False rape accusation...who would you believe?

01-01-2020 5:33pm

Ironicname wrote: »

Ok. So tell me exactly how drunk you need to be when your consent is out of your hands.

Ask the poster who said the woman was too drunk to consent.

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 5:34pm

bubblypop wrote: »

No, I posted a reply to your post. In it, you started the woman ' was too drunk to consent "

I am well aware of what I posted.

I am well aware of what you posted.

I am well aware that you have dodged two questions.

So, you can well see the difficulty...

Ironicname · 01-01-2020 5:37pm

bubblypop wrote:

Ask the poster who said the woman was too drunk to consent.

No I'm asking you. When do you think a woman cannot consent anymore? Should drunkenness, while still conscious, be grounds for calling sex rape? If so, what is the line?

01-01-2020 5:39pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

I am well aware of what I posted.

I am well aware of what you posted.

I am well aware that you have dodged two questions.

So, you can well see the difficulty...

No, I don't see any difficulty.
I would advise you that if you have any doubts about having sex with the drunk lady you are with, err on the side of caution & don't do it.
I'm going to guess that if you saw a guy attempting to take advantage of an extremely drunk girl, you would know something wasn't right?

Rape is not when a girl has regrets the next day. Too drunk to consent is obvious.
There was a case recently in the courts, where 2 men were convicted of raping a girl, at a party in leitrim. She was too drunk to consent.

01-01-2020 5:39pm

Ironicname wrote: »

No I'm asking you. When do you think a woman cannot consent anymore? Should drunkenness, while still conscious, be grounds for calling sex rape? If so, what is the line?

See above.

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 5:45pm

bubblypop wrote: »

No, I don't see any difficulty.
I would advise you that if you have any doubts about having sex with the drunk lady you are with, err on the side of caution & don't do it.
I'm going to guess that if you saw a guy attempting to take advantage of an extremely drunk girl, you would know something wasn't right?

Rape is not when a girl has regrets the next day. Too drunk to consent is obvious.
There was a case recently in the courts, where 2 men were convicted of raping a girl, at a party in leitrim. She was too drunk to consent.

There you go making it personal...this is not about me or you...this is not about witnessing a guy "taking advantage" of a drunk girl, although it is usual for the likes of yourself to use emotive senario's to shame a person out of an opinion.

I am well able to make sure I don't put myself in harm's way.

When you consider that the one night stand culture typically involves drunk people, often involving drugs, where does that leave us?

So, please, answer the question you have being dodging, the most important question in this situation, how is a man to know how drunk a woman is?

Ironicname · 01-01-2020 5:45pm

bubblypop wrote:

Rape is not when a girl has regrets the next day. Too drunk to consent is obvious.

If it's so obvious, then please explain.

When exactly does someone turn from being capable to consent and unable to consent?

If it is a mitigating factor between rape and not rape, you would hope that you should be able to define something so obvious.

01-01-2020 5:50pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

l, although it is usual for the likes of yourself to use emotive senario's to shame a person out of an opinion.

Who's getting personal now? & what exactly is the 'likes of me'?

Like a said already, it's obvious when a female is too drunk to consent, & I'm sure you would also know if they were.

As stated, there is no such thing as 'regret rape'
Read the recent court case of the rape in leitrim., it's very interesting

Ironicname · 01-01-2020 5:50pm

bubblypop wrote:

Like a said already, it's obvious when a female is too drunk to consent, & I'm sure you would also know if they were.

No it isn't.

01-01-2020 5:51pm

Ironicname wrote: »

If it's so obvious, then please explain.

When exactly does someone turn from being capable to consent and unable to consent?

If it is a mitigating factor between rape and not rape, you would hope that you should be able to define something so obvious.

Well, I would hope that you would know where that line is. If not, you need to educate yourself.
Just being drunk doesn't mean a girl is raped.

Ironicname · 01-01-2020 5:52pm

bubblypop wrote:

Well, I would hope that you would know where that line is. If not, you need to educate yourself. Just being drunk doesn't mean a girl is raped.

How can I possibly educate myself as to when YOU think a woman is too drunk to consent?

You won't answer.

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 5:56pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Who's getting personal now? & what exactly is the 'likes of me'?

Like a said already, it's obvious when a female is too drunk to consent, & I'm sure you would also know if they were.

As stated, there is no such thing as 'regret rape'
Read the recent court case of the rape in leitrim., it's very interesting

You just tried to shame me out of an opinion...that is what I mean when I say the likes of you.

Yet again, you have failed to answer the question you have been asked...

01-01-2020 5:59pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

You just tried to shame me out of an opinion...that is what I mean when I say the likes of you.

Yet again, you have failed to answer the question you have been asked...

I did not. I have answered the question, it is obvious when a girl is too drunk to consent.
You know as well, I'm sure you have seen girls that have been that drunk. Did you think that having sex with them would be right?
I have said many times here, being drunk does not mean a girl has been raped. Just being drunk, does not make it rape.

Ironicname · 01-01-2020 6:03pm

bubblypop wrote:

I did not. I have answered the question, it is obvious when a girl is too drunk to consent. You know as well, I'm sure you have seen girls that have been that drunk. Did you think that having sex with them would be right? I have said many times here, being drunk does not mean a girl has been raped. Just being drunk, does not make it rape.

So when does a girl become too drunk to consent?

If it is so obvious, tell us.

01-01-2020 6:06pm

Ironicname wrote: »

So when does a girl become too drunk to consent?

If it is so obvious, tell us.

I'm not sure what you want me to say?
It is obvious when you encounter that drunk girl.
I'm sure you have seen drunk people who are not capable of looking after themselves? Do you think they would be too drunk to consent?

One eyed Jack · 01-01-2020 6:07pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

How is a man supposed to know if she is drunk...what is drunk, what if she has only had two drinks but three lines of coke...you can see the problem right?

We are not talking about a woman who is passed out here!

It’s not that a man is supposed to know or not whether a woman is drunk, it’s that a man is expected to take reasonable measures to ensure another person has the capacity to consent. If it is shown that he is reckless in doing so or he completely failed to do so, then he may well find himself in a spot of bother with the law.

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 6:12pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I did not. I have answered the question, it is obvious when a girl is too drunk to consent.
You know as well, I'm sure you have seen girls that have been that drunk. Did you think that having sex with them would be right?
I have said many times here, being drunk does not mean a girl has been raped. Just being drunk, does not make it rape.

Look...I understand your point, but it is the ambiguity that is the issue.

If you are wondering why I am in any way concerned it is because the Movement/Entities that brought us the completely misleading Gender Pay Gap which has resulted in men being discriminated against across this country, are now bring us The Epidemic of Violence against women, both domestic abuse and sexual violence...this has been sweeping across The West to varying degrees over the last few years....this movement completely ignores male victims of female violence/abuse for a very good reason.

If we cannot agree on what constitutes a drunk woman, you can understand how lethal the situation can become for a man.

This situation is completely separate to a rape/sexual assault that involves trauma for a woman....

Ironicname · 01-01-2020 6:15pm

bubblypop wrote:

I'm not sure what you want me to say? It is obvious when you encounter that drunk girl. I'm sure you have seen drunk people who are not capable of looking after themselves? Do you think they would be too drunk to consent?

One eyed Jack wrote:

Itâ€™s not that a man is supposed to know or not whether a woman is drunk, itâ€™s that a man is expected to take reasonable measures to ensure another person has the capacity to consent. If it is shown that he is reckless in doing so or he completely failed to do so, then he may well find himself in a spot of bother with the law.

When something is as subjective as "too drunk" then I can't see how it is possible to take a reasonable measure to ensure the other person has the capacity to consent?

What does that even mean in regards to legality?

01-01-2020 6:39pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

Look...I understand your point, but it is the ambiguity that is the issue.

If you are wondering why I am in any way concerned it is because the Movement/Entities that brought us the completely misleading Gender Pay Gap which has resulted in men being discriminated against across this country, are now bring us The Epidemic of Violence against women, both domestic abuse and sexual violence...this has been sweeping across The West to varying degrees over the last few years....this movement completely ignores male victims of female violence/abuse for a very good reason.

If we cannot agree on what constitutes a drunk woman, you can understand how lethal the situation can become for a man.

This situation is completely separate to a rape/sexual assault that involves trauma for a woman....

This isn't a male vs female issue really, you seem to want there to be some ambiguity to this.
There's really not, if you are asking where the line is between drunk & too drunk, then it's different for everyone, so hard to define. But, I think we can all agree, we know when the line has been crossed. It is obvious.
It's like you imagine a drunk girl can just claim rape because she was drunk. But again, that is not the case.

As regards the domestic violence issues you refer to, there are many organizations to assist women victims of domestic abuse. There are also organisations for male victims of domestic violence.
I don't think there's any particular anti -male bias when it comes to domestic violence?
Off topic, I guess anyway

One eyed Jack · 01-01-2020 6:43pm

Ironicname wrote: »

When something is as subjective as "too drunk" then I can't see how it is possible to take a reasonable measure to ensure the other person has the capacity to consent?

What does that even mean in regards to legality?

Ahh now, you really can’t see how it’s possible for a person to determine whether or not another person has the capacity to consent to engage in whatever kind of sexual activity that person has in mind? Of course it’s possible to take what are generally considered to be reasonable measures to ensure a person has the capacity to to consent.

Whether or not they are drunk is only one very specific set of circumstances, and unfortunately it’s the one that these ‘consent classes’ tend to focus far too much on, but that’s a whole other story.

What it means in regards to legality is basically that if a person makes a complaint against another person, the person who the complaint is being made against should be able to provide investigating officers with an account of the steps they took to determine whether the other person had the capacity to consent. If it is determined that they were reckless in obtaining consent (in those particular circumstances in whatever the circumstances are of any individual case), then they may find themselves in a spot of bother with the law.

It doesn’t mean they are automatically guilty of committing an offence, it doesn’t mean they will necessary be convicted of committing an offence, it just means that they might find themselves in a spot of bother with the law if a complaint is made against them. There are some examples given in legislation already, but the law is not limited specifically to those examples and circumstances listed either -

Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017, S. 48

Essentially, nobody needs to be so fearful that they think they have to avoid other people altogether, that’s just silly, and it’s the sort of paranoid nonsense that is the complete opposite of rational discussion.

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 6:50pm

bubblypop wrote: »

This isn't a male vs female issue really, you seem to want there to be some ambiguity to this.
There's really not, if you are asking where the line is between drunk & too drunk, then it's different for everyone, so hard to define. But, I think we can all agree, we know when the line has been crossed. It is obvious.
It's like you imagine a drunk girl can just claim rape because she was drunk. But again, that is not the case.

As regards the domestic violence issues you refer to, there are many organizations to assist women victims of domestic abuse. There are also organisations for male victims of domestic violence.
I don't think there's any particular anti -male bias when it comes to domestic violence?
Off topic, I guess anyway

I wish I could share your sentiments, I really do....

A drunk girl can now claim she was too drunk to consent, now, how she would secure a conviction is another thing...but the accusation is what will do the damage....and in the absence of any such crime on the statute books (I am aware that it is covered under Perversion of Justice, but that is a very broad term, a man isn't convicted of assault when he sexually assaults a woman) there is no deterrent...

This is very much a male v female thing unfortunately, such are the times we live in...and it is a very deliberate male v female thing...the Domestic Violence Industry has been very much male v female since it's inception a few decades ago.

If I was a young woman I'd be starting to wonder how she is supposed to meet a bloke, the workplace is now not appropriate, the pub/nightclub scene will begin to reflect new realities.

If I was a young man or rearing a young man, I'd be petrified for him...I am very familiar with how cold the one night stand culture is, someone more often than not gets rejected....

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 6:54pm

Essentially, nobody needs to be so fearful that they think they have to avoid other people altogether, that’s just silly, and it’s the sort of paranoid nonsense that is the complete opposite of rational discussion.[/QUOTE]

If someone said to me, a few short years ago, that Irish men would be discriminated in the workplace I would have thought that it was paranoid nonsense....but I would have been wrong, things change.

01-01-2020 6:58pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

I wish I could share your sentiments, I really do....

A drunk girl can now claim she was too drunk to consent, now, how she would secure a conviction is another thing...but the accusation is what will do the damage....

This can happen when a woman is sober.

One eyed Jack · 01-01-2020 7:22pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

If someone said to me, a few short years ago, that Irish men would be discriminated in the workplace I would have thought that it was paranoid nonsense....but I would have been wrong, things change.

You wouldn’t have been wrong, and even now I would suggest anyone making such a claim is talking nonsense. Irish men aren’t being discriminated against in the workplace, and for anyone who perceives themselves to have been discriminated against, there are remedies in law to address those specific circumstances. Sometimes a person making a complaint has a legitimate claim to argue they have been discriminated against, and sometimes they just don’t. Claiming that Irish men as a whole are being discriminated against in the workplace is just so way out there it’s not even a thought worth entertaining.

To go back to your earlier claim though that a woman can now make a claim that she was too drunk to consent, well, women could always do that anyway, but the reality is that not many of them do, and even less women are willing to make a complaint to the authorities, let alone appear as witnesses for the prosecution in any given case. This is due to a number of factors, any one or a combination of which could influence their decision not to make such claims in circumstances where they feel that they had no capacity to consent. All too often women will prefer to keep quiet about it for fear of the effects of telling anyone that they feel they have been the victim of any wrongdoing. Often it is claimed that this is out of fear of not being believed, but I would contend that it is out of fear of the consequences of making a complaint - they aren’t ever positive, and that’s why many cases simply go unreported.

You also mentioned that if you were rearing a young man you’d be petrified for him, and I can understand why you’d be petrified for him given your line of reasoning on this issue. I’m raising a young man and I’m not the least bit afraid for him, precisely because I know that the possibility of an allegation of rape or sexual assault ever being made against him is incredibly unlikely. It isn’t just because I have raised him to understand that he has a responsibility towards other people to respect them and to respect himself, but it’s because like myself, he simply has no interest in buying into any of that playing the victim crap.

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 7:39pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You wouldn’t have been wrong, and even now I would suggest anyone making such a claim is talking nonsense. Irish men aren’t being discriminated against in the workplace, and for anyone who perceives themselves to have been discriminated against, there are remedies in law to address those specific circumstances. Sometimes a person making a complaint has a legitimate claim to argue they have been discriminated against, and sometimes they just don’t. Claiming that Irish men as a whole are being discriminated against in the workplace is just so way out there it’s not even a thought worth entertaining.

To go back to your earlier claim though that a woman can now make a claim that she was too drunk to consent, well, women could always do that anyway, but the reality is that not many of them do, and even less women are willing to make a complaint to the authorities, let alone appear as witnesses for the prosecution in any given case. This is due to a number of factors, any one or a combination of which could influence their decision not to make such claims in circumstances where they feel that they had no capacity to consent. All too often women will prefer to keep quiet about it for fear of the effects of telling anyone that they feel they have been the victim of any wrongdoing. Often it is claimed that this is out of fear of not being believed, but I would contend that it is out of fear of the consequences of making a complaint - they aren’t ever positive, and that’s why many cases simply go unreported.

You also mentioned that if you were rearing a young man you’d be petrified for him, and I can understand why you’d be petrified for him given your line of reasoning on this issue. I’m raising a young man and I’m not the least bit afraid for him, precisely because I know that the possibility of an allegation of rape or sexual assault ever being made against him is incredibly unlikely. It isn’t just because I have raised him to understand that he has a responsibility towards other people to respect them and to respect himself, but it’s because like myself, he simply has no interest in buying into any of that playing the victim crap.

I could name 6 companies, household names that are currently not promoting men and are explicitly informing men as such...I cannot prove it for obvious reasons, but I suspect there are many posters who can relate...this is discrimination pure and simple.

Think of this another way, experts say, and I'd agree, that rape / sexual assault is not about sex it is about power and abuse of that power and society is well capable of producing men who will abuse that power.

Making a false rape accusation is also about power, albeit a different kind...and I'd agree, at this moment in time the chances are very slim...but that is at this moment in time...our society is well capable of producing women who will abuse that power...there is no deterrent to making this accusation, because the difference between an unfounded accusation and a false accusation is very virtually indistinuishable...and there are different motives to make an accusation.

It is very much like Domestic Abuse, how to you discern which partner is more abusive than the other...well, we know how that industry operates.

the_pen_turner · 01-01-2020 7:39pm

bubblypop wrote: »

This isn't a male vs female issue really, you seem to want there to be some ambiguity to this.
There's really not, if you are asking where the line is between drunk & too drunk, then it's different for everyone, so hard to define. But, I think we can all agree, we know when the line has been crossed. It is obvious.
It's like you imagine a drunk girl can just claim rape because she was drunk. But again, that is not the case.

As regards the domestic violence issues you refer to, there are many organizations to assist women victims of domestic abuse. There are also organisations for male victims of domestic violence.
I don't think there's any particular anti -male bias when it comes to domestic violence?
Off topic, I guess anyway

not sure about that.
when was the last time you heard the actual statistics on the estimated levels of domestic violance between men and women. i have nover heard it mentioned out straight. you never hear that men are twice as likely to be victims than women.
all you hear is that women report ot twice as much. the truth is always glossed over and ignored

look at the money that is supporting womans aid versus mens aid charities. womens aid gets multiples of what the mens get.

dont fool yourself

Silentcorner · 01-01-2020 7:45pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

not sure about that.
when was the last time you heard the actual statistics on the estimated levels of domestic violance between men and women. i have nover heard it mentioned out straight. you never hear that men are twice as likely to be victims than women.
all you hear is that women report ot twice as much. the truth is always glossed over and ignored

look at the money that is supporting womans aid versus mens aid charities. womens aid gets multiples of what the mens get.

dont fool yourself

Women's aid gets approx €20 million a year.
Men's aid get less than €800k.

Women are as likely to be abusive as they are to be abused.

the_pen_turner · 01-01-2020 7:49pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

Women's aid gets approx €20 million a year.
Men's aid get less than €800k.

Women are as likely to be abusive as they are to be abused.

its hard to get an acurate break down . the research i found showed men as twice as likely to be victims than women. that included men on men domestic violence as well i presume as it does women on women.

01-01-2020 7:52pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

its hard to get an acurate break down . the research i found showed men as twice as likely to be victims than women. that included men on men domestic violence as well i presume as it does women on women.

Where did you find this research? Is it Irish based or international?
I'd be interested in this

the_pen_turner · 01-01-2020 8:04pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Where did you find this research? Is it Irish based or international?
I'd be interested in this

i will see if i can find it. irish base

False rape accusation...who would you believe?

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