Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging

KCross · 13-09-2017 3:45pm

I found this interesting:

Uses Solar PV, battery storage (Powerwall in this case), Cloud based software with data analytics (from the grid, weather forecasts, charge state etc) and mashes it all together to get the best outcome for the consumer and the grid by remotely controlling the consumers battery (soak up cheap electricity based on realtime market price or release it).

All sounds impressive if it works and it has a Cork connection so it has to be good!

I presume it depends to some degree on a Feed In Tariff to make it financially viable. Must check into that a bit more but it is certainly a good insight to how the system should work and since this is a system on the ground already working its not just vapourware.

antoinolachtnai · 13-09-2017 4:01pm

Yes, this is the sort of thing you need, and at scale. It does depend on smart meters as a fundamental building block.

A feed-in tariff is not quite the same as being paid market rate for your electricity. (A feed-in tariff is much more than being paid for your electricity, it is a price guarantee). A system like this does need the latter, but it doesn't necessarily need the former.

unkel · 13-09-2017 5:36pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

We have surplus renewables at various times of the day and year. Part of the idea of smart metering is to allow those surpluses to be better utilised.

Exactly. Smart meters and some interface to give the user control over the use of their electricity.

Simple example. Let's say we keep our higher and lower rates, but we get an additional very cheap rate for when there is loads of overcapacity (wind at night) that would otherwise go to waste

Your EV is hooked up and would normally begin charging at the start of the lower rate. But instead it waits until the rate is even cheaper. If it hits the cheap rate, the car starts charging. If it looks like there is no cheap electricity that night, it will just start charging at some point based on charging speed, and percentage full needed at a given time.

So basically the EVs (and other household appliances) are programmed to make the most of the overcapacity or renewables (and relieving the grid at other times because of it)

Home battery use would be the same, but will be the preserve of hobbyists / ECO warriers with a big wallet for the foreseeable...

BoatMad · 15-09-2017 12:26pm

unkel wrote: »

Exactly. Smart meters and some interface to give the user control over the use of their electricity.

Simple example. Let's say we keep our higher and lower rates, but we get an additional very cheap rate for when there is loads of overcapacity (wind at night) that would otherwise go to waste

Your EV is hooked up and would normally begin charging at the start of the lower rate. But instead it waits until the rate is even cheaper. If it hits the cheap rate, the car starts charging. If it looks like there is no cheap electricity that night, it will just start charging at some point based on charging speed, and percentage full needed at a given time.

So basically the EVs (and other household appliances) are programmed to make the most of the overcapacity or renewables (and relieving the grid at other times because of it)

Home battery use would be the same, but will be the preserve of hobbyists / ECO warriers with a big wallet for the foreseeable...

it looks like there is no cheap electricity that night

just how you determine that and more importantly communicate it to the car , is in the realms of science fiction.

The current plan for smart meters is essentially a one way communication, tats whats defined . essentially the meter reports consumption throughout the day

what the generators want is to then charge MORE during high consumption periods , this is ToU tariffing. The idea being to push consumers towards periods when tariffs are lower ( the lower tariffs being fed to the user via web sites and information one their bill) , but its not really intended to provide users with forecasts of cheaper tarrifs, its more that the generators what the retail price to track the wholesale price

Its not perceived that consumers can " game " the system , and track intended cheaper periods

BoatMad · 15-09-2017 12:44pm

But instead it waits until the rate is even cheaper. If it hits the cheap rate, the car starts charging.

The likelihood is that as battery size increases and current available from a house is unlikely to increase in the near or immediate future, therefore the car will need too start charging immediately the user plugs it in as worst then costing you more , is the car isnt ready at 7am in the morning ! Hence the ability to pick and choose tariffs is likely to be extremely restrictive

bk · 15-09-2017 4:54pm

BoatMad wrote: »

just how you determine that and more importantly communicate it to the car , is in the realms of science fiction.

What?! I'm sorry, no it isn't, it is pretty trivial!

The plan for smart meters is that they will communicate the current usage in real time to the energy providers servers. The servers will store the data.

The customers will be able to access their energy providers servers to see their current usage and how much they are paying for it.

The customer can also have smart devices (EV's, washing machines) etc. that interface with the same data and adjust their usage based on the current pricing.

This really isn't science fiction, it really is very easy to do, specially in EV's which have to have relatively sophisticated computers anyway and usually connect to your wifi or 4G network anyway (how the apps work for controlling charging, heat etc.).

As for how this works for the consumer, they will be able to pick from a range of plans. A fix 24/7 per unit cost as most people currently do, a night rate type charge like most EV users currently do or a more dynamic pricing scheme that more closely follows the wholesale charging rates in either 15/30 minute blocks.

Smart meters open up a whole range of possibilities which aren't currently possible with standard meters.

unkel · 15-09-2017 5:36pm

bk wrote: »

The customer can also have smart devices (EV's, washing machines) etc. that interface with the same data and adjust their usage based on the current pricing.

Exactly. That's the whole point about smart meters!

Incentivise people to use electricity cheaply when there is an abundance. And force a premium price onto people when electricity is scarce.

ted1 · 17-09-2017 10:59am

unkel wrote: »

bk wrote: »

The customer can also have smart devices (EV's, washing machines) etc. that interface with the same data and adjust their usage based on the current pricing.

Exactly. That's the whole point about smart meters!

Incentivise people to use electricity cheaply when there is an abundance. And force a premium price onto people when electricity is scarce.

Dimplexs quantum system is designed around this. Basically it's a tirade heater that rather than using night rates, get a signal to store throughout the day when electricity is available
http://www.glendimplex.com/news/view/glen_dimplex_group_launches_revolutionary_quantum_heating_system

aliveandkicking · 21-09-2017 1:10pm

Smart Meters for everyone by 2024. Good news for EV owners and those with Solar PV/Powerwall.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/12bn-plan-for-smart-gas-and-electricity-meters-to-be-installed-in-every-household-36154062.html

Sleeper12 · 21-09-2017 1:17pm

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Smart Meters for everyone by 2024. Good news for EV owners and those with Solar PV/Powerwall.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/12bn-plan-for-smart-gas-and-electricity-meters-to-be-installed-in-every-household-36154062.html

I saw it this morning. It doesn't mention solar pv and it doesn't mention being able to top up at the shop/ pay as you go. Hopefully we'll get both

Water John · 21-09-2017 1:39pm

I studied Renewable Energy, nearly 20 years ago and smart meters were just around the corner!!! Still waiting.

bk · 21-09-2017 2:18pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I saw it this morning. It doesn't mention solar pv and it doesn't mention being able to top up at the shop/ pay as you go. Hopefully we'll get both

The Document released on the CER website specially mentions Smart PAYG, to come in phase 2, in 2021.

I'm not sure about Solar PV, but it does mention:

It also facilities new types of tariffs, including for demand customers who also have micro-generation.

http://www.cer.ie/docs/001021/CER17279 NSMP Info Note.pdf

KCross · 21-09-2017 5:52pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not sure about Solar PV, but it does mention:
It also facilities new types of tariffs, including for demand customers who also have micro-generation.

Any idea what that actually means in practice? It mentions micro generation but not how it integrates with it!

Is it just new tariffs that will account for the fact that Solar PV is mainly around midday hours?
Example, its not to facilitate FiT is it?

BoatMad · 22-09-2017 2:33pm

KCross wrote: »

Any idea what that actually means in practice? It mentions micro generation but not how it integrates with it!

Is it just new tariffs that will account for the fact that Solar PV is mainly around midday hours?
Example, its not to facilitate FiT is it?

No it's not TSO does not want fit

antoinolachtnai · 22-09-2017 11:12pm

There are two things:

1. being paid for your electricity on the basis of what the market will pay for it.

2. being paid for your electricity on the basis of a pre-set tariff determined by the government.

A FIT is no. 2.

No. 1 inolves getting a payment, but it is not a FIT.

You could have 1 without 2.

BoatMad · 23-09-2017 5:32pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There are two things:

1. being paid for your electricity on the basis of what the market will pay for it.

2. being paid for your electricity on the basis of a pre-set tariff determined by the government.

A FIT is no. 2.

No. 1 inolves getting a payment, but it is not a FIT.

You could have 1 without 2.

You forget the big picture 209 million in fines for missing co2 targets and that's the first year.

antoinolachtnai · 23-09-2017 5:48pm

What does that have to do with it except in the broadest general terms?

BoatMad · 24-09-2017 1:42am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What does that have to do with it except in the broadest general terms?

Fair bit of subsidy in 200 million

BoatMad · 24-09-2017 1:45am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There are two things:

1. being paid for your electricity on the basis of what the market will pay for it.

2. being paid for your electricity on the basis of a pre-set tariff determined by the government.

A FIT is no. 2.

No. 1 inolves getting a payment, but it is not a FIT.

You could have 1 without 2.

MicrgeneratioN FIT rebates at comparable generator levels would be peanuts

FIT exists in other countries to encourage solar PV use to promote " green ideas " etc

It's nothing to do with economics of generation.

ednwireland · 24-09-2017 9:45pm

dont know if this is the right place to raise this but they were talking about smart meter installation and the effect of EV charging.
the guy in the interview said the grid could cope with 20000 cars and this was adequate for the near future, there was 146000 cars sold last year in ireland so if EV's take off that figure could be hit in an instant.

or am i missing something ?

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F21238331%5F172%5F23%2D09%2D2017%5F

8 mins in

ted1 · 24-09-2017 11:18pm

ednwireland wrote: »

dont know if this is the right place to raise this but they were talking about smart meter installation and the effect of EV charging.
the guy in the interview said the grid could cope with 20000 cars and this was adequate for the near future, there was 146000 cars sold last year in ireland so if EV's take off that figure could be hit in an instant.

or am i missing something ?

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F21238331%5F172%5F23%2D09%2D2017%5F

8 mins in

Say 20,000 cars charging at 10kw, that’s only 200MW of capacity. Hardly a huge draw on the grid. The difference between night baseload and day is 4GW or 4000MW
As cars charge at night that means without adding extra supply and having all cars charging at the same time the grid could take 400,000 EVs tomorrow.

But you won’t get all the cars charging and with smart meters you could stagger the charging by load shifting so you could reach close to 1,000,000 cars

ted1 · 24-09-2017 11:21pm

Now some sections of the grid may have issue like a small town that’s feed of a 38 Kv line that has a large bit of Plant like a polymer factory that’s loading the line

antoinolachtnai · 24-09-2017 11:31pm

If the cars all go 15 km a day, it is going to add up to 2.5kWh/day/car. It is a lot, the same as everyone using an electric shower for 10 minutes a day or so, but it is by no means unmanageable.

If everybody decides to charge their car at exactly the same time, then of course, that will cause major difficulties.

Water John · 24-09-2017 11:48pm

EVs are an opportunity for the grid. Great use of night time generation and an energy storage option.

BoatMad · 25-09-2017 6:52pm

But you won’t get all the cars charging and with smart meters you could stagger the charging by load shifting so you could reach close to 1,000,000 cars

smart meters can no connection to control your supply, the only way they can " load shift " is by the indirect method of tarrif structures, which si not an instantaneous process.

antoinolachtnai · 25-09-2017 7:12pm

You can put a schedule on there to control a relay which switches off when electricity is at a high price if you want. Or you can control a rely using signals over a different network.

BoatMad · 25-09-2017 7:26pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can put a schedule on there to control a relay which switches off when electricity is at a high price if you want. Or you can control a rely using signals over a different network.

The smart meters being installed here , contain GSM data units , These units make a few reports a day on consumption usually about every 30 minutes

There is no " back channel ". It would be impossible for the Grid to remotely activate some or parts of a domestic system, The Grid has NO idea what you are using that for and deliberate switching off would result in lawsuits etc

remember heres what you stated

But you won’t get all the cars charging and with smart meters you could stagger the charging by load shifting so you could reach close to 1,000,000 cars

Users can of course " voluntarily "choses to switch systems on and off to maximise tariffing , BUT They cant be " forced " to do so once that remain within their MIC.

SO you cant " stagger " EV charging unless the user agrees to it

I made this point to the CER and Esb networks , The grid will have to be expanded to met the demands of EV charging " end of story "

antoinolachtnai · 25-09-2017 8:08pm

No one is talking about forcing anybody to do anything. If you don't want the benefit of a schedule which will facilitate cheaper electricity consumption, you don't need to opt into it.

But realistically, if you want to draw 10's of amps during the peak time, you are going to have to accept that you are going to pay a premium. If the distribution network and transmission network are under pressure, you might expect to pay quite a high scarcity or capacity charge.

The likely price of electricity is known from the day-ahead market. You can schedule it the day before.

The meter company can send signals as the day goes on, if they want to.

BoatMad · 25-09-2017 10:52pm

The meter company can send signals as the day goes on, if they want to.

send signals to whom, all so called smart meters do ( and the smart meter details are known ) is report via the GSM network your consumption

( interestingly as to how they'll work where you have no mobile coverage , like my house !)

But realistically, if you want to draw 10's of amps during the peak time, you are going to have to accept that you are going to pay a premium

again once you stay within the MIC, esb have NO idea what you are doing with the electrons. Yes they can impose different tariffs, but realistically people will react to very large increases in day time electricity . Hence the room for manoeuvre is relatively limited

The likely price of electricity is known from the day-ahead market. You can schedule it the day before.

Not at a retail level, it remains to be seen how actually demand tariffs will play out, people like predictability, all the CER have stated is that it will cost 5.50 on your bill , it will NOT be mandatory for the first 2 years and that a " potential " saving of 20 euros " might " be possible per annum

My own view is that initially it simply be a scheme that essentially gives everyone a night tarrif to try and convert more people to using electricity later in the day. Day night meters have not proven to be popular

The main advantage of smart meters is two fold

(a) a reduction in staff costs associated with reading it
(b) an option giving every consumer access to night rate type tariffs as the grid has too much night time capacity at present

I dont see any situation where wholesale generation bid/spot costs are translated into retail spot type pricing

antoinolachtnai · 25-09-2017 10:59pm

BoatMad wrote: »

send signals to whom, all so called smart meters do ( and the smart meter details are known ) is report via the GSM network your consumption

What models of smart meter are you familiar with? Have you read the SMETS2 spec?

I dont see any situation where wholesale generation bid/spot costs are translated into retail spot type pricing

You think there is absolutely no chance of anything even vaguely like this occurring?

There is spare capacity at various times of the day, not just at night.

Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging

Comments