Rumen Fluke Treatment

greysides · 24-10-2012 9:31am

Rumen fluke has been a real problem in some areas. Before this year the worse year seems to have been the winter of 2010. Many people in every area will have dosed for RF then. Asking and listening to experiences of results from that year may well be a guide as to what to do this year.

At the end of the day it is important that worms and liver fluke are taken care of. RF then becomes an additional fluke dose if used. You could even see it as moping up the remnants of 'resistant' fluke from the previous fluke dose...............

joejobrien · 24-10-2012 9:56am

Black Smoke wrote: »

All this willy, nilly, blanket dosing for rumen fluke, when and where the problem does not exist, will lead to serious problems in future. Resistance to the drugs.
There are whole districts in UK where sheep can no longer be reared, due to resistance to fluke and worm drenches, born out of bad treatment practices, through the years. It's estimated, these lands will never again be suitable for sheep. Same issue arising in Australia and NZ.

All these weekend vets on Boards, would want to be taken with a large grain of salt!

With respect unless one has experienced proplems with rumen fluke, very few are in a position to comment with some degree of authority.:D
I do agree resistance will become an issue, but what is the alternative..????
This is not bad practice, when one has clear information.
To suggest that "all these weekend vets on boards, would want to taken with a large grain of salt" is short sighted . Some have experienced proplems, and are only sharing there experience and solutions with fellow farmers.
Good mangement will insure that what ever worms are present after the dreadful wet year, will be successfully treated.
Longer term, lets hope that research will have devoloped ANOTHER treatment for RF.. but in the meantime lets look after the animals welfare, shall we???

pakalasa · 24-10-2012 10:19am

All advice giving on this forum should be taken with a degree of salt, but in a way it's no different to meeting someone at the mart etc and they telling you about the really bad doing they are after getting with such and such. If you had cattle die from rumen fluke, wouldn't you like to warn your neighbours.
Question - Can older cattle build up a resistance to rumen fluke. I've only ever seen it at home with younger adult cattle.

joejobrien · 24-10-2012 11:29am

pakalasa wrote: »

All advice giving on this forum should be taken with a degree of salt, but in a way it's no different to meeting someone at the mart etc and they telling you about the really bad doing they are after getting with such and such. If you had cattle die from rumen fluke, wouldn't you like to warn your neighbours.
Question - Can older cattle build up a resistance to rumen fluke. I've only ever seen it at home with younger adult cattle.

Unsure if they can become resistant to R.F..
However IMO they are less vunerable unlike young stock , they tend to come under pressure more quickly, and the lower the resistance the more they run into trouble.
I certainly know that heavy cull cow sent to factory carried a heavy burden even though they never show the clinical signs This is MY experience.

just do it · 24-10-2012 12:53pm

richie123 wrote: »

ya true sure maybe we should only treat animals that are showing clinical signs..theres no real proper answer to this whole debate.

Last night I was interested to read the vet's article in last week's journal on rumen fluke. He mentioned that there are diagnostic tests being developed at the moment. He also makes the point that it's in a particularly wet year that you'll have problems refering back to 2009. Coccidiosis is another thing that a lot of lads are having trouble with around me this year.

just do it · 24-10-2012 12:58pm

greysides wrote: »

Rumen fluke has been a real problem in some areas. Before this year the worse year seems to have been the winter of 2010. Many people in every area will have dosed for RF then. Asking and listening to experiences of results from that year may well be a guide as to what to do this year.

At the end of the day it is important that worms and liver fluke are taken care of. RF then becomes an additional fluke dose if used. You could even see it as moping up the remnants of 'resistant' fluke from the previous fluke dose...............

Hi Greysides

Any idea regarding the improved diagnostics for rumen fluke that was referred to in the Journal last week?

greysides · 24-10-2012 1:55pm

just do it wrote: »

Hi Greysides

Any idea regarding the improved diagnostics for rumen fluke that was referred to in the Journal last week?

Nope.

Regarding immunity, I believe there is a build up of immunity among older animals but how complete it would be is another thing. Immunity is generally a 'relative', rather than an 'absolute' feature.

barryoc1 · 24-10-2012 2:05pm

greysides wrote: »

Rumen fluke has been a real problem in some areas. Before this year the worse year seems to have been the winter of 2010. Many people in every area will have dosed for RF then. Asking and listening to experiences of results from that year may well be a guide as to what to do this year.

At the end of the day it is important that worms and liver fluke are taken care of. RF then becomes an additional fluke dose if used. You could even see it as moping up the remnants of 'resistant' fluke from the previous fluke dose...............

After reading the data sheets for a few of the different doses and from reading this thread i am now thinking it might be better to do calves with Levafas Diamond this weekend. My understanding is this will do most flukes, i presume that includes Rumen Fluke, and it will also cover worms. Your thoughts greatly appreciated.
Was going to use Zanil but doesnt cover worms.

greysides · 24-10-2012 5:04pm

Levafas Diamond contains levamisole and oxyclozanide. Zanil only has the flukicide and no levamisole.

Levamisole hits nematodes and is fine as a summer dose where type II (inhibited) worms are not a necessary target. However, at this time of the year they need to be hit or they will 'awaken' and cause problems in the Spring. So, that part of the product is not suitable.

Oxyclozanide gets trematodes/fluke, so it hits both liver fluke and stomach fluke.
With liver fluke it will only be effective against adult fluke- about 12 weeks in the animal and residing in the bile ducts. Depending on the timing of dosing, it could be considered as marginally better than water (IMO).
With stomach fluke it is effective against both immatures in the gut and adults in the rumen.

Basically were it not for it's activity against stomach fluke it could be discounted as a winter dose.

However, it's recommended dosage rate gives the animal more oxyclozanide than the Zanil rate (15ml/kg v. 10mg/kg) and this would be no harm for the elimination of Stomach fluke.

But it leaves us in the awkward situation of needing three different active substances to adequately cover the range of parasites.

Up until recently there were no single products on the market that would properly cover Liver fluke and worms at housing. I would have recommended using separate doses for each, choosing the dose by what best suited the target parasite.

Now with combinations of ivermectin/closantel and moxidectin/triclabendazole available this is no longer the case. However, even these combinations do not cover Stomach fluke.
So, you are still left with having to separately cover it.

The hawlk · 24-10-2012 11:22pm

I am afraid people are getting carried away with all this rumen fluke talk I have some of the wettest land in Ireland and I never dosed for it yet I have seen no cases of rumen on our farm ever

manjou · 25-10-2012 7:47am

How did people manage before they came up with doseing stuff.For hundreds of years they farmed cattle and survived without doses.All could not have died from fluke and worms. Often wondered have we lost something on the management side of parisite control since all we have to do is inject or dose when we think there is a problem.Maybe livestock were more resistant.Just often wondered.

whelan1 · 25-10-2012 8:41am

manjou wrote: »

How did people manage before they came up with doseing stuff.For hundreds of years they farmed cattle and survived without doses.All could not have died from fluke and worms. Often wondered have we lost something on the management side of parisite control since all we have to do is inject or dose when we think there is a problem.Maybe livestock were more resistant.Just often wondered.

but sure zanil is out this years

greysides · 25-10-2012 9:38am

manjou wrote: »

How did people manage before they came up with doseing stuff

Animal farming was less intensive so less of a build up.

And when they were affected badly animals died.

At least on some farms, it was expected that not all weanlings would make it through the summer.

Black Smoke · 25-10-2012 9:50am

The hawlk wrote: »

I am afraid people are getting carried away with all this rumen fluke talk I have some of the wettest land in Ireland and I never dosed for it yet I have seen no cases of rumen on our farm ever

I'd say you are bang on the money:P

pakalasa · 25-10-2012 10:12am

The hawlk wrote: »

I am afraid people are getting carried away with all this rumen fluke talk I have some of the wettest land in Ireland and I never dosed for it yet I have seen no cases of rumen on our farm ever

I thought it was a waste of money too, untill I had an animal waste away with it this year. People have had animals die from confirmed cases of this, so it is out there.

joejobrien · 25-10-2012 11:34am

The hawlk wrote: »

I am afraid people are getting carried away with all this rumen fluke talk I have some of the wettest land in Ireland and I never dosed for it yet I have seen no cases of rumen on our farm ever

Your lucky if you havent. IMO the farming system,SR, buildup, etc are various factor that can be at work, ie long/short term production, land types rotation etc. You may have subclinical levels without knowing.Tests/ FC done on your herd? When one looses an animal(s) this can often be the first indication of a proplem. I would not agree that people are getting carried away with RF.
Talk to some of the LABS with reference to RF.
However I wish you continued success at your farming.:)

reilig · 25-10-2012 8:49pm

Dosing for rumen fluke to prevent the death of an animal is worst case scenario IMO. Its only in extreme cases that an animal will die - if an animal wastes away to nothing then it it probably too late to be dosing it - they may never recover.

I never dosed for rumen fluke until this year. I only did it on the advice of my vet who spoke to a group at the BTAP walk on my farm and he advised that every dung sample that he tested in this area from similar type of land to mine showed very high levels of Rumen fluke. He advised that there was a low risk of any animal dying from rumen fluke, but advised anyone with similar land to mine (Heavy wet land) that it would be in their interest to dose.

So why dose?

Basically you need to speak to your vet. If you need to test, then your vet can do it for you. If your vet is very familiar with your area then he might advise you, like mine did, to dose without testing.

I am glad that I dosed. I can see a very noticable increased thrive in all animals - both cows and weinlings. Animals have a much shinier coat. Dung isn't watery and scoured. Weinlings have done much better and I am very happy with the results.

So in this day and age when margins are tight and inputs are expensive, I feel that dosing was an economical choice. It gave me an edge over farmers who didn't dose - the meal, silage and straw that I am feeding my animals is going onto their backs instead of fattening rumen in their stomach.

In short, 99.9% of the losses caused by rumen fluke is unseen as only rarely will an animal waste away or die because of it.

poor farmer · 25-10-2012 9:14pm

reilig wrote: »

Dosing for rumen fluke to prevent the death of an animal is worst case scenario IMO. Its only in extreme cases that an animal will die - if an animal wastes away to nothing then it it probably too late to be dosing it - they may never recover.

I never dosed for rumen fluke until this year. I only did it on the advice of my vet who spoke to a group at the BTAP walk on my farm and he advised that every dung sample that he tested in this area from similar type of land to mine showed very high levels of Rumen fluke. He advised that there was a low risk of any animal dying from rumen fluke, but advised anyone with similar land to mine (Heavy wet land) that it would be in their interest to dose.

So why dose?

Basically you need to speak to your vet. If you need to test, then your vet can do it for you. If your vet is very familiar with your area then he might advise you, like mine did, to dose without testing.

I am glad that I dosed. I can see a very noticable increased thrive in all animals - both cows and weinlings. Animals have a much shinier coat. Dung isn't watery and scoured. Weinlings have done much better and I am very happy with the results.

So in this day and age when margins are tight and inputs are expensive, I feel that dosing was an economical choice. It gave me an edge over farmers who didn't dose - the meal, silage and straw that I am feeding my animals is going onto their backs instead of fattening rumen in their stomach.

In short, 99.9% of the losses caused by rumen fluke is unseen as only rarely will an animal waste away or die because of it.

My understanding of the test for rumen fluke is that the test results only indicate, whether there is ,or not, a presence of rumen fluke in the sample.
It gives no indication as to the level of infection.

reilig · 25-10-2012 9:24pm

poor farmer wrote: »

My understanding of the test for rumen fluke is that the test results only indicate, whether there is ,or not, a presence of rumen fluke in the sample.
It gives no indication as to the level of infection.

Animals
grazing on pasture that is heavily contaminated with rumen fluke larval cysts will usually have all ages of
rumen flukes in their digestive tracts, and thus have an egg count. In very severe cases observed by the Irish
Regional Veterinary Laboratories, large numbers of immature rumen flukes have been found in the faeces.

From the AHI document linked in previous posts.

The sentence in bold suggests that the fluke egg count found in the dung is directly linked to the level of infection.

just do it · 25-10-2012 10:09pm

poor farmer wrote: »

My understanding of the test for rumen fluke is that the test results only indicate, whether there is ,or not, a presence of rumen fluke in the sample.
It gives no indication as to the level of infection.

reilig wrote: »

From the AHI document linked in previous posts.

The sentence in bold suggests that the fluke egg count found in the dung is directly linked to the level of infection.

Lads, ye're both right!
You can expect normal animals to have rumen fluke eggs in their faeces. Where there is a chronic heavy infestation you can get a large burden of rumen fluke eggs. This may indicate subclinical infestation which can lead to some lack of thrive.In acute severe cases where you get a large enough build up of immature rumen fluke in the gut you can get large numbers of immature rumen flukes (i.e. flukes themselves, not eggs laid by mature flukes) in the faeces.

eddiek · 25-10-2012 11:06pm

what did ya dose them with reilig and what do ya dose for worms with?thanks.

greysides · 26-10-2012 12:14am

Given that while Rumen fluke are not a new parasite to Ireland, by any stretch of the imagination, but ARE new in causing disease, we are all learning about them. Sometimes the hard way. Building up the ground swell of experience that already exists for Liver fluke and other diseases............

I would say that the most likely parasite to kill an animal at the moment, would be Rumen fluke. Because it can, and has.

bob charles · 26-10-2012 12:57am

greysides wrote: »

Given that while Rumen fluke are not a new parasite to Ireland, by any stretch of the imagination, but ARE new in causing disease, we are all learning about them. Sometimes the hard way. Building up the ground swell of experience that already exists for Liver fluke and other diseases............

I would say that the most likely parasite to kill an animal at the moment, would be Rumen fluke. Because it can, and has.

most definitely agree, allot of misinformation in the pages of this thread, I will also say in my own case on dry limestone land that lungworms next in line of importance in the fight against respiratory diseases.

poor farmer · 26-10-2012 12:23pm

Should I dose this years calves for rumen fluke.
The are mostly friesans born feb mar apr
I have lots of heavy and some flooded land

greysides · 26-10-2012 1:53pm

poor farmer wrote: »

Should I dose this years calves for rumen fluke.
The are mostly friesans born feb mar apr
I have lots of heavy and some flooded land

General Options:

1. Yes, if epidemiological factors are known to be present.

2. Yes, if faecal samples are positive for eggs.

3. Yes, if after normal dosing animals continue to show signs attributable to RF.

4. Yes, if happier to do it than be left to worry about it despite no immediately obvious compelling reason.

5. Any combination of the above.

6. No.

IMO, you fit into group 1.

limo_100 · 26-10-2012 5:37pm

if dosing weanlings with leavafas diamond would they need to be giving ivomec as well or will the leavafas cover worns as well as fluke??

greysides · 26-10-2012 6:16pm

...

Levafas Diamond contains levamisole and oxyclozanide. Zanil only has the flukicide and no levamisole.

Levamisole hits nematodes and is fine as a summer dose where type II (inhibited) worms are not a necessary target. However, at this time of the year they need to be hit or they will 'awaken' and cause problems in the Spring. So, that part of the product is not suitable.

Oxyclozanide gets trematodes/fluke, so it hits both liver fluke and stomach fluke.
With liver fluke it will only be effective against adult fluke- about 12 weeks in the animal and residing in the bile ducts. Depending on the timing of dosing, it could be considered as marginally better than water (IMO).
With stomach fluke it is effective against both immatures in the gut and adults in the rumen.

Basically were it not for it's activity against stomach fluke it could be discounted as a winter dose.

However, it's recommended dosage rate gives the animal more oxyclozanide than the Zanil rate (15ml/kg v. 10mg/kg) and this would be no harm for the elimination of Stomach fluke.

But it leaves us in the awkward situation of needing three different active substances to adequately cover the range of parasites.

Up until recently there were no single products on the market that would properly cover Liver fluke and worms at housing. I would have recommended using separate doses for each, choosing the dose by what best suited the target parasite.

Now with combinations of ivermectin/closantel and moxidectin/triclabendazole available this is no longer the case. However, even these combinations do not cover Stomach fluke.
So, you are still left with having to separately cover it.

jocotty · 27-10-2012 10:26am

My brother did all his cattle with Zanil, after loosing the 14.

He is wondering when they will be due another dose for it?

He's not a man to worry too much, but have not seen him this worried in a long time!

Anyone got any ideas?

Jo

pakalasa · 27-10-2012 11:36am

14, Holy Cow! What did the Vet tell him to do?
What age, breeed were they?

jocotty · 27-10-2012 7:51pm

pakalasa wrote: »

14, Holy Cow! What did the Vet tell him to do?
What age, breeed were they?

Vets were no good. Told him it was lack of feedin, but he knew well they were only talkin sh#te. . . . So he gave up on d vets. Twas the lab that told him wat it was for the finish. I was at home again today, and they still dieing. Up to 16 now . . . But they new ones dieing just an after effect . . They were damaged some how it the fluke gone from them
. Never saw anything like it.
Yearlings. All breeds- friesans and b blues mostly. Awfull stuff.

Rumen Fluke Treatment

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