General British politics discussion thread

Seth Brundle · 20-01-2021 1:53pm

My wife is from Belfast. She didn't learn about the famine in history but rather she learnt about crop rotation in Anglia etc
Ireland didn't feature. :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle · 20-01-2021 1:57pm

I also note in that Telegraph article the following...

6. Peace in Northern Ireland
Just about the only comments made by Biden during the Presidential election campaign were in September when he warned that "we can’t allow the Good Friday Agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland to become a casualty of Brexit".

Biden's fears did not come to pass. Peace has not been jeopardised because the trade deal announced on Christmas Eve means that a hard border – a real concern in the event of no trade deal – has not been erected on the island of Ireland.

But there's peace still in NI simply because the EU did not budge and allow the UK government to create havoc.
The author is re-writing history.

Peregrinus · 21-01-2021 2:41am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

It's hard to know but I assume that the Telegraph genuinely does not understand Irish history. At all!

https://twitter.com/mckinneytweets/status/1351819966958460928

When I first saw the quote I assumed there was a misprint; that the word "not" had been omitted, and the point being made was that Biden's family connection to the Famine might tend to make him less well-disposed to the UK.

But, apparently, no; the quote comes from a (paywalled) article listing reasons why Biden might be favourably-disposed to the UK.

Yet it's impossible that anyone with the basic historical awareness to know that there was a famine in Ireland at all could also think that reflecting on that famine could possibly lead someone towards a more favourable view of the UK.

I've seen other tweets by Hope in which he rather shame-facedly attempts to explain the point he was trying to make here and, frankly, they make no sense.

My guess: He was up against a deadline. His editor wanted "7 reasons why Biden will be nice to us!" He couldnt think of seven coherent reasons. He stuck this in, maybe intended to come back to it and work on it a bit, forgot about it or ran out of time, it got printed, he got mortified.

Leroy42 · 21-01-2021 8:34am

The UK relationship with Biden will be fine, it is both countries interests that they have a working relationship.

And Biden will have a nice visit to Ireland, and the relationship will appear great but, just like with UK, only in so far as it benefits the US.

We are too insignificant in our own right to lead to any problems, but carry enough easy political capital to make it worthwhile to give us some attention.

The UK, even outside the EU, is a major NATO member and may even be more open to working 'with the US.

Peregrinus · 21-01-2021 8:41am

Leroy42 wrote: »

The UK relationship with Biden will be fine, it is both countries interests that they have a working relationship.

It all depends on what you mean by "fine".

If you think it means that the US will give the UK a sweet, sweet trade deal that more than offsets the economic injury to the UK inflicted by its erection of barriers to trade with the EU and the EEA — no, it will not be fine.

If you think it means that the US will instinctively side with the UK in any difference of opinion with the EU, and will press the EU to accede to UK requests — no, it will not be fine.

If you think it means that the US will prioritise the health of its relationship with the UK over the health of its relationship with the EU - no, it will not be fine.

If you think it means that the US will attach the same value to its relationship with the UK as it did when the UK ws a member state - no, it will not be fine.

If you think it means the US will treat the UK as a friendly second-rank power and as a NATO partner of comparable significance to France - yeah, it will be fine.

Leroy42 · 21-01-2021 9:10am

None of that was the case before, why would it be any different now?

There are serious implications for the UK leaving the EU, most notably from a US-UK POV is that the UK can now no longer be used as an ally to the US within the EU, and also of course it is no longer the bridge into the EU for the US.

But it is still a major market in its own right, still maintains a strong diplomatic power (permanent member of EU, senior member of NATO, member of G7 etc).

These means that it is very much in the US (and the UK's) interest to maintain a strong relationship. Will the balance of power have shifted?

No, not really, any proper review pf the relationship prior to Brexit would have shown the reality of the relationship.
But really I am making the point that articles about the advantages to UK from Biden, or people making the point that Biden loves Ireland more are missing the point.

Peregrinus · 21-01-2021 9:32am

Oh, I'm not arguing with you. More, I think, with Brexiters who have an unrealistic view of what the US might do for the UK, or of how Brexit affects the UK's diplomatic standing and strategic value to its allies.

Biden will get on fine with the UK, for any reasonable understanding of "fine". He certainly will not be hostile.

But the kind of right-wing English commentator who got steamed up about Obama not keeping a bust of Churchill in the Oval Office — remember that? — will find that he has exactly the same beef with Biden.

21-01-2021 9:48am

Biden is president of the US, he will do whatever is in the best interests of the US.

Peregrinus · 21-01-2021 9:58am

Aegir wrote: »

Biden is president of the US, he will do whatever is in the best interests of the US.

Yes, of course. Just not for the reason proposed by Christopher Hope!

21-01-2021 10:16am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, of course. Just not for the reason proposed by Christopher Hope!

and not because his great great great grand daddy ran the local board of works in Ballina.

ancapailldorcha · 01-02-2021 12:41pm

It looks like Paul Dacre is going to be in charge of the communications regulator, Ofcom. In this interview, Steve Baker opines that he'd like Charles Moore, former editor of the Spectator, the Daily Telegraph and the Sunday Telegraph to be in charge of the BBC for reasons that seem to implicitly endorse pro-conservative censorship.

https://twitter.com/g_gosden/status/1355910913673601025

Given the general state of the media here and the lack of trust in it overall, I don't know how much of a difference this will make.

Joe_ Public · 01-02-2021 12:50pm

Watched that steve baker interview earlier, thought it was hilarious, a comedy classic. Ole Steve suggesting two fusty old conseratives should be appointed to ensure impartiality, it was up there with the tory mp who said last year that the tory cuts to nurse and other essential worker numbers was why we couldn't afford to have a labour government. I'm still laughing.

ancapailldorcha · 02-02-2021 5:34pm

Sadly, Cpt. Tom Moore has lost his battle with Coronavirus:

Captain Sir Tom Moore has died with coronavirus.

The 100-year-old, who raised almost £33m for the NHS, was taken to Bedford Hospital after requiring help with his breathing on Sunday.

His daughter Hannah Ingram-Moore said he had been treated for pneumonia over the past few weeks and last week tested positive for Covid-19.

The Army veteran won the nation's hearts by walking 100 laps of his garden before his 100th birthday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-55881753

Rjd2 · 05-02-2021 12:52am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag

Not gone down well on left wing areas online but Labour need to regain the so called red wall and whether the internet likes it or not patriotism matters.

Starmer is not perfect far from it in fact, but he knows this is something that needs addressing. If those who you need to win think your party doesn't like its own country you are doomed.

fiveleavesleft · 05-02-2021 2:03am

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag

Not gone down well on left wing areas online but Labour need to regain the so called red wall and whether the internet likes it or not patriotism matters.

Starmer is not perfect far from it in fact, but he knows this is something that needs addressing. If those who you need to win think your party doesn't like its own country you are doomed.

Disappointing to see he is ending one of the few successful Corbyn strategies, the Community Activist Units. They were electorally sound.

Will be interesting to watch what he does with this Patriotism turn & what new ideas he has. At the minute it sounds like weak sauce. He'll need more than flags & bombs but to be fair it's early days. Although you would have thought the Community stuff would have come in handy to sell it on the ground.

In other Starmer news this week there was a fun rumour that he & Boris nearly had a punch up in the house. Sadly it wasn't true.:(

BonnieSituation · 05-02-2021 2:35am

I think we can take it that they've given up on Scotland so

Joe_ Public · 05-02-2021 8:42am

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

Disappointing to see he is ending one of the few successful Corbyn strategies, the Community Activist Units. They were electorally sound.

Will be interesting to watch what he does with this Patriotism turn & what new ideas he has. At the minute it sounds like weak sauce. He'll need more than flags & bombs but to be fair it's early days. Although you would have thought the Community stuff would have come in handy to sell it on the ground.

In other Starmer news this week there was a fun rumour that he & Boris nearly had a punch up in the house. Sadly it wasn't true.:(

I would have thought that community oriented stuff tied in with a lot of what the dems did in the us, particularly the way they marshalled the vote in georgia. I thought labour might be thinking there's something to be learned from that, but seems the strategy is to go another way, taking the tories on on their own patch. May elections will give some early indication as to how well this is going down.

Markcheese · 05-02-2021 10:23am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I think we can take it that they've given up on Scotland so

They might as well, scotland seems to have given up on them ...

ancapailldorcha · 07-02-2021 2:49pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I think we can take it that they've given up on Scotland so

Markcheese wrote: »

They might as well, scotland seems to have given up on them ...

Realistically, Scotland belongs to the SNP. Labour can opt for supporting independence or promising a referendum while remaining officially neutral both of which will offend unionists and conservatives. It'll also play badly in the press. The other option is to explicitly oppose IndyRef 2 but then you'll offend internationalists, the young, much of the left and anyone who sympathises with Scotland's plight.

Ultimately, winning for Labour needs too broad of a coalition of voters. Starmer knows he needs to win over the red wall voters which in and of itself is not an insurmountable obstacle. The trick is winning over these small c conservatives while retaining the pro-EU, left wing and largely liberal base.

Johnson has one year done and hasn't exactly covered himself in glory which is why his party must jump on the meanest excuse for a win and shove it down people's throats. They recklessly approved a vaccine before waiting on the safety and efficacy data and touted it as a triumph despite being bound by EU law at the time due to the transition period. In fairness, they did front the R&D money but that's about it.

I just think Starmer has to work much harder for a 2024 win that the Tory party leader unless he can win over the press as well which seems unlikely.

Frankly, I'm just hoping we don't have to endure the "progressive alliance" trope again.

Capt'n Midnight · 18-02-2021 11:18pm

Imports from EU not facing full controls till July
Vaccine rollout means most voters will get first shot by summer or at least know someone who has. And lockdowns opening up and business picking up.

Local elections in May can measure the feel good factor.

Labour not holding Boris to account over anything at the moment.

I can't rule out an election attempt that would grant the Tories another 5 years. The can would be dropped kicked. Boris could do a "mission accomplished" and stand down. Absolute worst case scenario Tories could do a deal with the SNP and hand over Scotland for five more years, and that could possibly last for an election or two if the Tories can keep all the MP's on side. (Remember Boris jumped ship to leave because he wasn't going to climb up the greasy ladder any further on the remain side)

Can't remember if I saw it in BBC of the Guardian but Tories have been stirring it up by claiming that the Mayor of one of the northern cities , Manchester/Birmingham/Liverpool would be contesting Labour leadership. A leadership contest would be disastrous with a pending election. I can't rule out it being triggered or at least having the red tops whip up a frenzy as a distraction.

Joe_ Public · 18-02-2021 11:30pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Imports from EU not facing full controls till July
Vaccine rollout means most voters will get first shot by summer or at least know someone who has. And lockdowns opening up and business picking up.

Local elections in May can measure the feel good factor.

Labour not holding Boris to account over anything at the moment.

I can't rule out an election attempt that would grant the Tories another 5 years. The can would be dropped kicked. Boris could do a "mission accomplished" and stand down. Absolute worst case scenario Tories could do a deal with the SNP and hand over Scotland for five more years, and that could possibly last for an election or two if the Tories can keep all the MP's on side. (Remember Boris jumped ship to leave because he wasn't going to climb up the greasy ladder any further on the remain side)

Can't remember if I saw it in BBC of the Guardian but Tories have been stirring it up by claiming that the Mayor of one of the northern cities , Manchester/Birmingham/Liverpool would be contesting Labour leadership. A leadership contest would be disastrous with a pending election. I can't rule out it being triggered or at least having the red tops whip up a frenzy as a distraction.

Definite attractions for tories to call an election within next 12 months or so, while vaccine feelgood factor is vibrant and economy hasn't yet gone to hell in a handcart. Labour...jeez!

Sounds like Andy Burnham they'd be talking about. Hard to say any substance to those rumours, but Burnham definitely wants to be next labour leader, no question about that, and way things are shaping up, I'd be surprised if he wasnt already putting some sort of outline on what a leadership challenge would entail and how you'd go about it from that position.

Capt'n Midnight · 18-02-2021 11:42pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Sounds like Andy Burnham they'd be talking about. Hard to say any substance to those rumours, but Burnham definitely wants to be next labour leader, no question about that,

That's the lad

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/boris-johnson-andy-burnham-2024-elections-7319730

Downing Street is reportedly preparing for Boris Johnson to fight Andy Burnham at the next general election.

Sir Keir's leadership has been called into question over the past 10 days following a series of poor polling numbers - sparking speculation of a leadership challenge if the numbers do not improve.

Now Downing Street believes that the most likely candidate to succeed Sir Keir in the future is the existing mayor of Greater Manchester.

Tory spin which reminds me of Terry Prachett's Grand Vizier of the Agatean Empire - Nine Turning Mirrors

But with most of the Press onside with the Govt it's a case of "You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war.” .

Joe_ Public · 18-02-2021 11:47pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

That's the lad

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/boris-johnson-andy-burnham-2024-elections-7319730
Tory spin which reminds me of Terry Prachett's Grand Vizier of the Agatean Empire - Nine Turning Mirrors

But with most of the Press onside with the Govt it's a case of "You furnish the pictures, and I'll furnish the war.” .

Oh yeah, the tories will ramp that up to the hilt. But burnham has never made any secret of his leadership ambitions so he gives them some bones to pick the meat from. Problem is, he'd have to be in parliament to enable that dream so that's a pretty big hurdle he'd have to first overcome before winning any leadership campaign - of which he already has two losing ones behind him!

09-03-2021 4:01pm

There's some weird shell games going on here.
Looks like a lender bet the house on one company honouring their debts.

Be interesting to see if the government tries to save it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56320416

The principal financial backer of one of the UK's largest industrial groups has fallen into administration.

Specialist bank Greensill Capital was the main lender to businessman Sanjeev Gupta's sprawling empire, which includes Liberty Steel.

The appointment of administrators to Greensill puts 5,000 jobs at risk at Liberty Steel and other firms.

In a court filing, Greensill said Mr Gupta's operations were in "financial difficulty" and defaulting on debt.

Mr Gupta declined to comment on the claims, but his business GFG Alliance earlier said that it had adequate funding for its current needs.

....

A spokesman for Mr Gupta said Liberty's operations were "running as normal", had adequate funding for their current needs and that the refinancing plans were progressing. It added that a recent upturn in global steel prices was beneficial for the company's prospects.

Liberty is a major supplier to the public, including hydro-power contracts in Scotland and steel contracts for the Ministry of Defence. The government said it was "monitoring the situation closely".

"This is a deeply concerning situation and a very worrying time for Liberty Steel workers," said Lucy Powell, Labour's shadow minister for business and consumers.

"It's vital that the government acts with the urgency required and doesn't wash their hands of the situation."

Capt'n Midnight · 09-03-2021 10:33pm

For anyone following the shenanigans in the US this will seem Very familiar.
It did to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), and Commons Cause

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/09/warning-over-photo-id-law-change-for-uk-wide-and-english-elections

There was only one conviction for “personation” fraud, which voter ID is meant to prevent, in the UK in 2019.
...

Latest figures show 24% of white people in England do not hold a full driving licence, compared with 39% of people of Asian ethnicity and 47% of black people.

breezy1985 · 09-03-2021 11:10pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

For anyone following the shenanigans in the US this will seem Very familiar.
It did to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), and Commons Cause

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/09/warning-over-photo-id-law-change-for-uk-wide-and-english-elections

I do think its odd that with all the things you need ID for this most serious of things requires nothing what so ever. Also how will postal votes work.

Simple solution for the ID thing is offer a free voter card. If you cant be arsed to apply you probably were not going to vote anyway

Leroy42 · 09-03-2021 11:51pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I do think its odd that with all the things you need ID for this most serious of things requires nothing what so ever. Also how will postal votes work.

Simple solution for the ID thing is offer a free voter card. If you cant be arsed to apply you probably were not going to vote anyway

Exactly. If they were really worried about voter fraud, rather than limiting voters, then they would have a free system. In terms of costs, it wouldn't be that much in comparison to overall election costs.

But we know it isn't about improving the security of the electoral system.

Sam Russell · 10-03-2021 12:13am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Exactly. If they were really worried about voter fraud, rather than limiting voters, then they would have a free system. In terms of costs, it wouldn't be that much in comparison to overall election costs.

But we know it isn't about improving the security of the electoral system.

The Poll Tax under M Thatcher was another attempt at voter suppression.

What is new in this?

Joe_ Public · 10-03-2021 12:53am

You have to admit the tories do electoral politics pretty well. They know they are currently raising generations who will never live long enough to clear their debts, own any property or be in a position to financially help their offspring and so wont naturally segue into dutiful conservative voters like those who were able to climb the ladder following thatchers big council home sell off and other like measures. Not to worry, they have a few other tricks up their sleeve, a couple of insurance cards as it were. Boundary changes, levelling up money shovelled to the "right" places etc

PommieBast · 10-03-2021 1:54am

Joe_ Public wrote: »

You have to admit the tories do electoral politics pretty well. They know they are currently raising generations who will never live long enough to clear their debts, own any property or be in a position to financially help their offspring and so wont naturally segue into dutiful conservative voters like those who were able to climb the ladder following thatchers big council home sell off and other like measures. Not to worry, they have a few other tricks up their sleeve, a couple of insurance cards as it were. Boundary changes, levelling up money shovelled to the "right" places etc

The Conservative party is also banking on a lot of support simply not having anywhere else to go. A few places like my heavy-Remain hometown of Berkhamsted where Labour are kryptonite might swing towards the LibDems, but with FPTP a loss of a few L&SE seats like this is acceptable collateral damage.

General British politics discussion thread

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