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Do we pay too much tax for crappy services?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    kippy wrote: »
    Are these people not business people?

    They are

    But to help with your pedanticness.....
    Someone with a track record of running a profit making company of similar size.

    Look the reality is it will take multiple generations to shake it up 100plus years.
    Or privatise the lot which comes with its own problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭TCM


    There should be no infringment on a private operator competing, especially for transport and utilities.


    So what you're proposing is that private bus operators, for example, should be allowed compete on all profitable routes and leave those routes that might be loss making to public operators.

    Enlighten me!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Some of the coach travel stuff works quite well. Good service frequency on say airport runs and running in the night.

    Wheras Bus Eireann can be lathargic and slow to deliver.

    Unlike Bus Éireann, private coach operators have the luxury of being able to pour their resources into profitable routes, without having to adhere to the same public service requirements. In addition to that, some of them save money by cutting corners with regard to safety. I work with several people who used to work for well-known private coach companies and I've heard some shocking stories about the conditions they had to work under and the laws they were expected to break.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Unlike Bus Éireann, private coach operators have the luxury of being able to pour their resources into profitable routes, without having to adhere to the same public service requirements. In addition to that, some of them save money by cutting corners with regard to safety. I work with several people who used to work for well-known private coach companies and I've heard some shocking stories about the conditions they had to work under and the laws they were expected to break.

    How do you know that? Where is your proof?

    From reading some of the enlightening posts on the transport forum, you'd know we have limited competition on routes ie a lot of intercity routes are restricted to 2 operators with controls over timetables. In the case of intercity routes private companies identified the opportunities available from the new motorways before Bus Eireann and got in ahead of them.


    For all this talk about private sector cutting corners etc I'd argue without solid proof it's at best hearsay if not outright made up. Again going back to threads on transport forum where quiet regularly you had different posters saying Go Ahead were having difficulties getting drivers for their new routes in Dublin only for Go Aheads website to stop taking new driver applications. Which indicated that they didn't have a problem.

    Even outside the bus sector if you take airlines Ryanair from my limited knowledge had no worse a safety record than Aer Lingus did when it was government owned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    How do you know that? Where is your proof?

    I've heard the exact same kind of stories about the same couple of companies from several colleagues whose words I'm inclined to trust. This isn't court, so I don't need to provide proof. A quick glance at the fleet of some private operators should be enough to raise alarm bells.

    PeadarCo wrote: »
    For all this talk about private sector cutting corners etc I'd argue without solid proof it's at best hearsay if not outright made up. Again going back to threads on transport forum where quiet regularly you had different posters saying Go Ahead were having difficulties getting drivers for their new routes in Dublin only for Go Aheads website to stop taking new driver applications. Which indicated that they didn't have a problem.

    Go Ahead have had huge difficulty retaining drivers - not because they're a bad company to work for, but because drivers are quickly discovering that €14.50 an hour simply isn't enough to live on in Dublin. Take a look at their Twitter account tomorrow morning and count the number of services they'll be cancelling due to 'operational issues'.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Some of the coach travel stuff works quite well. Good service frequency on say airport runs and running in the night.

    Wheras Bus Eireann can be lathargic and slow to deliver.

    They are all extensively regulated by the NTA




  • PeadarCo wrote: »


    For all this talk about private sector cutting corners etc I'd argue without solid proof it's at best hearsay if not outright made up.

    we can only pray you are consistent in this laudable approach to hearsay but alas people seldom are i find


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,567 ✭✭✭quokula


    Having lived in other parts of Europe, Ireland does have a pretty poor tax-to-service ratio. However I don't think I've seen any evidence that the public sector or projects are generally any more wasteful here, or that more privatisation would magically solve anything. Every country has its issues with projects over running and services not meeting expectations.

    I think it's mostly down to circumstances, like the legacy of being a colony. We'd have far better public transport for our money if an army of slaves had built a network of rail tunnels under Dublin in the early 20th century, but that didn't happen. Really we've been playing catch up from no adequate infrastructure over the last half a century. On top of that we're a fairly sparsely populated island at the edge of the continent, which doesn't lend itself to getting good value for money either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,910 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    we can only pray you are consistent in this laudable approach to hearsay but alas people seldom are i find

    What's the point of this post?

    A big issue with the whole public/private sector rabbit hole these threads tend to go down is a reliance on hear say.

    Depending on the poster the private sector are paragons of efficency and cost/pay minimum wage cut corners with similar extremes about the public sector. I have no problem calling out posters on the transport sector as it is regulated by the NTA. The point about Bus Eireann not running on some of the more profitable inter City routes is due to bad management not spotting the opportunities and NTA regulations.

    Even when you look at the "public sector" as a whole it covers a wide range of different jobs and naturally is going to a wide variation in standards and have different issues. It's a complex debate and trying to paint posters into corners as anti public or private is insulting and stupid. Personally my exact position depends on the service in question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,676 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    An interesting question that always throws up differences of opinion.

    I suppose we are a fairly high tax country, with taxes and charges for many things. Value for money is not something pride ourselves on and the services we get on the end of our tax euro's is certainly not great at all. From Teachers to Gardai, who are some of the best paid in the world, yet do we get the best Teachers and Gardai in the world? Far from it.

    The crux of our society is that we try and please everyone. Try and reform something, well here is an extra €5k for your troubles as compensation, try and lower taxes, well here is an extra €5 for the OAP's as well. Try and raise a carbon tax, well here is a €300 grant so that you can continue to burn fossil fuels. No one ever wants to make hard choices.

    Our problems are entirely cultural. We are a post-colonial nation and it shows, where the British were the ones who took the big decisions and whether they were good or bad decisions we resented them for it. Now we run things ourselves, we have a peculiar notion that any change we make has to mean that everyone is happy and no one is left out or left disadvantaged. Water charges being an example, as well as property taxes.

    If you run a state on the premise that no one can be affected negatively by any change you want to enact, you can see that it's an impossible situation.

    The broadband debate was another example of this. Sure, its good that everyone especially in rural Ireland has access to broadband, but did anyone raise the issue of ribbon development and one-off housing, a unique notion in Ireland? The cost of broadband is a result of 40 years of not taking the bull by the horns in relation to the development of our countryside. If we took those hard decisions 40 years ago, rolling out broadband would have been infinitely cheaper.

    This type of thinking is endemic in society. The worst thing you can call someone in government is a Tory or Thatcherite. In other words, you are mean and British, not Irish who care for all. The media buys into this stuff too.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 71 ✭✭ZilkyG


    wiggle16 wrote: »
    I think it would be interesting to find out if the people who are adamant that they pay "too much tax" know what the tax rates are in other Western European countries and can evaluate them accordingly.

    https://salaryaftertax.com/ie

    You can use this to calculate salary after tax for alot of countries. France (notorious for high taxes), for example has much better and cheaper services, e.g €25 to see a doctor, €75 for a metro monthly ticket (which includes buses) and on a base salary of 60k, they are taxed €500 less per month than the Irish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Which would lead to private operators taking all the money making routes, running services when they felt like ,with whatever standards they feel like, killing off the competition and then scaling back on the services.

    No thanks!
    It's very easy for the licence to require the private company to provide routes in various areas, it doesn't stop the government from providing a competing service at a better price... the market will vote with their wallet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    They are all extensively regulated by the NTA
    Which actually makes me think of the other problem which is the likes of the taxi lobby who hold the country to ransom every time they don't get their way. Would love to see Uber/Lyft here which works so well in UK and US.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,992 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    We pay too much tax
    its wasted on terrible services
    its also wasted on rules ensuring better private operators are either completely banned or have to waste insane amounts of money to compete.

    There should be no infringment on a private operator competing, especially for transport and utilities.

    Our overall taxes are not high.

    They are below the EU average.

    PRSI in particular, is very low.

    Hundreds of thousands of earners pay 0% income tax on their earnings.

    However, our top MTR starts at a very low point, approx 35k. This may lead to the mistaken perception that our overall taxes are very high.

    Taking my parents as an anecdotal example, they pay 8-10% direct income tax on income of 50k approx, and in return they get:

    two medical cards
    two free travel passes
    free TV licence
    35 pm / 420pa off their electricity bill.

    No country in Europe is as generous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,992 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    We don't have very high taxes, but what we do have is very high prices.

    This is caused by:

    excessive profit margins
    high energy, legal and medical costs
    high insurance costs / crazy awards by Judges
    massive rents


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,019 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Geuze wrote: »
    Our overall taxes are not high.

    They are below the EU average.

    PRSI in particular, is very low.

    Hundreds of thousands of earners pay 0% income tax on their earnings.

    However, our top MTR starts at a very low point, approx 35k. This may lead to the mistaken perception that our overall taxes are very high.

    Taking my parents as an anecdotal example, they pay 8-10% direct income tax on income of 50k approx, and in return they get:

    two medical cards
    two free travel passes
    free TV licence
    35 pm / 420pa off their electricity bill.

    No country in Europe is as generous.


    Absolutely correct.

    We have extremely low taxes on incomes under 50k compared to the EU average. We have very high taxes on incomes between 50k and 100k. We have significantly above average taxes on incomes above that, though not as bad as the group below them as the MTR in other countries catches up.

    Nobody wants to hear that kind of message. The usual response is Denis O'Brien.

    On the other side, we have extremely generous social welfare and services targetted to particular groups, while general services to all remain poor.

    The net effect is that people earning over 50k, are paying very high taxes compared to other countries, but are getting very poor services in return compared to other countries, because of very restrictive means testing and income limits.




  • There should be no infringment on a private operator competing, especially for transport and utilities.

    Public transport is a vital service to the economy and society, it should not be viewed as a profit making venture as its benefits to the economy would be in free movement of people and (by reducing traffic) goods, driving the economy.

    Private companies will cherry pick routes and let others die.

    *Not saying that the current system is not grossly mismanaged and union crippled (said as a union-movement supporter)*


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,158 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    blanch152 wrote: »
    On the other side, we have extremely generous social welfare and services targetted to particular groups, while general services to all remain poor.

    Indeed, those who are paying most are arguably receiving the worst value.

    We have set up our taxation and welfare systems to achieve a very high income distribution. In fact we have one of the highest income distribution systems in Europe.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/ireland-has-one-of-best-rates-of-income-distribution-in-eu-841074.html

    I don't have an issue with the model in principle, but in reality it leads to all kinds of negative knock on effects.
    Our tax-base to too narrow for a start and we are very vulnerable to downturns.
    We have a bloated PS set up to re-distribute taxes which again is a huge drag in a downturn - the borrowing during the recession to pay for day to day running of the PS and Welfare made the banking bailout look like the Teddy Bear's picnic.
    We have also created a class of welfare junkies that are disincentivsed to find work.

    There's been no national conversation about this either - it's something that every major political party seems to adhere to and the only opposition to it are the hard-left, that would like to do even more of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    TCM wrote: »
    So what you're proposing is that private bus operators, for example, should be allowed compete on all profitable routes and leave those routes that might be loss making to public operators.

    Enlighten me!

    That's it in a nutshell.
    Look at the broadband issue. If there's no profit or not enough they aren't bothered, (buses or broadband etc.) and why should they?
    Services to the public are about value to the tax payer not profits we might see disappear down a hole due to incompetence or cronyism IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Indeed, those who are paying most are arguably receiving the worst value.

    ...

    That's the way it should be.
    What use has someone with a great salary for emergency housing, (although the time will come)? What use have they for food banks or welfare? Of course some benefit more than others. From cycling a bike and not paying road tax to subsidising museums even if you've no interest.
    The whole point is that workers pay taxes to provide services for society and the more you earn the more you pay. It's a great idea IMO.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,676 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Geuze wrote: »
    Our overall taxes are not high.

    They are below the EU average.

    PRSI in particular, is very low.

    Hundreds of thousands of earners pay 0% income tax on their earnings.

    However, our top MTR starts at a very low point, approx 35k. This may lead to the mistaken perception that our overall taxes are very high.

    Taking my parents as an anecdotal example, they pay 8-10% direct income tax on income of 50k approx, and in return they get:

    two medical cards
    two free travel passes
    free TV licence
    35 pm / 420pa off their electricity bill.

    No country in Europe is as generous.

    The tax take is directly aimed at taking money away from middle and higher income owners and distributing it to those who vote in large numbers, that is the older folks among us.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,261 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    When it comes to taxation, it's quite tricky to compare like with like. There's tendency to focus on just income tax rates without taking into account allowances, credits and, the big one, social security contributions. We've a relatively high rate of income tax compared to a lot of countries, but PRSI contributions are fairly low.

    According to the latest OECD figures, the tax wedge for the average Irish worker is well below the OECD average.

    And that's just the tax on wages. We get off fairly lightly in terms of property and municipal taxes here:

    figure-1-web-full.PNG


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,158 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    That's the way it should be.
    What use has someone with a great salary for emergency housing, (although the time will come)? What use have they for food banks or welfare? Of course some benefit more than others. From cycling a bike and not paying road tax to subsidising museums even if you've no interest.
    The whole point is that workers pay taxes to provide services for society and the more you earn the more you pay. It's a great idea IMO.

    You do get that is not what most taxes go on?

    Health, Education, Infrastructure. These are the areas where investment should be prioritised and which would benefit all citizens equally.

    Sticking an extra €5 into the old age pension or caving into PS pay demands is unsustainable and nothing more than vote-buying exercises.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    You do get that is not what most taxes go on?

    Health, Education, Infrastructure. These are the areas where investment should be prioritised and which would benefit all citizens equally.

    Sticking an extra €5 into the old age pension or caving into PS pay demands is unsustainable and nothing more than vote-buying exercises.

    Just pointing out that some need avail of tax funded services more than others. I wouldn't put that down as losing out or not getting as much back.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭Dog Man Star


    I live in Australia. My income tax is about 35% on average. With that we get free healthcare, free home visits if kids are ill (just dial a number anytime). Public transport is expensive, but great and policed. Rates are ok, nothing is expensive, as my salary is high. All public areas have gardeners on a weekly basis. There is no litter and no graffiti (WA). It is a beautiful place to live for families.

    When I lived in Ireland (and UK), there is a different attitude to some of these things. No money ever invested in playgrounds. In UK regularly encounter broken glass all over playground. No transport police in UK nor Ireland. If something happens to you, tough. We will catch them with CCTV.

    Healthcare in the UK good, not as good as Australia. but 20 minute wait at best. In Ireland, truly dreadful. Visit to GP was 50 eur no matter what.A&E total nightmare.

    The Irish attitude of "it could be worse" or "why don't you move" works, but the people who say that are kidding themselves. The Luas is a decent service, but it's reach is pathetic compared to Manchester's Metro. The DART is good, but again pathetic compared to most rail in Britain. Irish people need to stop this "it's grand" policy and start to stand up for themselves.

    But hey, I live in Australia, so I am a quitter! And a very smug quitter at that, life is too short to live in Ireland. Visit, yes....don't live there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭ Treasure Refined Font


    But hey, I live in Australia, so I am a quitter! And a very smug quitter at that, life is too short to live in Ireland. Visit, yes....don't live there.
    What a load of bollox. Ireland has issues, but generally speaking, it's a great county in comparison to most places in the World. Even better with the smug quitters out of the place :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    When it comes to taxation, it's quite tricky to compare like with like. There's tendency to focus on just income tax rates without taking into account allowances, credits and, the big one, social security contributions. We've a relatively high rate of income tax compared to a lot of countries, but PRSI contributions are fairly low.

    According to the latest OECD figures, the tax wedge for the average Irish worker is well below the OECD average.

    And that's just the tax on wages. We get off fairly lightly in terms of property and municipal taxes here:

    figure-1-web-full.PNG

    The average Irish income tax is lowered by the fact that very little tax is paid by low income earners. People pay tax on minimum wage in Denmark.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,019 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The average Irish income tax is lowered by the fact that very little tax is paid by low income earners. People pay tax on minimum wage in Denmark.


    You are correct. There was a more in-depth comparison a couple of years ago which looked at something like 70% of average income, average income, and 120% of average income, and we went from nearly the lowest to nearly the highest as we changed categories.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,019 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Indeed, those who are paying most are arguably receiving the worst value.

    We have set up our taxation and welfare systems to achieve a very high income distribution. In fact we have one of the highest income distribution systems in Europe.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/ireland-has-one-of-best-rates-of-income-distribution-in-eu-841074.html

    I don't have an issue with the model in principle, but in reality it leads to all kinds of negative knock on effects.
    Our tax-base to too narrow for a start and we are very vulnerable to downturns.
    We have a bloated PS set up to re-distribute taxes which again is a huge drag in a downturn - the borrowing during the recession to pay for day to day running of the PS and Welfare made the banking bailout look like the Teddy Bear's picnic.
    We have also created a class of welfare junkies that are disincentivsed to find work.

    There's been no national conversation about this either - it's something that every major political party seems to adhere to and the only opposition to it are the hard-left, that would like to do even more of it.

    The public service is not that big compared to other countries.

    The problem is more in the services provided relative to welfare spend.

    In other countries, they don't spend as much on child benefit, but they spend an awful lot more on state-supported child-minding, school uniform and school books for all, school meals etc.

    So, in the round, we spend a similar amount, but by handing the money directly to parents, it can be spent on ski holidays, car loans, or just drank and injected.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Geuze wrote: »
    We don't have very high taxes, but what we do have is very high prices.

    This is caused by:

    excessive profit margins
    high energy, legal and medical costs
    high insurance costs / crazy awards by Judges
    massive rents

    Legal costs have absolutely nothing to do with the taxpayer... the vast majority are private costs and in comparison to like jurisdictions (UK, USA, Canada) legal fees here are much lower.


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