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False rape accusation...who would you believe?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/sexual-consent-workshops-for-students-should-be-compulsory-after-troubling-report-minister-37194783.html
    More generally, Ms O'Connor said she wanted all colleges to demonstrate a uniform minimum standard of best practice to address issues such as sexual harassment and assault.

    She said it was both timely and appropriate to formulate a standard of institutional responsibility and to incorporate it formally into governance and regulatory requirements "for anybody delivering publicly funded third-level education".
    I wasn't sure which thread to post this to.

    In the US, there have been a lot of people complaining about what have been described as kangaroo courts that have been set up in colleges where defendants, often male, sometimes don't get due process.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    (14 minutes)

    He was a very lucky man that he was able to record the alleged victim subsequently admitting the claim was false, though this was many years later after he had spent 5 years in prison.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭Airyfairy12


    I wouldnt be looking at American standards of prosecution. They have an entirely different justice system that isnt in favor of either men or women, Broke Turner and Donald Trump are great examples of this and African american men have no chance as far as the american justice system is concerned, there's extremes on both sides.
    Consider Ireland and the fact that rapists are rarely prosecuted and when they are, they get very short sentences - Larry Murphy, an extreme example got 15 years for rape and attempted murder, he's also suspected of the murder of a number of missing women but he was let out in 10. He's currently living in Mullingar. Paul Moore, a serial rapist has had multiple convictions but is still walking the streets. Most rapists, if convicted get 1 - 5 years and usually let off with a suspended sentence or have their sentence reduced.

    Rape victims go through torment in the courts if they report a rape, theyre questioned and disbelieved even when there is evidence and everything goes against the rapists character. Even outside the courts rape victims are disbelieved, accused of being attention seekers or slut shamed. Lilly Allen is currently in the media for opening up about her experience with rape at the age of 14, the comments on facebook under the article are everything from slut shaming to accusing her of lying about it. I cant imagine why any woman would put herself through that ordeal over a false accusation unless she was seriously mentally ill.

    As for your friend, if you feel she is has been raped you need to tell someone as thats a very serious accusation and not to be taken lightly so I would speak to her and suggest talking it out with an adult, maybe the school guidance counselor or call women's aid. If its discovered she's lying she will have destroyed her own reputation and that's something she herself will carry around with her as people dont forget things like that but you dont know that she is lying and I wouldnt automatically assume she is - thats not to say he's guilty. Id look at it from both sides and inform an adult of the situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    Accusations, false or otherwise, are now getting a lot of attention in the US:
    The president said: “It’s a very scary time for young men in America when you can be guilty of something that you may not be guilty of. You can be somebody that was perfect your entire life and somebody could accuse you of something … and you’re automatically guilty.”

    Mr Trump also pretended to be a son asking his mother how to respond to an accusation.
    Steve King, a Republican member of the US House of Representatives from Iowa, said: “If Kavanaugh is not confirmed, every man is subject to seeing their life’s work and their reputation destroyed by an unsubstantiated allegation.”

    Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana declared: “This is no country for creepy old men. Or young men. Or middle-aged men. But this is no country at all.”

    And Mr Trump’s oldest son, Donald Trump Jr, told the Daily Mail this week: “I’ve got boys, and I’ve got girls. And when I see what’s going on right now, it’s scary,” adding that at the moment he fears more for his sons.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/watch-donald-trump-mock-fords-claims-against-kavanaugh-as-he-warns-of-scary-time-for-men-873193.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    I see there is a new movement and hashtag in the U.S. regarding men who are accused:
    #HimToo
    https://twitter.com/realhaleyadams/status/1044675511333531649?s=21


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    orubiru wrote: »
    I'm not sure how to properly consider this.

    Normally If a person cannot verbally give consent then there is no consent in my opinion. Of course there may be situations when a person cannot verbally give consent but does give consent in some other way. In general we could just focus on verbal consent for now.

    I do feel like if someone is drunk and/or on drugs and they give verbal consent then they have still consented. It seems like a bad situation if later on I could say "well I definitely said you could do those things but I was drunk at the time so I'll see you in court".

    If I arrived home blind drunk one night and decided to call up Babestation for an hour to chat to one of the women there then i seriously doubt I'd be able to contact them the next day and get my money back because "I was too drunk to consent".

    You could apply the same logic to shopping on Amazon while out of your mind on drugs. They would be unlikely to give you your refund because you couldn't consent due to drug usage. Right?

    Now, obviously rape is a far more serious issue than random drunken spending on the internet but at least some of the logic must apply.

    If it ever becomes possible that a man can ask a woman if she wants to have sex and she says "yes I would definitely like to have sex right now with you" and this man can be convicted of a sex crime because that woman was drunk when she said those words then I think we have taken our society to a bad place.

    I'm not saying that we are at that point. I'm not sure if we could even get to that point. How do you enforce those rules? If a young lady has had a few glasses of wine and then the guy from Uni that she really fancies shows up at the bar? She can't do anything because it's illegal?

    What if she tells this guy that she hasn't been drinking and they have sex and then a third party reports them to the police? Would we encourage third parties to report instances of intoxicated sex in the same way that we might encourage people to report drunk drivers etc?

    It would seem logical to me that if it becomes easier to abuse a legal system without proportionate consequences then the number of incidences of abuse of that system would increase.

    If you get in a car drunk and kill someone you can't mount a defence you were too drunk to drive therefore you are innocent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    I wouldnt be looking at American standards of prosecution. They have an entirely different justice system that isnt in favor of either men or women, Broke Turner and Donald Trump are great examples of this and African american men have no chance as far as the american justice system is concerned, there's extremes on both sides.
    Consider Ireland and the fact that rapists are rarely prosecuted and when they are, they get very short sentences - Larry Murphy, an extreme example got 15 years for rape and attempted murder, he's also suspected of the murder of a number of missing women but he was let out in 10. He's currently living in Mullingar. Paul Moore, a serial rapist has had multiple convictions but is still walking the streets. Most rapists, if convicted get 1 - 5 years and usually let off with a suspended sentence or have their sentence reduced.

    Rape victims go through torment in the courts if they report a rape, theyre questioned and disbelieved even when there is evidence and everything goes against the rapists character. Even outside the courts rape victims are disbelieved, accused of being attention seekers or slut shamed. Lilly Allen is currently in the media for opening up about her experience with rape at the age of 14, the comments on facebook under the article are everything from slut shaming to accusing her of lying about it. I cant imagine why any woman would put herself through that ordeal over a false accusation unless she was seriously mentally ill.

    As for your friend, if you feel she is has been raped you need to tell someone as thats a very serious accusation and not to be taken lightly so I would speak to her and suggest talking it out with an adult, maybe the school guidance counselor or call women's aid. If its discovered she's lying she will have destroyed her own reputation and that's something she herself will carry around with her as people dont forget things like that but you dont know that she is lying and I wouldnt automatically assume she is - thats not to say he's guilty. Id look at it from both sides and inform an adult of the situation.

    I see 99% support and sympathy online for people who say they've been raped. There is always the 1% who will send you death threats even if you are posting knitting tutorials.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Posted recently that I felt sorry for Cristiano Ronaldo - and that I'd prefer to go back to a time when due process ruled and social media hashtags could not convict.

    Friend of mine called me a rapist supporter and said "as a woman you should believe the survivors".

    There's no way through moronic "logic" like that is there ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Posted recently that I felt sorry for Cristiano Ronaldo - and that I'd prefer to go back to a time when due process ruled and social media hashtags could not convict.

    Friend of mine called me a rapist supporter and said "as a woman you should believe the survivors".

    There's no way through moronic "logic" like that is there ?

    Quite a nasty thing for your friend to say, are you still friends? I would have blocked that person for making that accusation


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    py2006 wrote: »
    Quite a nasty thing for your friend to say, are you still friends? I would have blocked that person for making that accusation

    I did block them, I know them in real life so I'll probably see them again.

    They do a lot of that crap tbh. They vote based on what Facebook says. Scary.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,725 ✭✭✭lalababa


    A local man was accused of rape by a girl (his girlfriend at the time I think), then blackmailed him so she wouldn't go to the guards ( or persue it with them ... can't remember exactly).
    The man/his advisor/gaurds set up a sting recording where she incriminated herself.
    Gaurds gave her a warning.
    No prosecution!
    Yer man had it hanging over him for months before, probably suicidal!
    The Ulster rugby players couldn't work for more than a year before trial, then got the sack when found innocent.Basically had to leave the country. Let down by the IRFU.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    lalababa wrote: »
    A local man was accused of rape by a girl (his girlfriend at the time I think), then blackmailed him so she wouldn't go to the guards ( or persue it with them ... can't remember exactly).
    The man/his advisor/gaurds set up a sting recording where she incriminated herself.
    Gaurds gave her a warning.
    No prosecution!
    Yer man had it hanging over him for months before, probably suicidal!
    The Ulster rugby players couldn't work for more than a year before trial, then got the sack when found innocent.Basically had to leave the country. Let down by the IRFU.

    That was a disgrace alright, but expected at the moment.

    The ballsy women of my mother's and grandmother's generations would be sickened by the women of today and their antics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    lalababa wrote: »
    The Ulster rugby players couldn't work for more than a year before trial, then got the sack when found innocent.Basically had to leave the country. Let down by the IRFU.

    They may have been found not guilty, but they had shown themselves to be a group of twats regardless. That alone was reason enough for their clubs to cut ties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    lalababa wrote: »
    A local man was accused of rape by a girl (his girlfriend at the time I think), then blackmailed him so she wouldn't go to the guards ( or persue it with them ... can't remember exactly).
    The man/his advisor/gaurds set up a sting recording where she incriminated herself.
    Gaurds gave her a warning.
    No prosecution!
    Yer man had it hanging over him for months before, probably suicidal!

    Did this make the media?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Pelvis wrote: »
    They may have been found not guilty, but they had shown themselves to be a group of twats regardless. That alone was reason enough for their clubs to cut ties.

    Show me in the penal code where being a twat is illegal ?

    Making a false rape claim certainly is. Blackmail definitely is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    Show me in the penal code where being a twat is illegal ?

    Show me where I said it was illegal?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Pelvis wrote: »
    Show me where I said it was illegal?

    Then why should someone lose their livelihood for perfectly legal behaviour ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    professore wrote: »
    If you get in a car drunk and kill someone you can't mount a defence you were too drunk to drive therefore you are innocent.

    Anyone can independently determine that you killed someone, at the moment only 1 person decides whether an encounter was rape/assault or not and they can do this after the fact.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Anyone can independently determine that you killed someone, at the moment only 1 person decides whether an encounter was rape/assault or not and they can do this after the fact.

    And only if they have a cervix.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,224 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    This is why false accusations are disgusting and the horrible women behind it should be hung drawn and quartered. Nasty nasty nasty women.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1049600016782888960


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Then why should someone lose their livelihood for perfectly legal behaviour ?

    Are you advocating that companies should be forced to hire people who are bad for business?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    Then why should someone lose their livelihood for perfectly legal behaviour ?

    It's not illegal to call my boss a cunt, but I'd probably lose my job none the less.

    They may not have been found guilty but their overall behaviour was not up to par, an employer is within their rights let them go in that case.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    ELM327 wrote: »
    This is why false accusations are disgusting and the horrible women behind it should be hung drawn and quartered. Nasty nasty nasty women.

    https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1049600016782888960

    This is what happens when we "believe all women".

    May they be reunited in Heaven - or wherever your belief system says.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,822 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    crazy lady accuses 9 year old boy of sexual assault, moral panic much?

    https://twitter.com/AndrewRamosTV/status/1050872606017146880

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    Mum jailed for making false rape accusation against 18-year-old man

    https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/mum-jailed-for-making-false-rape-accusation-against-18yearold-man-37415722.html
    Mr Osborne said: "It's turned my life upside down.

    "Yes I had sex with her, but I was not expecting to be accused of rape because it was consensual.

    "I was given a curfew on bail which had an impact on my work and social life.

    "One employer said he no longer required me because I couldn't work the hours.

    "Yes I did wrong by my partner, and I feel ashamed by my actions.

    "I knew I was innocent but it didn't stop me thinking about the worst case scenario and being sent to prison for something I didn't do.

    "If there was no CCTV in this case she may have been believed and I would be spending years in prison. It would have ruined my life."


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,030 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    iptba wrote: »

    The judge is right

    "Rape is a repulsive act. Victims of rape should be treated with every possible consideration by the justice system.

    "But equally, a false allegation can have dreadful consequences.

    "Every occasion a proven false allegation is made can have an insidious effect on public confidence in genuine complaints.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,454 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    This was interesting. It appears that according to surveys commissioned by the Economist, people in America in the last year have become more sceptical of claims of sexual harassment -

    Yet surveys suggest that this year-long storm of allegations, confessions and firings has actually made Americans more sceptical about sexual harassment. In the first week of November 2017, YouGov polled 1,500 Americans about their attitudes on the matter, on behalf of The Economist. In the final week of September 2018, it conducted a similar poll again. When it came to questions about the consequences of sexual assault and misconduct, there was a small but clear shift against victims.

    The share of American adults responding that men who sexually harassed women at work 20 years ago should keep their jobs has risen from 28% to 36%. The proportion who think that women who complain about sexual harassment cause more problems than they solve has grown from 29% to 31%. And 18% of Americans now think that false accusations of sexual assault are a bigger problem than attacks that go unreported or unpunished, compared with 13% in November last year. (According to the National Sexual Violence Resource Centre, an American non-profit organisation, 63% of sexual assaults are not reported to police, whereas between 2% and 10% of assault cases are falsely reported.)

    Surprisingly, these changes in opinion against victims have been slightly stronger among women than men. Rather than breaking along gendered lines, the #MeToo divide increasingly appears to be a partisan one. On each of these three questions, the gap between Trump and Clinton voters is at least six times greater than the one between genders.


    Source: After a year of #MeToo, American opinion has shifted against victims


    Bold emphasis my own, and I can’t say I’m the least bit surprised.


  • Registered Users Posts: 54,495 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The single biggest problem today is that word rape doesn't mean what it used to. The lines have been blurred so much....

    There are many men who have been found guilty of rape based off he said she said. Drink involved, was their consent etc etc. As if men and women need contracts before they engage in sexual acts.

    In other words every single man today is a potential rapist going by the "rules" in play..

    Rape to me is when a man forces himself upon a woman without her consent and with her resisting.

    Without real evidence of force then I think these convictions are going to have a real element of doubt.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,960 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Rape and False accusations should carry the same penalties.


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