€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

[Deleted User] · 19-12-2018 6:11pm

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

Ask the slaves tradesmen that built it if they were paid CIF rates.

While that is both a glib and accurate answer, how much of the cost is labour?

Thatnastyboy · 19-12-2018 6:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

While that is both a glib and accurate answer, how much of the cost is labour?

Hard to say but as you'll know an element of all costs to the project will be labour - in some elements labour may be 5%, others it may be 90%. Also depends how it's quantified, labour may be presented directly or within preliminaries or overheads or professional fees etc..

Overall, I don't know - but in my industry for example - the labour cost would be about 20% of the overall cost, and rising.

The reason for the glib is because comparing this project with a completely different project in a very different part of the world is pure apples and oranges stuff.

jmayo · 19-12-2018 6:30pm

seamus wrote: »

Conditions are better.
The only thing keeping most Irish health staff at home is the fact that they're in Ireland. There is basically nothing else for them.

In other countries, there's much better job satisfaction; even if the pay isn't great, the service is reasonably well-run, the staff are treated with respect, and they get to work in their home country.
For probably 90% of people, they don't need to be paid massive wages provided that they love their job. So they stay.

We don't. Our service is poorly run, staff are not respected, they're overworked and underappreciated. So unless you are dead set against leaving the country, you go to private health services, or you emigrate.

Maybe if we say rationalised the admin and management side, we might have more to spend on actual healthcare workers?

klaaaz wrote: »

Out of all this drivel, you attack the left who are not even in power and have never been in nearly 100 years! Nice deflection on your part.

Well maybe if the likes of sinn fein got down off the fence we might know what they are really capable of, but they much rather shout from the sidelines.

Then again speaking of drivel, that is all they usually shout so not holding out much hope.

klaaaz wrote: »

Its the right wing conservative party FG backed up by the largest opposition party FF who have overseen this billion plus euro hospital overrun. Oh and the right wing FG were behind another wasteful billion plus euro spend on Irish Water. And yet you'll still vote for FFG at the next election, you get what you deserve!

Ahh FFS would you stop the shyte.
How anyone can claim FG are right wing these days is beyond belief.
Then again it is you that's claiming it.

The party led by an openly gay pro migrant leader, that helped bring in abortion and same sex marriage.
The party that presides over one of the most generous social welfare countries in the world.

FFS.

And as someone else asked recently what are the alternatives ?
Oh yeah the party that was formally run by a guy linked to murders and protected a child abuser, has members that collect Garda murderers from jail.
And even if you could forget all that, they have moronic economic policies.

seamus · 19-12-2018 6:33pm

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe if we say rationalised the admin and management side, we might have more to spend on actual healthcare workers?

Yeah, but would they care?

If your job was sh1tty, they could double your salary and you'd still only hang around for another couple of years.

Whereas if it was a great place to work and you basically never got a raise except cost-of-living, you'd probably hang around forever.

gandalf · 19-12-2018 6:40pm

jmayo wrote: »

Oh yeah the party that was formally run by a guy linked to murders and protected a child abuser, has members that collect Garda murderers from jail.
And even if you could forget all that, they have moronic economic policies.

Now now JMayo you know that economically illiterate party is "led" by a woman who failed as a FF politician who can make decisions once the "disbanded

" Army Council in Belfast agrees with them

James Brown · 19-12-2018 6:43pm

gandalf wrote: »

Now now JMayo you know that economically illiterate party is "led" by a woman who failed as a FF politician who can make decisions once the "disbanded " Army Council in Belfast agrees with them

I mean imagine she was put in charge of that hospital, it would be super dooper over budget and the 'RA an' all being brickies, am I right? :rolleyes:

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 6:44pm

jmayo wrote: »

Well maybe if the likes of sinn fein got down off the fence we might know what they are really capable of, but they much rather shout from the sidelines.

Then again speaking of drivel, that is all they usually shout so not holding out much hope.

They and other parties are not in power so have no control over the most expensive hospital in the world.

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh FFS would you stop the shyte.
How anyone can claim FG are right wing these days is beyond belief.
Then again it is you that's claiming it.

The party led by an openly gay pro migrant leader, that helped bring in abortion and same sex marriage.
The party that presides over one of the most generous social welfare countries in the world.

FFS.

And as someone else asked recently what are the alternatives ?
Oh yeah the party that was formally run by a guy linked to murders and protected a child abuser, has members that collect Garda murderers from jail.
And even if you could forget all that, they have moronic economic policies.

FG is a right wing capitalist party and we don't have the most generous social welfare system in the world, its lagging far behind many EU countries. Personal income taxation is quite low here which benefits the wealthy. Seems you have not moved on and are stuck in the past of 50 years ago in the Troubles. Welcome to the 21st century, you've spoken like a true FG person just like Leo yesterday in the Dail.

James Brown · 19-12-2018 6:50pm

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe if we say rationalised the admin and management side, we might have more to spend on actual healthcare workers?

Well maybe if the likes of sinn fein got down off the fence we might know what they are really capable of, but they much rather shout from the sidelines.

Then again speaking of drivel, that is all they usually shout so not holding out much hope.

Ahh FFS would you stop the shyte.
How anyone can claim FG are right wing these days is beyond belief.
Then again it is you that's claiming it.

The party led by an openly gay pro migrant leader, that helped bring in abortion and same sex marriage.
The party that presides over one of the most generous social welfare countries in the world.

FFS.

And as someone else asked recently what are the alternatives ?
Oh yeah the party that was formally run by a guy linked to murders and protected a child abuser, has members that collect Garda murderers from jail.
And even if you could forget all that, they have moronic economic policies.

If I may or j-may-o

Tory boy Leo is the one looking to welfare scroungers during a time of rising and near full employment. Giving tax breaks to landlords/vulture funds during a housing crisis and blaming frontline staff on taking imagined holidays during christmas for the annual trolley worse than the usual crisis. All the while claiming 'it's worse elsewhere' as regards to the homeless crisis and bedding Fianna Fail, the party mostly responsible for the last crash to hold on to power. In fact when it comes to welfare and the tax payer spend on rents and hotels he's practically saying 'let them eat cake' and then complaining 'they're eating all the cake!'. In short his attitude and policies of his party are pretty much Tory IMO.

Podge_irl · 19-12-2018 7:06pm

listermint wrote: »

The people that made this decision need to come out and own it and apologise. We all knew / know that the sites in Blanchardstown and Tallaght were more suitable on all points.

Apart from medical outcomes, but who cares about that right?

jmayo wrote: »

But no, all the medical experts were claiming it had to be collocated and what about public transport.
Yeah all the sick kids and their parents would be taking public transport to the hospital.
Sure what am I saying, who gives a shyte about them, so they added two extra units to Tallaght and Connolly to cater for them.

Sure...why on earth should we listen to medical experts when deciding investment in medical infrastructure. The vast majority of people attend GOSH via public transport and seems to work out fine.

Venom wrote: »

I know a fair few people working in St. James and they tell a completely different story. The hospital is losing staff hand over fist and finding it impossible to recruit more, due to lack of parking for the staff and how hard it is to get there on public transport. They were stunned when they learned the new hospital was going on that site.

How on earth is it hard to get to James' via public transport. The main train station is nearby and a bus and Luas line literally go through the grounds of the hospital. It is the easiest hospital by far to get to via public transport.

topper75 · 19-12-2018 7:06pm

thecomedian wrote: »

Exactly this.
Lowest price gets in and then after that there’s nothing they can do.

Surely that price and its component parts are reviewed and compared with reality by somebody on the govt side? Someone well paid too I'm guessing.

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 7:11pm

topper75 wrote: »

Surely that price and its component parts are reviewed and compared with reality by somebody on the govt side? Someone well paid too I'm guessing.

I take you are not too familiar with what has gone on?

jmayo · 19-12-2018 7:12pm

klaaaz wrote: »

They and other parties are not in power so have no control over the most expensive hospital in the world.

FG is a right wing capitalist party and we don't have the most generous social welfare system in the world, its lagging far behind many EU countries. Personal income taxation is quite low here which benefits the wealthy. Seems you have not moved on and are stuck in the past of 50 years ago in the Troubles. Welcome to the 21st century, you've spoken like a true FG person just like Leo yesterday in the Dail.

Ehh Gerry McCabe wasn't murdered 50 years ago sunshine and you fooking know it.
And the gent from Kerry didn't collect his killers from jail 50 years ago.

I will leave this here to show how bad our welfare system is.
Well bad that is for the ones having to pay for it.
Something somehow I bet you don't do.

Margaret Cash is on the equivalent of over €80k per year before tax.
Oh and even after she gets the after tax amount of €54k she still doesn't have to pay for healthcare or legal aid like a normal taxpayer would have to.

Now tell us all again how our social welfare system is lagging behind other EU states. :rolleyes:

Actually don't bother I can't be bothered arguing with you at this stage.

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 7:15pm

Berserker wrote: »

The contract was awarded last year.

Does it say that everything was signed and agreed on? I doubt it!

jmayo · 19-12-2018 7:21pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sure...why on earth should we listen to medical experts when deciding investment in medical infrastructure. The vast majority of people attend GOSH via public transport and seems to work out fine.

Are you seriously comparing London's transport infrastructure to Dublins ?
Here go debate with Klaaz.

Podge_irl wrote: »

How on earth is it hard to get to James' via public transport. The main train station is nearby and a bus and Luas line literally go through the grounds of the hospital. It is the easiest hospital by far to get to via public transport.

It is the National Children's hospital, remember that little nugget for a start.
Say you travel from Bellmullet, Donegal, Dingle, Ennis, Dungarvan to it with your sick child.
And they are probably not very well if they are going to it in the first place.
Are you going to take the bus to Dublin, because you actually get a train from some of those locations ?
Even if you can take a train are you going to put a sick child on the train where they may be exposed to infections and you can't control the environment=?

BTW why are they developing two units in Tallaght and Connolly if this was the best site ?

And even in Dublin area, how many people in Dublin live beside a Luas line or train line ?
Will you take the Dart from Dun Laoghaire to Tara St/Connolly/Pearse, walk a bit and then Luas it ?

I swear this place is inhabited by idiots, I really do at this stage.

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 7:28pm

jmayo wrote: »

Actually don't bother I can't be bothered arguing with you at this stage.

Gladly as your defence of FG on the 1bn euro overspend is a classic deflection move. It's a pity you're ok with FG wasting taxpayers money in the order of billions.

KevRossi · 19-12-2018 7:31pm

One of the very few major construction projects ever done in this country on time and under budget was Croke Park.

I heard the story a few times that at the awarding of the contract to the builders (infamous company for running overtime and over budget on state projects) they were told that they can shaft the GAA for as much as they wish, but would probably never get a job in this country again if they did.

So it was duly done, on time, under budget and with remarkably few expensive snags and fixes.

Most major construction companies have a team of engineers and legals who go through a tender with a fine tooth comb and pick out all the anomalies. This is where they make the serious profits over the course of a project.

Skylinehead · 19-12-2018 7:32pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Be interesting to see details. I'd say they'd no trouble finding construction workers....were as for social housing, there's a shortage of them :rolleyes:

Are you suggesting we don't need hospitals?

I'll keep that in mind the next time you mention the word trollies.

Podge_irl · 19-12-2018 7:33pm

jmayo wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing London's transport infrastructure to Dublins ?

No, but James' is the best connected hospital by public transport.

jmayo wrote: »

It is the National Children's hospital, remember that little nugget for a start.
Say you travel from Bellmullet, Donegal, Dingle, Ennis, Dungarvan to it with your sick child.
And they are probably not very well if they are going to it in the first place.
Are you going to take the bus to Dublin, because you actually get a train from some of those locations ?
Even if you can take a train are you going to put a sick child on the train where they may be exposed to infections and you can't control the environment=?

BTW why are they developing two units in Tallaght and Connolly if this was the best site ?

And even in Dublin area, how many people in Dublin live beside a Luas line or train line ?
Will you take the Dart from Dun Laoghaire to Tara St/Connolly/Pearse, walk a bit and then Luas it ?

I swear this place is inhabited by idiots, I really do at this stage.

The vast majority of people attend GOSH via public transport and seems to work out fine.

So is your issue with the level of public transport or the concept of travelling via public transport? Ambulances aren't about to deposit people at a train station to pop up to Heuston. The vast majority of people flowing in and out of the hospital will not be critically ill children. The new NCH will have, incidentally, about 500 parking spaces in it.

They are developing units in Tallaght and Connolly because they are more easily accessible. But the highly specialised care will be done in the NCH where it can be done best. They are literally trying to both address concerns about access while maintaining the best standards of care and people are complaining about the cost. Tallaght and Connolly are also almost completely inaccessible for people without a car.

What this is an example of is a political party not interfering in a decision and following expert advice. But apparently everyone else knows better because the single most important factor in a hospital is how easy it is to drive to it.

Naos · 19-12-2018 7:42pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Gladly as your defence of FG on the 1bn euro overspend is a classic deflection move. It's a pity you're ok with FG wasting taxpayers money in the order of billions.

On this thread you are giving out about the Government wasting taxpayers money.

On the 'Strokestown' thread you are defending someone who deliberately avoided paying taxes.

Are you just anti-Government no matter what?

Thatnastyboy · 19-12-2018 7:42pm

thecomedian wrote: »

Does it say that everything was signed and agreed on? I doubt it!

Never worked on a construction project then?

They change a lot, nothing will ever be fully agreed and signed off before finishing - let alone starting!

thecomedian · 19-12-2018 7:45pm

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

Never worked on a construction project then?

They change a lot, nothing will ever be fully agreed and signed off before finishing - let alone starting!

That’s not what I was saying.

This was doomed from very early on and there wasn’t much the Gov/client could do.

facehugger99 · 19-12-2018 7:45pm

KevRossi wrote: »

One of the very few major construction projects ever done in this country on time and under budget was Croke Park.

Not true, most, but not all, of the motorway schemes delivered between 2004 - 2010 were the same.

Anita Blow · 19-12-2018 7:45pm

Podge is dead right. People are free to read the Dolphin report, informed by international experts and paediatric medical experts in Ireland on the decision-making process for where to locate the hospital. St James' came out on top even after considering access, and it was the only hospital considered that was endorsed by an existing children's hospital (Crumlin).

The cost overrun is absolutely abhorrent and deserves scrutiny, but the location is the best out of the 6 or so adult hospitals that made submissions for it to be located with them.

James Brown · 19-12-2018 7:52pm

Nixonbot wrote: »

Are you suggesting we don't need hospitals?

I'll keep that in mind the next time you mention the word trollies.

Are you condoning witch trials?

Where did you get that, are we just throwing any aul' sh*te out there?

They say there's no money for social housing in any great number and we'd have a tough time finding the construction workers anyway. Then we've this hospital going over budget by a billion and the only cry is, 'it might be the most expensive, but it'll be one of the best!'. Money, no problem and workers to build it too. Just pointing it out there boss.

NSAman · 19-12-2018 7:58pm

Jesus, is Calatrava building this also?

Problem with Ireland is that NO ONE is accountable for anything. Make those who costed this, get fired. Double check the figures and if extra money is needed, let those that made it happen pay out of their pensions.

(I know this is unrealistic, but until someone pays for their mistakes nothing will change)

It is PUBLIC money... no one gives a crap because it just appears from no where.

klaaaz · 19-12-2018 8:04pm

Naos wrote: »

On this thread you are giving out about the Government wasting taxpayers money.

On the 'Strokestown' thread you are defending someone who deliberately avoided paying taxes.

Are you just anti-Government no matter what?

Nice twisting. I never defended the tax avoidance person, I justifiably criticised the violent manner at how the eviction had taken place.

The FG govt with the main opposition party as backers have wasted over a billion euros of taxpayers money on a hospital with probably another billion to come, are you going to criticise them or condone them?

The Bishop Basher · 19-12-2018 8:12pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Apart from medical outcomes, but who cares about that right?

There’s nothing in a hospital that can’t be moved..

That includes consultants..

We could have built a massive hospital in a green field site off the M50 for a fraction of what this will cost by the time it’s finshed.

Let’s bear in mind, this project won’t provide any extra beds..

Not exactly value for money is it..

We have no business building the most expensive children’s hospital in the world when we can’t even get the basics right.

gctest50 · 19-12-2018 8:12pm

Probably been cheaper/better/faster/more room for expansion to put it outside the m50 and run a dedicated rail link to it

Anytime you see something done in Irelan in "awkward" way - there is a massive fiddle in there somewhere somehow

holystungun9 · 19-12-2018 8:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

More than a Burj Khalifa. Fantastic.

Black and yellow, black and yellow, black and yellow. Love that track!

[Deleted User] · 19-12-2018 8:18pm

Reminds me of that road built in Russia for the Winter Olympics. Cost 9.4 billion dollars.

Cowboys, Ted.

€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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