Buying on your own

sportsfan90 · 23-07-2019 3:24pm #1

I've been reading threads on here over the years with people buying a house on their own. I'm just wondering what arrangements people then come to down the line if they meet a partner and they want to live together.

It must surely be a tricky situation with subjects that are difficult to bring up in conversation. Should the partner who moves in then start contributing towards the mortgage, or should it be classified as rent or some kind of licencee agreement? What happens if they break up after a few years, does that person then have some claim to your property?

I'm single in my late 20's and will probably look to buy in the next few years so I could easily end up in that situation. It must be a legal minefield that I'm sure many people must have got stung.

I'd be grateful to hear peoples experiences or things to remember when buying on their own?

BrokenArrows · 23-07-2019 5:02pm

If you cant have a frank discussion about that with someone you are considering moving in with, then you shouldn't be moving in with them.

If you are worried about them gaining rights to a % of your property then seek legal advice and find out exactly what the laws are, but in general if your partner contributes to the mortgage or the payment of bills in the house they can legally own a % of the house depending on their contribution. I believe you need to be living in that property for a number of years for this to take affect.

Personally if i was in that situation i would rent out the place i owned and then myself and partner would privately rent another location where it would be "our" place, otherwise i would always consider it "my" place and she would be living there with me.

riclad · 23-07-2019 5:13pm

If someone lives with you ,if you charge them rent ,they are a
licencee, you can give them a rent book .
You can get 14 k rental income tax free under the rent a room scheme .
you must declare the income to revenue .

https://www.revenue.ie/en/personal-tax-credits-reliefs-and-exemptions/land-and-property/rent-a-room-relief/index.aspx
My advice is wait 3 years ,after that think about is it worth while putting them on the mortgage .
Or you could simply ask them to pay half the utility bills, esb,gas etc
apart from the mortgage.
It depends on your income .Can you afford to pay the mortge by yourself .
The problem is if 2 people are listed on the loan ,
there could be legal problems if you break up in the future .
You can get advice from flac , free legal advice center .
if you charge them rent or theres some other fees you should keep monthly records of all the transactions .

https://www.facebook.com/FLACIreland/
I,m not a legal expert i do not think a person has a claim on the property
unless they are named on the mortgage and they pay x per cent of the
mortgage every month .
I don,t know what the law is re a couple that lives together
so you may want to go to flac and get basic legal advice.
If you break up in the future you can simply give the person who is a
licensee notice to leave the property .
So its important to keep full records of all rent recieved and to
declare it to the tax office every year by filling out a tax return .

You could charge them rent and use the rent to pay bills,
insurance,esb,etc or use part of it to pay the mortgage .
Legally the simplest thing to do is to charge them rent as a licensee

Thoie · 23-07-2019 5:26pm

riclad wrote: »

If someone lives with you ,if you charge them rent ,they are a
licencee, you can give them a rent book .
You can get 14 k rental income tax free under the rent a room scheme .
you must declare the income to revenue .

I asked my solicitor about that scenario when I bought my place, and the information from riclad is more nuanced than it looks above. I thought the same, that if they came in as a tenant or a licencee, then they wouldn't get any "rights" to my property, but that's not the case.

If you've been cohabiting as a couple for something like 6 years (or 2 years, if you have a child/children together), then they do gain some automatic rights. So charging them rent, or any of that kind of thing doesn't make a difference.

Take a look at
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/property_rights_and_unmarried_couples.html and at https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/separation_and_divorce/family_home.html

Basically, if you buy a place on your own now, and in a few years time you meet someone and start making plans for them to move in with you, talk to your solicitor before they move in. It may not be terribly romantic, but it's a practical consideration. And have the conversation with your partner too, and let them know what's happening. Obviously if they're moving in you're probably in the ooey-gooey stage of love, and they'll exclaim that they'd never expect part of your house, but 10 years down the line if things went sour it could be a very different situation.

Heres Johnny · 23-07-2019 8:19pm

I have a house with approx 150k equity in it, I bought in 2010 and between clearing mortgage and price rises I find myself with a fair whack of equity.
Girlfriend has lived here for last 2 years, she was a lodger for 6 months before we got together in any other way.
She still pays me same amount she always did towards mortgage, bills, food etc I'm happy with this and I still pay a good bit more than her...... Does she or will she ever have any rights to my property if we remain unmarried?

endacl · 23-07-2019 8:21pm

Yes.

Thoie · 24-07-2019 9:56am

Heres Johnny wrote: »

I have a house with approx 150k equity in it, I bought in 2010 and between clearing mortgage and price rises I find myself with a fair whack of equity.
Girlfriend has lived here for last 2 years, she was a lodger for 6 months before we got together in any other way.
She still pays me same amount she always did towards mortgage, bills, food etc I'm happy with this and I still pay a good bit more than her...... Does she or will she ever have any rights to my property if we remain unmarried?

endacl wrote: »

Yes.

Yes, I think it's after 6 years (it might be 4, but 6 is the number that stuck in my mind). It's definitely 2 years if you have children together. It would be worth having a chat with your solicitor.

SozBbz · 24-07-2019 12:26pm

Its 5 years if no children and 2 years if children enter the equitation.

Just to point out.... there is not right to and % of a property. Your ex partner would have to take a claim against you and a judge would then decide what if any entitlement they had. They only get the right to take such a claim after the above periods.

As I understand it there isnt much case law in this area as the legislation is quite recent.

A judge will look at each case on its merits.

I don't see much point in worrying when both the property and relationship are hypothetical.

SozBbz · 24-07-2019 12:36pm

Also, just to add, I own my own place and my OH lives with me. We've lived together 4.5 years.

Am I worried about him accruing rights in 6 months? Nope, not a bit.

Even if the worst came to the worst, and we broke up, I'm not worried for the following reasons;

1. He's too lazy. I know emotions and spite are always possible, but knowing him as I do, I just cannot see it.
2. Hes not my dependent. He has a good job and plenty of savings. He can easily survive on his own.
3. Although he gives me money each month, which indirectly goes towards the mortgage, its a lot less than he'd be paying if we were splitting rent on a similar or even lesser property, and its much much less than he'd be paying if he was renting alone. So sure he's "helping" with the mortgage, but he's had a cheap roof over his head for a long time now, thus enabling very strong savings. We've both benefited in reality.

As I understand it a judge would only award him a share if there was a very unequal scenario and he was going to be significantly worse off.

Anyway, the whole thing is about to become moot as we're now buying a house together so that in my view is the start of properly financially entangling ourselves.

BrokenArrows · 24-07-2019 9:39pm

SozBbz wrote: »

Also, just to add, I own my own place and my OH lives with me. We've lived together 4.5 years.

Am I worried about him accruing rights in 6 months? Nope, not a bit.

Even if the worst came to the worst, and we broke up, I'm not worried for the following reasons;

1. He's too lazy. I know emotions and spite are always possible, but knowing him as I do, I just cannot see it.
2. Hes not my dependent. He has a good job and plenty of savings. He can easily survive on his own.
3. Although he gives me money each month, which indirectly goes towards the mortgage, its a lot less than he'd be paying if we were splitting rent on a similar or even lesser property, and its much much less than he'd be paying if he was renting alone. So sure he's "helping" with the mortgage, but he's had a cheap roof over his head for a long time now, thus enabling very strong savings. We've both benefited in reality.

As I understand it a judge would only award him a share if there was a very unequal scenario and he was going to be significantly worse off.

Anyway, the whole thing is about to become moot as we're now buying a house together so that in my view is the start of properly financially entangling ourselves.

You might say that and you're in a decent scenario. However imagine if things went sour and he even fought for 5% equity in the property. This would be a pain in the ass.

If you are both buying a property together now then are you going 50/50 on the deposit and repayments? This could bring about another round of legal issues down the road.

sportsfan90 · 24-07-2019 10:32pm

SozBbz wrote: »

Also, just to add, I own my own place and my OH lives with me. We've lived together 4.5 years.

SozBbz wrote: »

Anyway, the whole thing is about to become moot as we're now buying a house together so that in my view is the start of properly financially entangling ourselves.

Fair play SozBbz and best of luck with the new house

I guess the situation for you is slightly different as you know the current situation is temporary and you'll be moving and buying a different property together. Can I ask what if you both planned to see out your days in your current place? Entirely hypothetical in your case I know, but then do you think you would continue with the current arrangement of your OH contributing to the mortgage but you still owning the house outright?

ED E · 24-07-2019 10:44pm

Sign a prenup and never get married.

In Ireland statutory rights override anything you might write in a prenup but if you stay unmarried then a signed agreement can hold.

SozBbz · 25-07-2019 9:30am

BrokenArrows wrote: »

You might say that and you're in a decent scenario. However imagine if things went sour and he even fought for 5% equity in the property. This would be a pain in the ass.

If you are both buying a property together now then are you going 50/50 on the deposit and repayments? This could bring about another round of legal issues down the road.

I do say i am in a decent scenario :cool:

We cannot go through life protecting ourselves from all and any possible risks. I went in with my eyes open and took a calculated risk and its not bitten me on the back side.

Being in any sort of relationship where you live together, be that married or just cohabitation brings the risk that when it all falls apart, things could get messy. What do you propose as an alternative? Stay single? Live apart?

If the worst happens, we're grown ups and we'll deal with it. I don't live in fear of him trying to claim my property. I don't think its likely as I know the type of person he is, and I don't think he'd be in any way successful anyway because he's frankly too well off in his own right. Neither of us are financially dependent on the other. Its scenarios where the person who moves in becomes a dependant and gets used to a certain lifestyle etc is when there's a risk.

I spoke to my solicitor about it at the time and he told me that ultimately theres no absolute protection however I could look into getting himself to sign something, but he'd need his own independent legal advice for it to have any chance of holding up. I took a balanced view that that scenario in and of itself would cause more hassle and decided to do nothing.

He's putting more than me into the deposit this time around, around double, as obviously I've money tied up in our current place and we're not selling it. The rental income from our current place will be shared (whats left after tax) anyway or just put towards the mortgage in the new place.

SozBbz · 25-07-2019 9:35am

sportsfan90 wrote: »

Fair play SozBbz and best of luck with the new house

I guess the situation for you is slightly different as you know the current situation is temporary and you'll be moving and buying a different property together. Can I ask what if you both planned to see out your days in your current place? Entirely hypothetical in your case I know, but then do you think you would continue with the current arrangement of your OH contributing to the mortgage but you still owning the house outright?

Well I didnt know that at the time, it was perfectly possible that we could have reached 5 years here, with the time it takes for a sale to go through, we still might be here by the time we reach that milestone in a few months.

I'd no plans on changing the ownership set up though... not unless it was asked for, which it wasnt. It was never the forever home though, so the fact its in my name never seemed that important.

I will say the arrangement was causing zero trouble. We will likely get married at some point in the next 12-18 months whcih would change everything anyway, but for now we're just focused on the new house.

SozBbz · 25-07-2019 9:39am

ED E wrote: »

Sign a prenup and never get married.

In Ireland statutory rights override anything you might write in a prenup but if you stay unmarried then a signed agreement can hold.

Are you single? Theres a lot of bitterness in this post.

I don't think its morally right to build a life with someone yet attempt to keep ownership of everything thats yours. Say a couple cohabit for 20 years. Its the mans house from before they met, but over the course of the relationship, the woman who initially paid towards the mortgage gave up her career to care for their 2 children. She's now been out of the workforce for 15 years and her earning capacity is diminished because of this gap.

Is it right that if they split, that man can turf the mother of his children out with zero comeback despite a long relationship and children, just because he had a house when they met?

If you build a life with someone, you have to accept some sort of shared destiny.

old_house · 25-07-2019 10:11am

The fact that my partner (and eventually our kids) will have a right in the property was a major factor for me to buy a house. Sure, any relationship may turn sour, but the much greater risk for me would be to see my family ending up homeless in a scenario where I could not keep up paying rent due to an accident, illness or whatever. I want my wife to own (part of) the house and my children to always have a safe place to live, no matter what will happen to me or between me and my wife. Money isn't everything.

25-07-2019 10:17am

So, I’m on the list myself. As far as dating goes, while this may be backwards to how everyone else does it, I’d rather be a lone homeowner than trying to date a woman from my parent’s.

Shout out to all the other singles saving. I’m about to move to the parent’s to save for my first place. God help me, but it’ll be worth it.

_Kaiser_ · 25-07-2019 11:48am

Deleted User wrote: »

Shout out to all the other singles saving. I’m about to move to the parent’s to save for my first place. God help me, but it’ll be worth it.

Total side point, but I don't see this as a good thing in a wider sense.

It totally distorts the view of what is affordable and achievable in the market, it's unbalanced as not everyone has that option to move home, and it gives the Government room to ignore the underlying issues as people like yourself are then neither homeless or dealing with the private rental sector taking pressure off them there.

I know in real terms it's an option many do in this country if they can, but I don't think it really helps the situation either

26-07-2019 7:59am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Total side point, but I don't see this as a good thing in a wider sense.

It totally distorts the view of what is affordable and achievable in the market, it's unbalanced as not everyone has that option to move home, and it gives the Government room to ignore the underlying issues as people like yourself are then neither homeless or dealing with the private rental sector taking pressure off them there.

I know in real terms it's an option many do in this country if they can, but I don't think it really helps the situation either

I fail to recall asking you.

I’m moving home to get the one-off expense of debt-free deposit done. I know my numbers, and the rule of 3.5 times your salary. I’m taking the value from my current pay, even though I’m guaranteed incremental increases for the next two years on my take-home pay. A crash save for 15 months means I can then start renting again, safe in the knowledge that the money I need is there when the house to buy pops up.

People make do as best they can, and market-spouting suits make sure our bums go back and forth on the bacon slicer to get their cut. It’s the way it is.

Edit: And to be fair, the whole idea of an undistorted market is a fallacy. It’s *always* going to be distorted, given the primacy of the service provided. It’s Shelter, one of the base requirements on the Hierarchy of Needs.

Underground · 26-07-2019 12:06pm

I'm in a similar boat. 28 y/o on 46k with a masters but single, so the list of affordable properties in areas I'd like to live is depressingly scant.

I know people will say "compromise on your ideal location" etc but seriously, what's the point in studying hard in school, going to college, getting a good job, upskilling, doing all the things a good little citizen is supposed to do if I can't get a place where I'd like? I'm not someone with my hand out looking for a council gaff beside mammy, I'm willing to pay.

So, living at home with the folks for now, foregoing my independence in the hope of one day getting a place. I can see how it does kinda let Leo et al off the hook a little bit. Maybe things will change when FG are sh*tcanned in the next GE.

SozBbz · 26-07-2019 12:12pm

Underground wrote: »

I'm in a similar boat. 28 y/o on 46k with a masters but single, so the list of affordable properties in areas I'd like to live is depressingly scant.

I know people will say "compromise on your ideal location" etc but seriously, what's the point in studying hard in school, going to college, getting a good job, upskilling, doing all the things a good little citizen is supposed to do if I can't get a place where I'd like? I'm not someone with my hand out looking for a council gaff beside mammy, I'm willing to pay.

So, living at home with the folks for now, foregoing my independence in the hope of one day getting a place. I can see how it does kinda let Leo et al off the hook a little bit. Maybe things will change when FG are sh*tcanned in the next GE.

But you're a single person on whats basically not much above the average industrial wage. Masters Degrees are pretty common place these days, they don't really set you apart. I have a masters, most of my friends do too. Its nearly become the minmum theses days. It certainly wouldnt set you apart like it might have 20 years ago.

Your wages are normal enough but not exceptional. Its always been harder to buy on a single income and its certainly not easy now.

Are you looking at any affordable housing schemes that might be available to you? Are you considering apartments?

11-08-2019 12:51pm

SozBbz wrote: »

But you're a single person on whats basically not much above the average industrial wage. Masters Degrees are pretty common place these days, they don't really set you apart. I have a masters, most of my friends do too. Its nearly become the minmum theses days. It certainly wouldnt set you apart like it might have 20 years ago.

Your wages are normal enough but not exceptional. Its always been harder to buy on a single income and its certainly not easy now.

Are you looking at any affordable housing schemes that might be available to you? Are you considering apartments?

With respect, None of your beeswax. If you want us to change our behavior, arrest us.

Buying on your own

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