Car clamping. Legal??

#15 · 23-07-2009 1:20am #1

Hi.
I read over a few old threads on other forums about clamping. No one seemed to be sure about the legal situation. I thought I might be able to get some clarification here.

Is it legal to remove a clamp from a car? I'm talking about clamping on private property; apartment blocks, shopping centres etc.

I mean, is it not an offence to interfere with someone else's private property?

I have never been clamped but I would be interested to know the legal position on clamping.

Thanks.

Victor · 23-07-2009 2:00pm

It is generally considered fair game if you can remove it without damaging it.

Damaging it may be criminal damage.

As the fee is usually for clamp removal, it is also generally considered that the fee won't apply if you remove it yourself.

#15 · 23-07-2009 2:37pm

Victor wrote: »

It is generally considered fair game if you can remove it without damaging it.

Damaging it may be criminal damage.

As the fee is usually for clamp removal, it is also generally considered that the fee won't apply if you remove it yourself.

Thanks for the reply.

Does the damage have to be done intentionally? ie if it gets slightly damaged (accidentally) while removing it, is that still considered criminal damage?

And what is the situation is someone just cuts off the clamp, throws it into the boot, and drives away? Technically it is stealing right? But in the absence of CCTV or a witness, how could a clamping company legally pursue an individual in that instance?

Victor · 23-07-2009 2:44pm

#15 wrote: »

But in the absence of CCTV or a witness, how could a clamping company legally pursue an individual in that instance?

They take photos when they clamp you.

Hagar · 23-07-2009 2:49pm

What legal status do those photos hold? Any photo can be shopped.

Are they obliged to maintained a chain of evidence in the way a Garda collecting evidence at a crime scene would?
If not I suspect they are worthless.

nuac · 23-07-2009 3:03pm

Hager, most judges will accept photographs if the person who took them swears says the image on the photograph is the same as that seen through the lens of the camera at that time and place, and was printed out by the photographer on his or employers computer.

Yes we all know about Photoshop. In fact with the use of photocopiers any document can be altered. However making such an allegation in court against a witness without being able to back it up can attract a lot of criticism from the judge.

Mena · 23-07-2009 3:07pm

Victor wrote: »

It is generally considered fair game if you can remove it without damaging it.

Damaging it may be criminal damage.

As the fee is usually for clamp removal, it is also generally considered that the fee won't apply if you remove it yourself.

While I accept that, what right did said clamper have to tamper with the vehicle in the first place?

Also,

Can I just willy nilly clamp all the cars in my estate, or any estate and then either charge X to have them removed or have the people up in court should they damage my clamps?

Victor · 23-07-2009 3:23pm

Mena wrote: »

While I accept that, what right did said clamper have to tamper with the vehicle in the first place?

What right did the car driver have to trespass?

eth0_ · 23-07-2009 3:27pm

Clamping is perfectly legal in Ireland. ANYONE can set themselves up as a clamping company - you could buy a clamp in Argos and start your own business tomorrow. Do you honestly think it would still be happening if it were not?

Some countries have outlawed private clamping. In Scotland, you can legally only be clamped if you have no tax on your vehicle or are parked illegally - this is done by the DVLA and the council.

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 3:30pm

Courts here have ruled private clamping to be illegal. Ask Judge Hartnett.

#15 · 23-07-2009 3:47pm

Victor wrote: »

They take photos when they clamp you.

But, what if the car owner was to remove the clamp, leave it on the ground, and drive home? (therefore not stealing the clamp).

But if the clamp gets stolen by someone else before the clamping company come to collect it, is the car owner liable? Wouldn't the company have to prove the car owner stole it? Surely the photo would not be sufficient proof?

Basically, it comes down to this. Could someone (legally) remove the clamp without damaging it, leave it on the ground and drive home? They would not be legally liable for any fine???

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 3:58pm

#15 wrote: »

But, what if the car owner was to remove the clamp, leave it on the ground, and drive home? (therefore not stealing the clamp).

But if the clamp gets stolen by someone else before the clamping company come to collect it, is the car owner liable? Wouldn't the company have to prove the car owner stole it? Surely the photo would not be sufficient proof?

They would have an impossible task in a criminal court. They would not be able to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.
I would in that situation take the clamp with you and return it to the company asap. That would scupper any theft charges.

#15 wrote: »

Basically, it comes down to this. Could someone (legally) remove the clamp without damaging it, leave it on the ground and drive home? They would not be legally liable for any fine???

Pretty much, but see above about returning the clamp.

eth0_ · 23-07-2009 4:05pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Courts here have ruled private clamping to be illegal. Ask Judge Hartnett.

How can one judge change the law?

If that were true, why is there still private clamping going on...such as the crowd who clamp at Iarnrod Eireann stations?

WillieCocker · 23-07-2009 4:10pm

As someone said in another thread, remove said clamp, call clampers to say you will pay , when they arrive point at the clamp, removed from said vehicle, then drive off.

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 4:16pm

No one is challenging them in the courts that is the problem.

Private clamping is subject to the civil law and specifically contract law. I am sure if a case did get to a superior court the clampers will be having some restless nights.

If a case did get to court it would come down to whether the victim agreed to be clamped or not. The clampers would have to show that the driver did see the signs and had agreed to the terms of the contract. Also any release fee would have to be reasonable. The leading case is Wine vs LB Waltham Forest.

eth0_ · 23-07-2009 4:16pm

WillieCocker wrote: »

As someone said in another thread, remove said clamp, call clampers to say you will pay , when they arrive point at the clamp, removed from said vehicle, then drive off.

Except you have to pay over the phone before they'll come out to remove the clamp. I've never heard of clampers taking cash payments.

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 4:17pm

I've never heard of clampers taking cash payments.

LOL! 99% of private clampers only accept cash.
Cheques can be stopped and credit cards can be charged back.

eth0_ · 23-07-2009 4:22pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

LOL! 99% of private clampers only accept cash.

Oh! I've only ever been clamped once (in Dublin) and it was card payments only.

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 4:24pm

Clampers operating under the authority of the state accept only cards. They are covered under statute law. The cowboys are most certainly not.

It is important to distinguish between clampers working for the city councils and private clampers working for themselves.

Victor · 23-07-2009 4:55pm

eth0_ wrote: »

How can one judge change the law?

Its called precedent.

If that were true, why is there still private clamping going on...such as the crowd who clamp at Iarnrod Eireann stations?

Slightly different situation as CIÉ/IÉ have bye-laws.

Ashlinggnilsia · 23-07-2009 6:31pm

There is usually a reason for being calmed they dont just clam any car they see!! Usually for being parked illegally!! Again though if you can get the clamp off without damaging your car or their clamp they cant do anything about it i dont think!! Plus if you saw yourself as somewhat of a regular to gettin clamps itd probly be cheaper to go and get alloys i think it is.. Its either alloys or geeps they cant clamp!! Something about the way the wheel is that the clamp doesnt sit on them right blah blah blah!! I see your frustration though they are fair rotten they come to my college and clamp people while they are at class if you 10 15 minutes late you have no chance of getting a parking spot so you have to make the decision pay 80 to go to class or miss the class and save 80!!

sdanseo · 23-07-2009 6:37pm

Remember that when you enter a carpark where clamping in place there will always be a very large sign at the entrance encouraging you to pay your way. The wording will be something along the lines of "it is a condition of entry that you accept these regualtions" or "by entering these premesis it is understood that you acept and agree to be bound by..." etc.

Perfectly legal, as stated above its simple contract law. If there was no sign, then certainly there are no legal grounds whatsoever for clamping and every legal right to remove it yourself provided it is not damaged.

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 6:40pm

There may be grounds for challenge, that clamping is a trespass against your car and is a disproportionate response to the parking. Also if I put up a sign saying release fee €500, would that be legal? I would think not.

Also there is no such thing as illegal parking on private land.

Ashlinggnilsia · 23-07-2009 6:46pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

There may be grounds for challenge, that clamping is a trespass against your car and is a disproportionate response to the parking. Also if I put up a sign saying release fee €500, would that be legal? I would think not.

Also there is no such thing as illegal parking on private land.

He said private parking in places such as shopping centers, aparentments etc, if they have double yellow lines etc which they do have in shopping centres etc its still illegal in the sense of "you cant park here dingbat" places such as that get clampers to come in because they dont want people parking ontop of the buildings or loading bays. Plus some car parks though they may seem as though they belong to apartments do not!!

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 6:49pm

Ah Christ.

Double yellow lines on private land have no force in law. They are merely a suggestion.

Ashlinggnilsia · 23-07-2009 6:52pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

Ah Christ.

Double yellow lines on private land have no force in law. They are merely a suggestion.

Calm yourself jaysus i said double yellow lines on private land meaning "dont park here" everyone knows not to park on double yellow lines all im sayin is that if you park on em you cant be suprised!! And your just nit pickin now !

Our man in Havana · 23-07-2009 6:55pm

Are you legally qualified? Where does it say double yellow lines mean anything expect on a public road?

As for private clampers, I find an angle grinder deals with them effectively.

Ashlinggnilsia · 23-07-2009 7:00pm

Well if you are parking on private property to begin with you need the owners permission to park there so i would guess that if they are designating spots for you to park in and they have put down double yellow lines they clearly dont want you parking there, its their property so if they want to get clampers to clam you they can after all it is their own PRIVATE property. And inrelation to to your question on whether i am qualified as what? A solicitor? Barrister because if that is what your hinting at no I'm not and i dont see what that matters because boards and in particular this section is to express opinion and NOT as stated in the RULES give legal advice!

eth0_ · 23-07-2009 8:12pm

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

they come to my college and clamp people while they are at class if you 10 15 minutes late you have no chance of getting a parking spot so you have to make the decision pay 80 to go to class or miss the class and save 80!!

I'm sure most of those students don't NEED to drive to college. When I was at college just a few years ago, hardly any students drove in.

eth0_ · 23-07-2009 8:15pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

As for private clampers, I find an angle grinder deals with them effectively.

Have you ever actually used an angle grinder to remove a clamp?
If so, what were the consequences?

siobhank · 23-07-2009 8:16pm

I wish someone would challenge them in the courts. I think the principle of them is disgraceful.

Car clamping. Legal??

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