , people don’t realise that maintenance costs for a top 10 links course will amount to about 1.5 million per year . They are maintained to an exceptional standard .

Benicetomonty · 30-07-2020 11:20pm

mike12 wrote: »

Are people a bit deluded thinking because we are members in a club it entitles us to cheap golf else where.
Would u expect me to be able ring your pro shop and say I'm a member of X club I want to play there next week I'm a GUI member so take 75% off the green fee.
All the clubs have a guest fee.
I have played twice in the island for 30 quid in one of their charity days, we also got a winter green fee fo 80 quid.
I have played most of the big links and 100 for RCD is the most I have paid.
I have never played with a member either.

Last time I played The Island was also a charity event. A 4 man team, maybe 5 years ago. And it was reasonable. But it wasnt 30e. I dont see why they would charge 30e when they could comfortably fill a sheet for 60e. Id be v interested to see when that event was played, and more importantly, where it was advertised, because if it was within the last 5 years and wasnt limited to members and their guests, there's no way I would have missed it.
Certainly wasnt on golfnet because I check it daily for open on the big links, especially those within 20mins of where I live.

Regardless, it isnt about GUI membership for me. Theres a reasonable price for a round of golf in an Irish context. And over 100e unless there are serious perks thrown in doesnt qualify. Frankly, there are too many quality alternatives, with the likes of Donegal, Carne and Enniscrone in particular all hosting regular opens sub 50e.

ShivasIrons · 30-07-2020 11:30pm

Gouging is charging an excessive fee when the consumer has no other choice. For example a bottle of water in the cinema.

There is no price gouging in Irish golf. There is choice and any one can choose to pay the price. The marquee clubs which are amongst the best courses in the world, charge a fee that reflects this.

What price should they charge? The price to produce a round of golf at a 'standard' golf course in Ireland is going to be between €15-€20, membership will be a multiple of this, and visitors should be paying at least twice that, a standard green fee should be €30-€40 or more. Clubs are underselling themselves. Now if a standard green fee is €40, how many rounds at a standard course is equivalent to one round at a marquee course? Is it 2,3,4, 5 rounds or more? Is Portmarnock worth 5 rounds at Ballynormal GC? The answer depends on the player. I would say yes. Ballynormal is 40 so Portmarnock is 200.

Playing another club's course is a treat, not a right. You play on their terms, not yours. They all have reduced rates available, but they have restrictions, it might be a members guest, it might be a winter rate, it might be a competition. What the golfers shouting from the pulpits are saying about the high prices are we want to be able to play any course at any time at a price we choose.

What happens when they get a reduced rate, it becomes, it was in the winter so the condition wasn't good enough, we couldn't play off the tees we wanted too, the prizes weren't good enough in the competition etc.

Why should a course drop their price to cater for golfers who don't value it properly in the first place?

FixdePitchmark · 31-07-2020 9:46am

At the end of the day the market has changed.

In relation to gouging - we all know they are gouging the Americans. I'd also suggest that there is a level of price fixing too , because irrespective of course location, costs . They all tend to shift in unison. The market is - what can we get from the yanks.

There is little or no considerations to the local market in some courses . Some sensible locations understand this and offer a GUI rate by phone. And sometimes it is specifically mentioned on their web page. Sure why not - they do it in America too. I commend them - and hopefully the clubs that have no brought it in , keep it active. (After years of people saying here they never would)

People going on about the superior quality of maintenance - are just not being honest . There are courses with far less budget , with as good a quality and product. Yes you can obviously improve course condition - but talking about budgets at multiple levels is just wrong. It is extra staff at very low level wages - can someone post a wage level of a lower level greenkeeper. Might shock people , it is a low paid industry.

There a couple of course mentioned (we know them) - and there is little or no goodwill or relationship between them and the general GUI golfers. People thinking this is going to come back (even for a free round of golf) are also wrong. It is 10s, 100s of years of closed gates , elitism , and discrimination.

I for one, am not going to take the soup for a cheap round of golf.

The problem these courses now have is , the Irish golfer knows the market in Ireland better than some of these clubs. The east coast courses are limited in quality - There are only 3 clubs at the highest level of Links golf The Island, The European , Baltray.

For better faultily and cheaper golf you always need to go West and North West.

Hopefully some of the "want to be" courses south and south west lose a few notions of grandeur.

blue note · 31-07-2020 10:18am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A dog relieving himself on the fairway
The continuous stunning sound of a rough sea
Kids playing on the beach in the wind
A child crying
A man looking for balls
A man practicing with 4 balls
A lost summer in a Caravan for a family
An empty course
Stunning greens
A view of The Island
Terrible fairways
A Martello Tower
A 4 iron into a 3 club wind
Views of Howth Head you rarely see
A white bird struggling, near death
Golfers too

Things were not going well in work (out of my control) - the time sheet was full at home - there is a global pandemic (you may have heard about it) . But I needed a fix.

Hit the Port Tunnel and arrived in Corballis a little over 20 minutes later.

It's such an experience of a golf course, because its truly unique. I wouldn't describe it the same way - "not a full course", but I think we're not too far apart in what we think of it. It's just not the same as playing anywhere else. And it's not just the difference between links and parkland, it's the difference between corballis and the rest of ireland!

I'll freely admit I don't see it as where I'll end up long term. I live between malahide and Portmarnock links, so I suspect one of those will get me in a few years. And one of the things keeping me in corballis for the moment is that I'm convinced I'll be a better golfer from it.

One of the things I really like about the course it that it forces you to take difficult shots on. There's nowhere really to bail out when going for the 4th, 7th, 13th greens and they're big targets, but the consequences of missing them can be grave. And then on 17 you even have to go for the right side of the green. If the flag is on the bottom tier and you hit the top, you can be looking at a putt you can't keep on the green, so then you'll have to make up and down for bogey. After having hit the green!

You need to be sensible about course management, but I think a lot of the strength of the course lies in the shots the course forces you to hit.

the.red.baron · 31-07-2020 10:26am

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Gouging is charging an excessive fee when the consumer has no other choice. For example a bottle of water in the cinema.

There is no price gouging in Irish golf. There is choice and any one can choose to pay the price. The marquee clubs which are amongst the best courses in the world, charge a fee that reflects this.

What price should they charge? The price to produce a round of golf at a 'standard' golf course in Ireland is going to be between €15-€20, membership will be a multiple of this, and visitors should be paying at least twice that, a standard green fee should be €30-€40 or more. Clubs are underselling themselves. Now if a standard green fee is €40, how many rounds at a standard course is equivalent to one round at a marquee course? Is it 2,3,4, 5 rounds or more? Is Portmarnock worth 5 rounds at Ballynormal GC? The answer depends on the player. I would say yes. Ballynormal is 40 so Portmarnock is 200.

Playing another club's course is a treat, not a right. You play on their terms, not yours. They all have reduced rates available, but they have restrictions, it might be a members guest, it might be a winter rate, it might be a competition. What the golfers shouting from the pulpits are saying about the high prices are we want to be able to play any course at any time at a price we choose.

What happens when they get a reduced rate, it becomes, it was in the winter so the condition wasn't good enough, we couldn't play off the tees we wanted too, the prizes weren't good enough in the competition etc.

Why should a course drop their price to cater for golfers who don't value it properly in the first place?

There is gouging in irish golf

look at their operating profits

gouging, overcharging, simple enough really, not dependent on alternatives

the cost doesn't reflect the price

its not a treat, you pay for it, its just a piece of land with some golf holes on it

golfguy1 · 31-07-2020 11:08am

the.red.baron wrote: »

There is gouging in irish golf

look at their operating profits

gouging, overcharging, simple enough really, not dependent on alternatives

the cost doesn't reflect the price

its not a treat, you pay for it, its just a piece of land with some golf holes on it

Golf clubs are businesses, they are meant to make an operating profit.
They don't overcharge, they charge what their potential customers are willing to pay.
Just because we don't value a round of golf at €200 doesn't mean it's overpriced.

mike12 · 31-07-2020 11:52am

It was 2 and 3 years ago I played the Island. Pretty sure it was 30 we saw it on their website

In the USA they are used to paying €250 plus green fees for average enough courses.
There are 100s of courses you can't even play.
Paying that for a course here doesn't bother them they see it as decent value.

willabur · 31-07-2020 12:11pm

mike12 wrote: »

It was 2 and 3 years ago I played the Island. Pretty sure it was 30 we saw it on their website

In the USA they are used to paying €250 plus green fees for average enough courses.
There are 100s of courses you can't even play.
Paying that for a course here doesn't bother them they see it as decent value.

I'd go further than that - they associate cost with quality. Courses that have increased green fees have gotten more traffic rather than less because they show up on searches people are making with a higher pricepoint.

ShivasIrons · 31-07-2020 3:53pm

the.red.baron wrote: »

There is gouging in irish golf

look at their operating profits

gouging, overcharging, simple enough really, not dependent on alternatives

the cost doesn't reflect the price

its not a treat, you pay for it, its just a piece of land with some golf holes on it

Playing a great golf course is not a treat?

mike12 · 01-08-2020 7:58am

It's not like we dont have alternatives to paying big green fee.
If it was a case of I want to play a links course but they are all €150 plus then I get the whinging but the quality is super in the courses below the top tier.

Go try and book a links golf trip to Scotland and the courses are disappointing compared to our west coast links.

PARlance · 03-08-2020 9:29pm

Just back from County Sligo. Course was in great condition and have to say that I appreciated it a lot more the second time around, fantastic course. Will have to get up again before the summer is out.

Started terribly with 3 scratches on the first 5 but got it together for a somewhat respectable 32 points. Probably the calmest day of the year there, there wasn't a breeze on the back 9.

mighty magpie · 04-08-2020 12:16am

Signed up to rosapenna scratch cup. Price up to €60 but still great value for 36 holes across both courses.

dan_ep82 · 04-08-2020 12:36am

Just done the same for Baltray , one round for €60 but I feel it's more than worth it

Dublin Spur · 04-08-2020 9:22am

isn't it nice to see some of the best links clubs opening their door to competitive golf at reasonable prices

it's something that doesn't tend to happen in and around the capital

wouldn't it be interesting if members of clubs that never run scratch cups or open competitions were excluded from participating in other clubs' scratch cups and open competitions ?

thewobbler · 04-08-2020 11:44am

Dublin Spur wrote: »

isn't it nice to see some of the best links clubs opening their door to competitive golf at reasonable prices

it's something that doesn't tend to happen in and around the capital

wouldn't it be interesting if members of clubs that never run scratch cups or open competitions were excluded from participating in other clubs' scratch cups and open competitions ?

And round and round we go again.

When your club closes for a week in high season to host top amateur events, give them a bell.

mighty magpie · 04-08-2020 3:53pm

Portmarnock, co. Louth and royal dublin package announced. €350

davegilly · 04-08-2020 4:06pm

mighty magpie wrote: »

Portmarnock, co. Louth and royal dublin package announced. €350

They're not really learning anything are they, when it comes to pricing these things for the Paddy?

FixdePitchmark · 04-08-2020 6:40pm

davegilly wrote: »

They're not really learning anything are they, when it comes to pricing these things for the Paddy?

A bit steep considering it is a package.

To make things worse - you have to use by the 30th of September making it even more daft.

thewobbler · 04-08-2020 7:07pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A bit steep considering it is a package.

To make things worse - you have to use by the 30th of September making it even more daft.

I’d normally stand up for the big links.

But I can’t see too many people biting on this one. A couple of those courses have overestimated their appeal.

FixdePitchmark · 04-08-2020 7:12pm

thewobbler wrote: »

I’d normally stand up for the big links.

But I can’t see too many people biting on this one. A couple of those courses have overestimated their appeal.

I accept - I'd go out and pay 150 for Portmarnock alone (once off). But when they were all lumped in was expecting a good deal maybe 250 euro.

I just think you would get the other two at about 100 anyway.

An effort - but also hard to organize it all in 2 months too. Day off work etc.

I wouldn't fully rule myself out from taking it up - but price takes the goodness out of it.

The Links Thread

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