Gender Recognition Bill

Potential-Monke · 17-07-2019 8:54pm #1

Hey all, we're having a discussion here at work and something came up. I researched the GRB and I can't see anything specific to the issue raised.

Before we start, I want to say that I'm 100% behind anyones decision to do whatever they want regarding gender.

So, a colleague was asking is it illegal to call someone who has transitioned by their original gender. Now, I know it's not the right thing to do, I personally believe if someone wants to be a different gender that is their right and no one can take that from them, and this is why the GRB was drafted and enacted.

So i read the GRB, and I can't see anything regarding offences. I was a Garda for 9 years and i'm genuinely stumped on the reply to this. I can't even make an educated guess at it.

So I'm asking those who are (hopefully) more learned in this. Is it illegal, or just bad form? I'm not talking about someone inciting the masses, just a general conversation between 2 people, ie: if someone (Person A) transitioned from male to female and got their certificate confirming same, is it illegal for Person B to call Person A male?

Thanks in advance!

RobbieMD · 17-07-2019 9:22pm

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Hey all, we're having a discussion here at work and something came up. I researched the GRB and I can't see anything specific to the issue raised.

Before we start, I want to say that I'm 100% behind anyones decision to do whatever they want regarding gender.

So, a colleague was asking is it illegal to call someone who has transitioned by their original gender. Now, I know it's not the right thing to do, I personally believe if someone wants to be a different gender that is their right and no one can take that from them, and this is why the GRB was drafted and enacted.

So i read the GRB, and I can't see anything regarding offences. I was a Garda for 9 years and i'm genuinely stumped on the reply to this. I can't even make an educated guess at it.

So I'm asking those who are (hopefully) more learned in this. Is it illegal, or just bad form? I'm not talking about someone inciting the masses, just a general conversation between 2 people, ie: if someone (Person A) transitioned from male to female and got their certificate confirming same, is it illegal for Person B to call Person A male?

Thanks in advance!

The offences only relate to the certificate, either failing to surrender it if it’s revoked, or providing false information. There is no offence for failing to call someone by their preferred pronoun or gender.

Our incitement to hatred legislation here dictates what you may not say in public, not what you must. You can’t be forced to speak a certain way.

Have a google of bill C16 in Canada for their take on things.

antix80 · 17-07-2019 9:28pm

The state may recognise someone's chosen gender, but the state can't dictate what people say or think. That's 1984 territory.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

So, a colleague was asking is it illegal to call someone who has transitioned by their original gender.

If laws were in operation then you've just committed a crime by saying "original gender"

"Transitioning is the process of changing one's gender presentation and/or sex characteristics to accord with one's internal sense of gender identity"

robyntmorton · 17-07-2019 10:04pm

So, on account of happening to have a GRC lying around, the wording on it states:

The above named person is, from the date of issue, of the gender shown

The issue of this also allows an updated birth cert to be issued, which effectively says the person is male/female from their date of birth.

Now, with that in mind, I know of no actual part of the bill that compels someone to call someone he/she, but it is bad form to not go along with it, and repeated intentional going against it just makes you look like a hateful ass.

If you were looking at it from an employer to employee relationship though, it could be construed as bullying or discrimination which is a completely different kettle of fish.

Peregrinus · 18-07-2019 2:43am

I think robyntmorton has it.

It's already the case that, if for example you called a cis man "she", that's not in itself a crime. But if you did that because the man was (or you thought the man was) gay, and you wished to bully him or sneer at his sexual orientation or out him or whatever, you could very easily fall foul of employment equality/equal status legislation, and conceivably you could find yourself in trouble for public order offences of the incitement-to-hatred variety.

And I think something similar would be true here. Calling a trans woman "he", or deadnaming her, isn't intrinsically illegal, but depending on the intention and the context could contravene employment equality/equal status/public order legislation.

Potential-Monke · 18-07-2019 11:52am

Awesome, thank you for the insights. I had an idea that there's no specific legislation covering someone calling a transitioned person by their wanted gender, so thank ye all for clarifying further. I shall let me colleague know.

branie2 · 18-07-2019 3:44pm

I'd call a transwoman and transman by their preffered pronouns if I ever met one.

antix80 · 18-07-2019 3:50pm

branie2 wrote: »

I'd call a transwoman and transman by their preffered pronouns if I ever met one.

I would in most cases, assuming the pronoun was "he" or "she". Not (singular) they, ze, zir, etc. Also, in the case of alter egos -Conchita, Panti Bliss- no chance are they getting a female pronoun from me.

Annasopra · 18-07-2019 5:45pm

If a non binary person wants me to refer to them as "they/them" or drag queen or king wants to be referred as she/her or he/him thats absolutely fine by me.

Potential-Monke · 18-07-2019 7:00pm

I would too, so long as it's clear, otherwise I would do every effort to not make an attempt at calling them one or the other. I walked through the Pride parade recently, and as a straight male I found it difficult to tell the difference, and I'm petrified of saying the wrong pronoun, so I just avoid anything like that in general these days. Others are slightly more, shall we say, stubborn, thus the reason for the thread. I no longer assume gender in general tbh.

Peregrinus · 19-07-2019 2:05am

antix80 wrote: »

I would in most cases, assuming the pronoun was "he" or "she". Not (singular) they, ze, zir, etc. Also, in the case of alter egos -Conchita, Panti Bliss- no chance are they getting a female pronoun from me.

Rory O'Neill is "he"; Panti Bliss is "she". It's not that difficult. Panti may be a performed character, but she's unquestionably a female performed character.

antix80 · 19-07-2019 8:48am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Rory O'Neill is "he"; Panti Bliss is "she". It's not that difficult. Panti may be a performed character, but she's unquestionably a female performed character.

Yup, but if i met Rory dressed as Panti, he's still a he. I'd say "can you serve him" if he walked in to a shop regardless of how he was dressed, because I know he's a man (and identifies as such) who just happens to play a female character in somewhat of a parody.

But yes, if I'm talking about the a character I'll use the correct pronouns, e.g brendan o Carroll's character mrs brown is she/her

Peregrinus · 19-07-2019 9:01am

Just to be clear, O'Neill is not a trans woman, not even when he's being Panti. He's a man playing a woman.

If you have an encounter with Panti, and refer to her as "he", what you're doing there is not denying O'Neill's gender identity. You're refusing to accept or acknowledge O'Neill's performance, or to participate it or engage with it. Which may be a fairly graceless thing to do, and could, depending on your motive and on the context, be seen as homophobic. (This is the generic "you", not you, Antix80. I'm not calling Antix80 a homophobe.) But, I agree, it's not at all the same thing as refusing to acknowledge or accept the gender identity of a trans woman.

antix80 · 19-07-2019 11:04am

If he was in character, sure, in the same way you'd refer to a ventriloquist's puppet or a cartoon character by the gender of the character rather than the voice actor.

Peregrinus · 22-07-2019 1:55am

antix80 wrote: »

If he was in character, sure, in the same way you'd refer to a ventriloquist's puppet or a cartoon character by the gender of the character rather than the voice actor.

Or a female character is a novel written by a male author.

Annasopra · 22-07-2019 2:54pm

antix80 wrote: »

Yup, but if i met Rory dressed as Panti, he's still a he. I'd say "can you serve him" if he walked in to a shop regardless of how he was dressed, because I know he's a man (and identifies as such) who just happens to play a female character in somewhat of a parody.

But yes, if I'm talking about the a character I'll use the correct pronouns, e.g brendan o Carroll's character mrs brown is she/her

I dont see any difference between Panti and Mrs Brown!

Gender Recognition Bill

Comments