Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

Amirani · 17-05-2019 4:36pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is like the Cervical Check scandal - why the f*ck do we have to outsource all this sh!t to private companies in foreign countries? Do we not pour enough feckin' money into the HSE every year for them to be able to hire Irish scientists and run their own labs?

No, we don't is the answer. Would you like to spend more money to bring all this testing in-house within the HSE?

17-05-2019 4:36pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

At least have the respect to get Savitas name right before you make unfounded statements about the cause of her death.

No offence Susie (may I call you Susie?), not only are you taking the liberty of repeatedly calling her "Savita", you don't seem to know the facts of Savita Halappanavar's death yourself, whilst using her as part of an argument.

The woman is dead now and should be left to rest in peace, no longer a tool of either side. The circumstances of her controversial healthcare treatment are available online, as described in an unbiased way by external medical experts.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 4:36pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Did you read Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran's report? Because it identified three causal factors

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/media/pressrel/newsarchive/2013archive/jun13/savitareport.html

The Hospital was entitled to offer Savita Halappanavar an abortion. This was quite correctly not emphasised during the Repeal Campaign, because the Amendment did indirectly influence the decisionmaking at the hospital. But this nuance would have been confusing during a referendum, when a narrative has to be clear and concise.

At this stage though, seriously, read the report.

If the hospital were entitled to offer an abortion then why didn’t they?
They didn’t because of the grey area caused by the dodgy wording of the 8th. It made it unclear at what point the woman’s right to life outweighed that of the baby.
It was a dangerous law that caused confusion in emergencies and ultimately cost Savita her life.

I’ve read the reports.
The fact of the matter is that the pregnancy was doomed and if she was offered a termination when she requested one she wouldn’t have died.

Riskymove · 17-05-2019 4:37pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

The midwife herself admitted saying it.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/380613/

as you can see from what she said she believes her meaning was misunderstood

it was oft reported as a kind of malicious statement of refusal to act by the Nurse when she says she was just trying to explain why abortion was not allowed in Ireland in responding to what was said about India and Hinduism

17-05-2019 4:38pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

If the hospital were entitled to offer an abortion then why didn’t they?

Because they were negligent.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 4:41pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No offence Susie (may I call you Susie?), not only are you taking the liberty of repeatedly calling her "Savita", you don't seem to know the facts of Savita Halappanavar's death yourself, whilst using her as part of an argument.

The woman is dead now and should be left to rest in peace, no longer a tool of either side. The circumstances of her controversial healthcare treatment are available online, as described in an unbiased way by external medical experts.

No offense but it’s a bit patronizing that you taking issue with me calling her Savita, which is actually her name, yet completely bypassed a post in which someone referred to her as Sabina?

Here is an article where the professor who chaired the HSE enquiry into her death confirmed that the 8th had a hand in her death.
Maybe you should read up on the reports yourself.

The Eighth Amendment “played a major role” in the death of Savita Halappanavar during pregnancy, a leading international expert in obstetrics has said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/eighth-amendment-played-major-role-in-savita-s-death-1.3261037?mode=amp

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 4:43pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Because they were negligent.

They were negligent because the law created a legal grey area that was open to interpretation depending on the beliefs of the person reading it.
It tied the hands of medical professionals in an emergency and ultimately cost an innocent woman her life.

Shop40 · 17-05-2019 4:49pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

At least have the respect to get Savitas name right before you make unfounded statements about the cause of her death.

That was just autocorrect at work, I know Savita’s name. Not an unfounded statement.

17-05-2019 4:51pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

Here is an article where the professor who chaired the HSE enquiry into her death confirmed that the 8th had a hand in her death.
Maybe you should read up on the reports yourself.

I've been saying in practically every post that the 8th Amendment played a role.

But it was not a direct cause.

The cause of the death was negligence. It's all there in the official report, and the obstetrician in the case has also settled a case of medical negligence with Praveen Halappanavar.

The Referendum is over, everything turned out well in the end. But for God's sake just stop 'appropriating' someone else's story, to use the vernacular.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 4:52pm

Shop40 wrote: »

That was just autocorrect at work, I know Savita’s name. Not an unfounded statement.

According to the professor who chaired the enquiry into her death, that’s not the case.

Savita Halappanavar died as a direct result of Ireland’s abortion laws and not simply because she contracted sepsis, the author of the independent report into her death has said.

Asked specifically by Independent senator Lynn Ruane “if the presence of the Eighth Amendment cost Savita her life”, Prof Arulkumaran said: “It was very clear the things holding the hands of physicians was the legal issue. Anybody, any junior doctor, would have said this is a sepsis condition, we must terminate.

“She did have sepsis. However, if she had a termination in the first days as requested, she would not have had sepsis. We would never have heard of her and she would be alive today,” he said.

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/medic-savita-died-as-result-of-abortion-laws-461173.html

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 4:53pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I've been saying in practically every post that the 8th Amendment played a role.

But it was not a direct cause.

The cause of the death was negligence. It's all there in the official report, and the obstetrician in the case has also settled a case of medical negligence with Praveen Halappanavar.

The Referendum is over, everything turned out well in the end. But for God's sake just stop 'appropriating' someone else's story, to use the vernacular.

But surely you can agree that if she had been granted an abortion when she first requested one, when it was confirmed the baby wouldn’t survive, that she wouldn’t have developed sepsis and the negligence wouldn’t have occurred?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-05-2019 4:54pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

At least have the respect to get Savitas name right before you make unfounded statements about the cause of her death.

That’s probably a typo in fairness as ‘b’ and ‘v’ are next to each other on the QWERTY keyboard and they’ve only typed the name once.

Candamir · 17-05-2019 4:54pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Did you read Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran's report? Because it identified three causal factors

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/media/pressrel/newsarchive/2013archive/jun13/savitareport.html

The Hospital was entitled to offer Savita Halappanavar an abortion. This was quite correctly not emphasised during the Repeal Campaign, because the Amendment did indirectly influence the decisionmaking at the hospital. But this nuance would have been confusing during a referendum, when a narrative has to be clear and concise.

At this stage though, seriously, read the report.

This case has nothing to do with the 8th, and rehashing this woman’s death is in poor taste.

However, don’t distort the truth while you’re doing it.

Prof Arulkumaran was very clear that in his opinion the 8th directly contributed to her death.

He detailed it in the report, gave evidence of same st the Oireachtas hearing, and supported the repeal campaign on that basis.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/author-of-savita-halappanavar-report-says-8th-amendment-contributed-to-her-death-810432.html

“

Savita Halappanavar died as a direct result of Ireland's restrictive abortion laws and not simply because she contracted sepsis, the author of the independent report into her death has said.“

Charles Ingles · 17-05-2019 5:02pm

The poor parents they must be heartbroken, a beautiful perfectly normal baby deprived of life.
Please God they find some peace and get justice for their unborn child.

Odhinn · 17-05-2019 5:06pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is like the Cervical Check scandal - why the f*ck do we have to outsource all this sh!t to private companies in foreign countries? Do we not pour enough feckin' money into the HSE every year for them to be able to hire Irish scientists and run their own labs?

It's to keep things off the states books - outsource to a private company.

17-05-2019 5:08pm

Candamir wrote: »

This case has nothing to do with the 8th, and rehashing this woman’s death is in poor taste.

However, don’t distort the truth while you’re doing it.

Prof Arulkumaran was very clear that in his opinion the 8th directly contributed to her death.

Don't distort my words.

I've been clear all along that the 8th Amendment to the Constitution contributed to Savita Halappanavar's death.

I said the direct cause was medical negligence. Read the report. I don't know why this is controversial. It isn't a personal affront to anybody, or to the philosophical justification of abortion, to point out that Savita Halappanavar was legally entitled to one.

I am not the one taking a woman's death and using it for political purposes on an internet discussion board, long after those purposes have already been met. Yes, let's give her back some dignity now, and stop pulling her apart as if she's the possession of a political campaign.

It's sick.

hatrickpatrick · 17-05-2019 5:23pm

Amirani wrote: »

No, we don't is the answer. Would you like to spend more money to bring all this testing in-house within the HSE?

100%. This should not be being done by private, for-profit organisations - and it certainly shouldn't be being done outside the state, by organisations outside the state. The CervicalCheck scandal should have been evidence enough that the model was flawed.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 17-05-2019 5:24pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I've been saying in practically every post that the 8th Amendment played a role.

But it was not a direct cause.

The cause of the death was negligence. It's all there in the official report, and the obstetrician in the case has also settled a case of medical negligence with Praveen Halappanavar.

The Referendum is over, everything turned out well in the end. But for God's sake just stop 'appropriating' someone else's story, to use the vernacular.

The cause of death of sepsis if we're going down that rabbit hole.

Savita's parents made a statement supportive of repealing the 8th amendment and of her name and story being used, perhaps in response but certainly after the anti-repeal campaign continuously brazenly lied that her family did not wish her to be associated. Her story was appropriated, but not by the likes of Susie.

Saying the 8th didn't cause her death is like someone saying "this torrential rain destroyed my house" and someone just always has to pipe up "AAAACTUALLY, the flash flooding destroyed your house"

Atoms for Peace · 17-05-2019 5:27pm

Doctors and lab techs are not infallible, there is no 100% accurate test or diagnosis. From what I've seen do far the doctors acted in a professional manner with the info available on hand; but no doubt the courts won't see it this way, expect another huge payout.

hatrickpatrick · 17-05-2019 5:28pm

In fairness, the Halappanavar case is inexorably tied in with the 8th amendment because some complete and total pr!ck of a nurse told her "this is a Catholic country" when she requested an abortion. The fact that the non-existent separation of church and state in this country was linked to the case by one of the people directly involved is one of the reasons it justifiably became a flashpoint.

To tie a religion with the identity of a supposedly modern country in that manner is inevitably going to cause extreme anger, especially if it involves someone's death. We can debate until the cows come home whether an abortion would have helped her or not, but it's somewhat irrelevant. The fact remains that the reason given for denying her the medical choice she asked for was the (sadly somewhat accurate, and justifiably rage-inducing) suggestion that Ireland is a theocracy.

Candamir · 17-05-2019 5:30pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

100%. This should not be being done by private, for-profit organisations - and it certainly shouldn't be being done outside the state, by organisations outside the state. The CervicalCheck scandal should have been evidence enough that the model was flawed.

We don’t have the caseload required in this country to make doing the kind of tests required in this case here viable or even safe. Sometimes it’s better to outsource.
Afaik, there’s no suggestion that the lab errored. Outsourcing outrage is a red herring.

17-05-2019 5:31pm

Faith Helpful Rabble-rouser wrote: »

Saying the 8th didn't cause her death is like someone saying "this torrential rain destroyed my house" and someone just always has to pipe up "AAAACTUALLY, the flash flooding destroyed your house"

How many of the recommendations made by Sir Sabaratnam Arulkumaran, Professor of Gynaecology at St George's London, have been implemented?

Do you know *any* of the recommendations, apart from the one about clarifying the law on abortion?

You seem to think that I'm anti repeal. I'm not even going to try and argue that because it's so preposterous.

If you want to know how Savita Halappanavar came into this, read back in the thread.
Anyone who gives a damn about women was concerned about the lack of provision for abortion in Irish law, as there was, AND the serious shortfalls described in the report into Savita Halappanavar's death -- quite an extraordinary series of medical negligence shortcomings.

The woman is still being used in a political dogfight, despite abortion finally being liberalised, and nobody seems to care whether the direct causes of her death as described in the report have been addressed.

That does not do justice to Savita Halappanavar, or to any woman.

eviltwin · 17-05-2019 5:32pm

Those poor people

The guilt must be immense but they made the best decision they could at the time with the information they had.

It hurts me to see this personal tragedy being used to debate abortion, it's using this couple in a heartless way and I'd hoped we'd have a bit more empathy and compassion than that.

I do hope the inquest gives them answers and whatever happened never will happen again. My deepest sympathy and love to them both.

Sweet.Science · 17-05-2019 5:36pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

The poor parents they must be heartbroken, a beautiful perfectly normal baby deprived of life.
Please God they find some peace and get justice for their unborn child.

But a normal abortion is fine . Isn’t that baby also deprived of life ?

Looney lefties

Candamir · 17-05-2019 5:36pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Don't distort my words.

I've been clear all along that the 8th Amendment to the Constitution contributed to Savita Halappanavar's death.

I said the direct cause was medical negligence. Read the report. I don't know why this is controversial. It isn't a personal affront to anybody, or to the philosophical justification of abortion, to point out that Savita Halappanavar was legally entitled to one.

I am not the one taking a woman's death and using it for political purposes on an internet discussion board, long after those purposes have already been met. Yes, let's give her back some dignity now, and stop pulling her apart as if she's the possession of a political campaign.

It's sick.

No, you didn’t bring that case up - apologies as me quoting you does seem to infer that.

However, it’s untrue to say the 8th didn’t directly cause her death.

It is true that there we’re clinical errors. You’ll find multiples of those in any retrospective review of any case. That’s human nature.

No doctor was found to be negligent in this case. (A civil case was settled out of court) No doctor was censured by the medical council or any other body as a result of this case. Her Consultant’s case load was retrospectively reviewed after this case, and her standards of care were not found wanting.

It’s not quite as simple as “medical negligence”.

17-05-2019 5:42pm

Candamir wrote: »

No, you didn’t bring that case up - apologies as me quoting you does seem to infer that.

However, it’s untrue to say the 8th didn’t directly cause her death.

Look, I don't even care about the semantics. I'm just going by the report. But fine, lets ignore the report and call it a direct cause.

If people are genuinely concerned, then lobby to have the report fully implemented across the maternity services.

Read the recommendations of the report. How many have been implemented?

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/media/pressrel/newsarchive/2013archive/jun13/savitareport.html

Candamir · 17-05-2019 5:44pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Look, I don't even care about the semantics. I'm just going by the report. But fine, lets ignore the report and call it a direct cause.

If people are genuinely concerned, then lobby to have the report fully implemented across the maternity services.

Read the recommendations of the report. How many have been implemented?

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/media/pressrel/newsarchive/2013archive/jun13/savitareport.html

I’m not arguing on that point. Plenty of improvements to be made.

17-05-2019 5:46pm

Candamir wrote: »

I’m arguing on that point. Plenty of improvements to be made.

Not when people are implying that the medical negligence is just a whitewash, and that if you talk about those causes, you're some kind of Iona shill or anti-choice.

That totally discredits the report and its recommendations, and potentially comrpomises other women in Savita Halappanavar's situation.

kowloon · 17-05-2019 6:02pm

Haley Incalculable Nerd wrote: »

Its not a baby, it's a foetus, what does it matter?

If they're not condemning them for the abortion they're belittling their tragedy, two sides of the same coin.

Alrigghtythen · 17-05-2019 6:03pm

A group of cells is all it was and unless they have other children they are not parents

Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

Comments