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General Rugby Discussion II

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  • #6692
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    David Corkery once again calling for structural change needed in AIL. Not sure many clubs would agree with changes
    Thoughts?
    https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/New-Sundays-Well-coach-David-Corkery-argues-structural-change-needed-in-AIL-02550b7a-b0e2-4fba-8e16-4027efb67543-ds

    He's certainly not going to win many fans of the lower teams saying things like "I believe from division 2A down rugby is really recreational stuff for the players involved".

    Probably a bit of a slap in the face to some of the lads who would take playing in those divisions quite seriously and would probably have aspirations of getting up into 1A or 1B. Especially considering you have the likes of Do

    His whole point of saying throw more funding at division 1 as they'll only be the teams providing players to provinces is in a similar vein, as I'm sure there's young lads coming up through the setups as well who'd have that goal in mind. It sort of sounds like he's expecting to be coaching a J2 side.


  • #6693
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    David Corkery once again calling for structural change needed in AIL. Not sure many clubs would agree with changes
    Thoughts?
    https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/New-Sundays-Well-coach-David-Corkery-argues-structural-change-needed-in-AIL-02550b7a-b0e2-4fba-8e16-4027efb67543-ds

    Personally I would scrap Div 2C, it would save clubs money and should in theory strengthen the provincial leagues. It might even strengthen the other AIL clubs, as the best players at 2C level might move to 2B or 2A clubs.

    5 leagues is overkill IMO.

    Another way of putting it is what are the advantages of 5 AIL leagues?


  • #6694
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    He's certainly not going to win many fans of the lower teams saying things like "I believe from division 2A down rugby is really recreational stuff for the players involved".

    Probably a bit of a slap in the face to some of the lads who would take playing in those divisions quite seriously and would probably have aspirations of getting up into 1A or 1B. Especially considering you have the likes of Do

    You seriously think anyone playing Div 2 AIL is going to be able to make a profession out of professional rugby?


  • #6695
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    He's certainly not going to win many fans of the lower teams saying things like "I believe from division 2A down rugby is really recreational stuff for the players involved".

    Probably a bit of a slap in the face to some of the lads who would take playing in those divisions quite seriously and would probably have aspirations of getting up into 1A or 1B. Especially considering you have the likes of Do

    His whole point of saying throw more funding at division 1 as they'll only be the teams providing players to provinces is in a similar vein, as I'm sure there's young lads coming up through the setups as well who'd have that goal in mind. It sort of sounds like he's expecting to be coaching a J2 side.
    very much agree. His proposal would just see few clubs at top get more players from clubs lower down chain who wouldnt be able to
    bilston wrote: »
    Personally I would scrap Div 2C, it would save clubs money and should in theory strengthen the provincial leagues. It might even strengthen the other AIL clubs, as the best players at 2C level might move to 2B or 2A clubs.

    5 leagues is overkill IMO.

    Another way of putting it is what are the advantages of 5 AIL leagues?
    I think we could reduce down to 4 divisions. Having around a quarter of all clubs in Ireland as senior is bit much.
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    You seriously think anyone playing Div 2 AIL is going to be able to make a profession out of professional rugby?
    there is plenty playing 2A and even 2B who have turned pro and been quite successful especially those in Connacht and Ulster who dont have many or any clubs in division 1.
    I saw Ultan Dillane play division 2 AIL about 3/4 months before he made his Irish debut in the 6nations for example.


  • #6696
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    You seriously think anyone playing Div 2 AIL is going to be able to make a profession out of professional rugby?

    Very much the case out west when you have the likes of Corinthians, Buccaneers, Galwegians all playing Div 2, and even the likes of Dolphins and UL Bohs in Munster, or QUB and Rainey OB up north.

    There'll be a lot of young lads coming out of schools or clubs who won't get picked up by provincial setups and will choose to play with the closest team they can.

    I think closing that avenue off would be lunacy for any province other than Leinster.


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  • #6697
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    I saw Ultan Dillane play division 2 AIL about 3/4 months before he made his Irish debut in the 6nations for example.

    He was already a professional player at the time though. Has anyone "worked up through the ranks" from Div2 to professional?

    It is a genuine question - I don't know the answer but I imagine it would be highly improbable. Div2 AIL is for the most part, and absolutely should be, "recreational" in the sense that they should not have professional players. It is just not sustainable otherwise.


  • #6698
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    He was already a professional player at the time though. Has anyone "worked up through the ranks" from Div2 to professional?

    It is a genuine question - I don't know the answer but I imagine it would be highly improbable. Div2 AIL is for the most part, and absolutely should be, "recreational" in the sense that they should not have professional players. It is just not sustainable otherwise.

    Numerous examples however, as soon as a player gets an Academy contract they are "forced" to sign for a Division 1 A/B club .

    So quite a few players played their 1st season or two in Div 2 or lower clubs before moving upwards - I don't think any have gone directly from a Div 2 club to a Pro Contract though because of the rules above regarding Academy players.


  • #6699
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    He was already a professional player at the time though. Has anyone "worked up through the ranks" from Div2 to professional?

    It is a genuine question - I don't know the answer but I imagine it would be highly improbable. Div2 AIL is for the most part, and absolutely should be, "recreational" in the sense that they should not have professional players. It is just not sustainable otherwise.

    I wouldn't bet the house on it, but I'd say there's a fair chance Iain Henderson played 2A (not sure off the top of my head if the current structure existed back in 2010-2012?) for Queens when he first left school


  • #6700
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    bilston wrote: »
    I wouldn't bet the house on it, but I'd say there's a fair chance Iain Henderson played 2A (not sure off the top of my head if the current structure existed back in 2010-2012?) for Queens when he first left school
    Henderson would have played with queens back then and there ia plenty who've went pro abroad who were playing division 2 before moving


  • #6701
    testtech05
    Registered Users Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭testtech05


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    He was already a professional player at the time though. Has anyone "worked up through the ranks" from Div2 to professional?

    It is a genuine question - I don't know the answer but I imagine it would be highly improbable. Div2 AIL is for the most part, and absolutely should be, "recreational" in the sense that they should not have professional players. It is just not sustainable otherwise.

    Brian Murphy from Galwegians earned himself a 2 year contract with Connacht back in 2012 off the back of his performances in the AIL, although I am not sure which division 'Wegians would have been in at the time he certainly would have been in the "worked up through the ranks" category and was 26/27 yrs old at the time.


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  • #6702
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,632 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    https://twitter.com/FoyChris/status/1268432012278448128?s=19


  • #6703
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Anyone listen to the latest episode of House of Rugby where they had Sam Burgess on?

    Went into the 2015 World Cup and his departure from Bath with a good bit more detail than came out at the time. Was pretty scathing in terms of Mike Ford's actions at the time, said it was clear that Mike was angling for the England job and was petty in terms of how he treated George getting put on the bench for the Wales game which in turn had a big knock-on effect in the dressing room.

    Obviously just one side of the story but was great to listen to.


  • #6704
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Anyone listen to the latest episode of House of Rugby where they had Sam Burgess on?

    Went into the 2015 World Cup and his departure from Bath with a good bit more detail than came out at the time. Was pretty scathing in terms of Mike Ford's actions at the time, said it was clear that Mike was angling for the England job and was petty in terms of how he treated George getting put on the bench for the Wales game which in turn had a big knock-on effect in the dressing room.

    Obviously just one side of the story but was great to listen to.

    The BBC Sport website was carrying this as their second main story last night so I read a bit. Will have a listen tonight when I'm out running.

    It's mad thinking how Burgess was so badly scapegoated for that 2015 debacle. Especially when you consider they were beating Wales by 10 points when he was substituted in that match for George Ford and then was dropped for the Australia game.


  • #6705
    RugbyLover123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,564 ✭✭✭RugbyLover123


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Anyone listen to the latest episode of House of Rugby where they had Sam Burgess on?

    Went into the 2015 World Cup and his departure from Bath with a good bit more detail than came out at the time. Was pretty scathing in terms of Mike Ford's actions at the time, said it was clear that Mike was angling for the England job and was petty in terms of how he treated George getting put on the bench for the Wales game which in turn had a big knock-on effect in the dressing room.

    Obviously just one side of the story but was great to listen to.

    Thought he came across well. Bit mad how he ended up being in the England squad as I’m not sure how deserving of his place he was and he wasn’t very aware of some of the rules. But I don’t think he was at fault for their early exit.

    I had always assumed there was a problem with himself and Lancaster and maybe Farrell/Haskell/Robshaw but he didn’t have anything bad to say about Lancaster. It was very interesting that he pretty much hung Mike and George Ford out to dry, two people I wouldn’t have thought at the time would’ve had a much of a say.

    The environment of that English team didn’t seem great from what he was saying anyway, about people bitching about what was said in the leadership meetings afterwards. I suppose the lack of leadership was the downfall of the team in the end.

    Main thing I took from it is I don’t see how Lancaster is so well spoken of from Leinster players. Maybe he has taken a lot from his time at england. But any interviews I’ve seen from that English team have him as a nice hard working coach but weren’t impressed by him as a coach. Half the squad seemed to be in the leadership meetings, which changed regularly, he had meetings for meetings and it was not an environment where people could speak up and honestly.


  • #6706
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    RugbyLover123 wrote: »
    Thought he came across well. Bit mad how he ended up being in the England squad as I’m not sure how deserving of his place he was and he wasn’t very aware of some of the rules. But I don’t think he was at fault for their early exit.

    I had always assumed there was a problem with himself and Lancaster and maybe Farrell/Haskell/Robshaw but he didn’t have anything bad to say about Lancaster. It was very interesting that he pretty much hung Mike and George Ford out to dry, two people I wouldn’t have thought at the time would’ve had a much of a say.

    The environment of that English team didn’t seem great from what he was saying anyway, about people bitching about what was said in the leadership meetings afterwards. I suppose the lack of leadership was the downfall of the team in the end.

    Main thing I took from it is I don’t see how Lancaster is so well spoken of from Leinster players. Maybe he has taken a lot from his time at england. But any interviews I’ve seen from that English team have him as a nice hard working coach but weren’t impressed by him as a coach. Half the squad seemed to be in the leadership meetings, which changed regularly, he had meetings for meetings and it was not an environment where people could speak up and honestly.

    I think the thing about Lancaster is that he isn't a "dominant" personality - He's not the guy that commands the room. He was surrounded by big personalities both in his coaching team and in the squad and I don't think he handled that dynamic very well.
    I don't think he was really ever able to establish an "alpha" position within that group which led to the cliques and in-fighting etc.

    On a rugby level he is clearly excellent and his abilities one on one with players appears to be top notch. He's thriving in the Leinster set-up as he's being left to do the things that he's really good at and that in itself has brought him gravitas . Also , there was already a clearly established healthy group dynamic when he arrived so he didn't have to try to fix that side of things , and if there was , he had Cullen and others to do that stuff.


  • #6707
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    RugbyLover123 wrote: »
    Main thing I took from it is I don’t see how Lancaster is so well spoken of from Leinster players. Maybe he has taken a lot from his time at england. But any interviews I’ve seen from that English team have him as a nice hard working coach but weren’t impressed by him as a coach. Half the squad seemed to be in the leadership meetings, which changed regularly, he had meetings for meetings and it was not an environment where people could speak up and honestly.

    Think that's mainly down to the role he has in Leinster compared to being the head coach, where he wouldn't necessarily have to drive those sort of things and just worry more about the on the field stuff.


  • #6708
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Michael Fatialofa left hospital today back walking after being paralyzed from the clash he took back in January.

    Just in case anyone wanted to hear a good news story!


  • #6709
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,174 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Ben Spencer confirmed as leaving Saracens for Bath. Significant loss for them. Wigglesworth won't be there by the time they come back up (if even next season) which is going to have a major impact on their strength overall.


  • #6710
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Buer wrote: »
    Ben Spencer confirmed as leaving Saracens for Bath. Significant loss for them. Wigglesworth won't be there by the time they come back up (if even next season) which is going to have a major impact on their strength overall.

    Aled Davies isnt a bad replacement

    and Day is a decent back up, though i expect wigglesworth may stay around for next season at least. Between the three of them they should be comfortable enough... and they have sam bryan coming through in the academy i think,... who is well thoughtof


  • #6711
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Packed out stadiums this weekend in NZ expected!

    Highlanders v Chiefs at 8am on Sat morning on Sky!

    How exciting is this!!!


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  • #6712
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,469 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    I see Jefferson Poirot has retired from international rugby.

    I suppose with the way his name sounds, that sort of information was always bound to leak ...


  • #6713
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    I see Jefferson Poirot has retired from international rugby.

    I suppose with the way his name sounds, that sort of information was always bound to leak ...

    That seems very odd. Only 27 and part of the new young French squad.


  • #6714
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Bazzo wrote: »
    That seems very odd. Only 27 and part of the new young French squad.

    Said it was "due to motivational issues" and that he "made the decision in a fraction of a second" after the Wales game in the RWC.

    Sounds like he wasn't happy with how things played out at the RWC and never picked up after that. Still very strange to throw in the towel so early.


  • #6715
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Said it was "due to motivational issues" and that he "made the decision in a fraction of a second" after the Wales game in the RWC.

    Sounds like he wasn't happy with how things played out at the RWC and never picked up after that. Still very strange to throw in the towel so early.

    Especially considering he played a decent part in their current resurgent 6 nations campaign.


  • #6716
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,134 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Said it was "due to motivational issues" and that he "made the decision in a fraction of a second" after the Wales game in the RWC.

    Sounds like he wasn't happy with how things played out at the RWC and never picked up after that. Still very strange to throw in the towel so early.

    The only way he could be more French is if he was wearing a beret at the time, and carrying some bread!


  • #6717
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,632 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Alex Lozowski will leave Saracens at the end of the season to join Montpellier.


  • #6718
    yerrahbah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    Clegg wrote: »
    Alex Lozowski will leave Saracens at the end of the season to join Montpellier.

    I remember himself and Barritt were brilliant in the final last year

    He'll be a loss

    Ah apparently he's heading back to Saracens after 1 year in Montpellier


  • #6719
    Exclamation Marc
    Registered Users Posts: 11,261 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Michael Fatialofa left hospital today back walking after being paralyzed from the clash he took back in January.

    Just in case anyone wanted to hear a good news story!

    https://twitter.com/tatianafats/status/1268986716569964545?s=19

    Clip for anyone interested. Great to see.


  • #6720
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,174 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Interesting to see the rumours floating about the proposed aligned international calendar. The biggest change would be that club rugby would run over the course of the summer which would be a massive change and I can see there being significant opposition against this in Ireland.

    From a selfish perspective, it would be great to have club rugby during the summer months and bring the kids along to games without worrying about being drowned. But I can see the provinces looking at the competition they'd face for crowds from the GAA and not being too enthusiastic. Munster in particular could find themselves coming off second best when we're at a time when Munster hurling is consistently so strong. I wouldn't think they'll be too thrilled with the prospect of filling Thomond on the same weekend as a number of Munster hurling championship fixtures.

    I can see Leinster and Connacht similarly having issue with it. There's a significant crossover between those who would go to Croke Park and those who would go to the RDS.

    But personally, I hope it gets the go ahead.


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  • #6721
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,962 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Buer wrote: »
    Interesting to see the rumours floating about the proposed aligned international calendar. The biggest change would be that club rugby would run over the course of the summer which would be a massive change and I can see there being significant opposition against this in Ireland.

    From a selfish perspective, it would be great to have club rugby during the summer months and bring the kids along to games without worrying about being drowned. But I can see the provinces looking at the competition they'd face for crowds from the GAA and not being too enthusiastic. Munster in particular could find themselves coming off second best when we're at a time when Munster hurling is consistently so strong. I wouldn't think they'll be too thrilled with the prospect of filling Thomond on the same weekend as a number of Munster hurling championship fixtures.

    I can see Leinster and Connacht similarly having issue with it. There's a significant crossover between those who would go to Croke Park and those who would go to the RDS.

    But personally, I hope it gets the go ahead.

    Agreed on the above in terms of the competition for ticket Sales vs. GAA or indeed Soccer to a certain extent

    Is this Summer approach only being considered for the Pro Game?

    Trying to move the Amateur game in Ireland would be utter madness..


This discussion has been closed.
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