No Plastic campaign

lawred2 · 15-04-2019 2:17pm

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

<Deleted post>

I recycle because it's cheaper than putting that stuff in my black bin

Strange thing to be getting upset about

Charles Ingles · 15-04-2019 2:20pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Why should Diageo get praise for that?

Surely there is still unnecessary cardboard around 4 cans?
Why not just offer 4 cans for a certain price, and the customer can put 4 separate cans in their basket?

Its not like carrying 4 cans is rocket science.

We need to cut out all unnecessary packaging surely?

Maybe they could make one large can that holds the volume of four separate cans save a lot on packaging easy to carry as well

NIMAN · 15-04-2019 2:24pm

Look, bottom line is that there are loads of ways we could make significant savings in the amount of waste we produce, if the political will is there.

Also needs buy-in from the public too.

I take a lot of these protests and campaigns with a pinch of salt, cos the same people out marching now won't walk the length of themselves, love foreign travel, need to change their phone every year or 18 months, have 3 or 4 TVs at home, buy disposable nappies etc etc. It does at times feel like its a hot topic because they saw it on Facebook or Twitter.

Many moons ago I remember saying to friends that if climate change was so dangerous, then why don't Governments simply outlaw any standard car (for public use) with an engine above 1600cc or whatever. Of course there will always be exceptions to rules, but do we need 4, 5 and 6 litre cars that get 15mpg?

Look at the clothes industry. Must be a massive polluter. Yet we are conditioned to change our clothes with 'fashion' trends, just cos someone tells us our jeans or top is 'so last year'. Do all these campaigners wear their clothes until they fall apart? Not a chance.

What about mobile phones? We now have billions of these in the world, many people want a new one annually? Even though there is no great upgrade in its ability. Again, many of the campaigners will be like this.

We can either want proper change or just the bits that suit us cos we are finding whales with plastic in their stomachs. Its not a time to be selective. There are things that could be addressed now that will be the new movement in 5, 10, 15 years time. Why not do it all now?? Because there really isn't the will to do it, thats why. We have become too cosy in our pampered lives to want to give up luxuries.

There was a guy on the Frankie Boyle show last night, and he said basically that the capitalist model isn't sustainable in todays world. We talk and demand GDP growth. He was saying that 3% growth annually is something like a doubling of output every 20 or 25years. And the earth can't sustain that. IF anything we don't need growth at all, we just need to maintain ourselves as a species, and GDP isn't compatible with these campaigns.

The Satanist · 15-04-2019 2:30pm

I always wondered why glass bottles can't just be washed and reused. It seems like it is an enormous waste of energy taking the bottles from a bottle bank, breaking them down, melting then remaking then into exactly the same thing they were (or whatever the processes are).

Good jib! · 15-04-2019 2:37pm

@The Satanist

It is a waste. It's obviously better to just wash a bottle than break it and have to remake it. The disadvantage is setting up or maintaining the logistics network.

It's doable (works very well in Germany, for example), put for it to work in Ireland all the infrastructure would need to be put in place from scratch (a collection point wherever you bought the bottles, refunding the deposit, sending the different bottles back to the different bottling plants for washing and reuse...). And it all needs to be set up more or less at the same time, so it would take a huge push to put that in place.

Tell me how · 15-04-2019 2:58pm

NIMAN wrote: »

We can either want proper change or just the bits that suit us cos we are finding whales with plastic in their stomachs. Its not a time to be selective. There are things that could be addressed now that will be the new movement in 5, 10, 15 years time. Why not do it all now?? Because there really isn't the will to do it, thats why. We have become too cosy in our pampered lives to want to live up luxuries.

There was a guy on the Frankie Boyle show last night, and he said basically that the capitalist model isn't sustainable in todays world. We talk and demand GDP growth. He was saying that 3% growth annually is something like a doubling of output every 20 or 25years. And the earth can't sustain that. IF anything we don't need growth at all, we just need to maintain ourselves as a species, and GDP isn't compatible with these campaigns.

That is the reality of it. We cannot keep talking about growth and also suggesting we need to do something to slow down damage to the environment.

Something is going to have to give and it seems that it will take a radical fundamental shift in societal focus, and motivation if it the shift is going to move to protecting the environment.

15-04-2019 3:00pm

Good jib! wrote: »

@The Satanist

It is a waste. It's obviously better to just wash a bottle than break it and have to remake it. The disadvantage is setting up or maintaining the logistics network.

It's doable (works very well in Germany, for example), put for it to work in Ireland all the infrastructure would need to be put in place from scratch (a collection point wherever you bought the bottles, refunding the deposit, sending the different bottles back to the different bottling plants for washing and reuse...). And it all needs to be set up more or less at the same time, so it would take a huge push to put that in place.

Pubs do it for their own stock too

tricky D · 15-04-2019 3:02pm

The stuff is now getting inside us from our food, all the while causing cancer from within.

Thing is though that plastic is wonderful material partly for the reasons it is so damaging, and removing it from supply chains for perishables is often not viable, so we need to come up with a much better alternative. It needs to be replaced as reduction, reuse and recycling rates are awful.

NIMAN · 15-04-2019 3:07pm

The Satanist wrote: »

I always wondered why glass bottles can't just be washed and reused. It seems like it is an enormous waste of energy taking the bottles from a bottle bank, breaking them down, melting then remaking then into exactly the same thing they were (or whatever the processes are).

Did we not do it in the 70s/early 80s?

I remember taking glass bottles back to the local shop for a refund.

Tell me how · 15-04-2019 3:21pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Did we not do it in the 70s/early 80s?

I remember taking glass bottles back to the local shop for a refund.

That was probably before the explosion of plastic containers. The cost of such is still going to be cheaper that glass re-use or even more sustainable use, even the logistical impact of returning bottles need to be considered.

Maybe if some produce was offered for sale via some sort of pump outlet so that someone could bring their own containers and refill them in the shop. This is something which I think should be offered more for still water instead of evian/River rock bottles etc. If there was a station near the tea/coffee station where people could fill their refillable container, it would reduce the number of plastic bottles. This would be easier manage than maybe something for milk distribution which would need more intensive and frequent cleaning.

ZiabR · 15-04-2019 3:26pm

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

I’m getting tired of all the fake outrage about plastic.

Sorry, what? Fake outrage about plastic?

You are either one of two things, a troll looking to stir the hornets nest for a laugh or you are so uneducated that you cannot fathom the damage single use plastics do to the earth through its production, release into the environment and its inability to breakdown naturally.

I do recycle, and I do actively make an effort to keep my patch clean. Sadly I have missed the boat, but I am trying to make a change for my children and my childrens children. I shudder to think of the world they will grow up in.

Grow up.

my3cents · 15-04-2019 3:28pm

Tell me how wrote: »

That was probably before the explosion of plastic containers. The cost of such is still going to be cheaper that glass re-use or even more sustainable use, even the logistical impact of returning bottles need to be considered.

Maybe if some produce was offered for sale via some sort of pump outlet so that someone could bring their own containers and refill them in the shop. This is something which I think should be offered more for still water instead of evian/River rock bottles etc. If there was a station near the tea/coffee station where people could fill their refillable container, it would reduce the number of plastic bottles. This would be easier manage than maybe something for milk distribution which would need more intensive and frequent cleaning.

There was a company doing water refills about 10 years ago. You put you bottle under the tap put money in and it filled the bottle. Think it lasted 6 months in the local SV. Unless you have massive tankers refilling tanks in supermarkets then that sort of system is going to rely on filtered tap water which can't possibly be as good as plastic bottled spring water

Stoner · 15-04-2019 3:28pm

I think the toys in happy meals should be looked at too.

Lots little bits of plastic, kids play with them for a few days before moving on.

duffman3833 · 15-04-2019 3:49pm

Its all has to start with the manufacturers. If they can produce more eco friendly packaging, or even more eco friendly products than that will make a huge difference.
Half the stuff in supermarkets as an example don't need plastic packaging.
Fruit, pack of sponges, beer in packs etc
Start at the source and it will trickle down

Tell me how · 15-04-2019 3:57pm

duffman3833 wrote: »

Its all has to start with the manufacturers. If they can produce more eco friendly packaging, or even more eco friendly products than that will make a huge difference.
Half the stuff in supermarkets as an example don't need plastic packaging.
Fruit, pack of sponges, beer in packs etc
Start at the source and it will trickle down

Packaging serves at least 4 functions.

To keep food in set quantities
To make it easier to ship without getting damaged
To preserve it for as long as possible
To catch the eye and stand out on the shelf.

In theory all packaging could be the same colour and made of the same material but there would be uproar amongst manufacturers if they were forced to lose something which they see as part of their brand.

Rubberchikken · 15-04-2019 4:05pm

for years we bought easter eggs encased in plastic inner to protect egg.
it seems it was completely unnecessary.
it shows that things can be repackaged in an environmentally friendly way if thought was put into it.

8mv · 15-04-2019 4:19pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Did we not do it in the 70s/early 80s?

I remember taking glass bottles back to the local shop for a refund.

Yes - that was my first part-time job in Superquinns, separating all the returned soft drink bottles into boxes for C&C, Coca Cola, etc. Filthy job but necessary at the time and maybe more so now. I'd say the OP is trolling, but it is gratifying to see the positive responses here.

SozBbz · 15-04-2019 4:23pm

The whole plastics industry is so complex - its a byproduct of the oil/gas industry so its going to be a difficult to erradicate as there are so many lobby groups with vested interests.

I am making moves to be more sustainable - stopping buying fast fashion, choosing loose fruit and veg etc, avoiding packaging where I can. I used to drink a lot of sparking water in plastic bottles but since the start of this year I bought myself a sodastream so have been making my own sparkling water at home and the carbon dioxide canisters are refillable much like gas canisters for a BBQ/heater etc.

I do sometimes post on social media about my efforts (I am not a major social media user by the way) but primarily its because (a) humans are influenced by other humans and even if I get one of my friends to think about their choices, thats an improvement but also (b) brands need to realise that there is a market out there for sustainable products and that consumers want change. Once brands see that using sustainable materials and recyclable packaging makes good business sense, they will move to be in line with the consumer.

I do think that government needs to do more in terms of policy to charge supermarkets for the waste they create rather than put all the focus on the end consumer. Do bananas really need to be sold in a plastic bag? Those who create the waste should also pay towards the costs of dealing with it.

two wheels good · 15-04-2019 5:17pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

I'm part of a nationwide beach clean up group. PM me if you want to join up with one of the clean ups and I can school you in person. You'll see for your self what's being washed up and how old some of the plastics are.

I'll join a beach clean-up but can I be taught instead of schooled. I think I've mastered the basics of picking things up so I've a head start.
Point me at a website please. Cork/West Cork area

two wheels good · 15-04-2019 5:22pm

A point of information:
Repak is not a govt body. It's a business or trade body; which explains why they're always claiming that they already do enough and try to thwart any new initiative that might inflict cost on their members e.g a deposit return scheme for drinks containers (which is implemented very successfully in many other countries incl. approx a dozen US states)

Sam Russell · 15-04-2019 5:34pm

The Satanist wrote: »

I always wondered why glass bottles can't just be washed and reused. It seems like it is an enormous waste of energy taking the bottles from a bottle bank, breaking them down, melting then remaking then into exactly the same thing they were (or whatever the processes are).

Glass bottles could be reused, and used to be. The problem is that bottles are no longer generic. Also, most glass containers originate from outside the state.

When milk bottles were in daily use, they were delivered to your door, and the empties were collected. washed and reused. The dairy asked that they be rinsed and returned so that cleaning was easy. Bottles would average over 100 journeys. Supermarkets refused to use glass because of fears of claims due to breakages causing injury. This caused the demise of the milk bottle.

Second problem is that jam jars are all different sizes. They used all to be one pound, but the have shrunk to 12 ounces, and less. Honey jars are smaller because honey is denser. Also, they are shaped to identify the brand.

Recycling bottles is worthwhile because it saves energy, but the bottles must be separated by colour. Some recycled glass is necessary to make new glass, and the higher glass content the cheaper the glass manufacturing is.

Currently, there is no glass manufacturing plants in Ireland, although Quinn glass had a plant in NI.

Sam Russell · 15-04-2019 5:45pm

Mod: Some posts deleted.

Please do not troll, it is not appreciated.

Del.Monte · 15-04-2019 7:26pm

The Satanist wrote: »

I always wondered why glass bottles can't just be washed and reused. It seems like it is an enormous waste of energy taking the bottles from a bottle bank, breaking them down, melting then remaking then into exactly the same thing they were (or whatever the processes are).

They used to be. Time was that it was hard to buy items like bottles of milk without returning an empty one - ditto with milk deliveries. As for deposit schemes - anybody in Ireland over the age of 40/50 would have grown up with them. Plastic in many forms such as drinks containers needs to be banned outright.

two wheels good · 16-04-2019 11:35am

The OP has been deleted! Was that really necessary? A few carefully deployed asterisks would have worked.

Apart from any notion of freedom of speech...
The pettiness and small-minded thinking expressed in the post demonstrates that a section of the public cannot be relied-upon to respond
to the crisis of plastic waste.
Govt legislation is essential. Although I think the EU may be the best hope for that.

Sam Russell · 16-04-2019 1:42pm

two wheels good wrote: »

The OP has been deleted! Was that really necessary? A few carefully deployed asterisks would have worked.

Apart from any notion of freedom of speech...
The pettiness and small-minded thinking expressed in the post demonstrates that a section of the public cannot be relied-upon to respond
to the crisis of plastic waste.
Govt legislation is essential. Although I think the EU may be the best hope for that.

Sorry if I appear heavy handed.

It is not intended to be an attack on free speech, but just an attempt at controlling tone and trolling. The alternative would be to lock the thread or delete the thread altogether. Now that might be an attack on those posters who have contributed to the thread.

Nikki Sixx · 17-04-2019 6:24am

I think people misunderstood me. If you want to recycle do it quietly and I’ve no problem with that. Just like you wouldn’t ram your religious views down somebody throat, don’t ram your views on plastic down somebody’s throat.

SozBbz · 17-04-2019 11:26am

Nikki Sixx wrote: »

I think people misunderstood me. If you want to recycle do it quietly and I’ve no problem with that. Just like you wouldn’t ram your religious views down somebody throat, don’t ram your views on plastic down somebody’s throat.

Thats a totally different scenario. A persons religious beliefs are not dependent on everyone around them also being religious.

It is incumbent on us all to assess the damage we as a people are doing to our planet. Raising awareness of how damaging seemingly innocuous products can be is really important to make change happen. For example, lots of people now use keep cups as opposed to single use takeaway coffee cups. They're a particularly good example as a lot of people assumed they were made of paper and therefore recyclable - it took people talking about the environmental impact to change behaviors.

Does it just suit you better to bury your head in the sand? Is it inconvenient to hear the damage your lifestyle choices does to the planet?

Sam Russell · 17-04-2019 12:47pm

Sixty years ago, fruit and vegetables were distributed in wooden boxes (called bushels) and these were returned for reuse. Bananas were shipped in wooden coffins and returned for reuse. Milk was delivered in glass bottles that were returned for reuse. Potatoes were distributed in hessian sacks. Oranges were shipped in orange boxes which were made of light timber and were not reused, but made great firewood. A lot of fruit and vegetables were locally sourced.

Today, vegetables are packed in poly bags in bigger plastic bags. Oranges are distributed in plastic string bags in cardboard boxes. Potatoes in paper bags that include plastic that makes the packaging non-recyclable. Milk comes in tetrapak or poly bottles. Bananas now ship in cardboard coffins that are not returned, but lots of poly sheets are part of the package. Recently, there has been a move away from polystyrene which is very hard to do anything with as far as recycling is concerned. Tetrapak cartons are also hard to deal with.

Modern packages are designed for the purposes of retail shops - basically so that they do not sell by weight but by item. It is mainly driven by supermarkets.

It would help if there were enforced standards for packaging that made recycling easy. We need to rethink all of this, because plastic waste is killing the planet.

whiskeyman · 17-04-2019 12:51pm

Enforcement is the only way.
The consumer tries to flex their muscle, but a lot of the results are 'token' efforts like plastic straws being banned.
I'm doing research in this area, and the 'concern - behaviour gap' is very evident. We all like to think we'll make a difference, but when it comes to our shopping behaviour, most of us don't practice as we preach. Consumers need legislation to come in to force manufactures / retailers to change.
We needed it for the plastic bag tax and it worked.

Another very interesting debate in this area of the 'backlash on plastics' is the area of foodwaste. There are arguments that plastic packaging help in reducing food waste, which is itself potentially a bigger environmental issue than that of plastic waste.

Sam Russell · 17-04-2019 12:53pm

whiskeyman wrote: »

Enforcement is the only way.
The consumer tries to flex their muscle, but a lot of the results are 'token' efforts like plastic straws being banned.
I'm doing research in this area, and the 'concern - behaviour gap' is very evident. We all like to think we'll make a difference, but when it comes to our shopping behaviour, most of us don't practice as we preach. Consumers need legislation to come in to force manufactures / retailers to change.
We needed it for the plastic bag tax and it worked.

Another very interesting debate in this area of the 'backlash on plastics' is the area of foodwaste. There are arguments that plastic packaging help in reducing food waste, which is itself potentially a bigger environmental issue than that of plastic waste.

I think the 'Buy one get one free' is a major problem.

No Plastic campaign

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