Post RWC

Dubinusa · 14-10-2019 3:01pm #1

So J.S is leaving and Farrell assumes the reins. What does this mean for us going forward? Which players get jettisoned? Does ou style of play change?
This upcoming 6nations is the 1st step to 2023. How does our squad look in February?
I think we will see a few new lads in the wider squad.
Rhys Marshall for one. Perhaps a couple of lads returned from the wilderness? McCloskey? Marty Moore?
If it was my squad and I was planning a 4 year cycle, I would purge the squad of guys who will be too old in 2023!
Earl's. POM, Cronin and obviously Toner.
Healy's is 32 and he's still our best lh, so I would hold onto him. But. EOS and James Cronin could soon be in the frame!
Hooker is a problem. Scannell is in polar position and I thought he would have passed Rory by this stage. Hopefully, McBurney and Kelleher can push on.
Our locks look good. A lot of depth, with some young lads coming up too! Wycherly, Jack Dunne and Treadwell.
The back row is also looking strong, JOD, Boyle and Deegan could become regulars?
Scrum half is also fairly strong. Marmion, Cooney and Blade are right there as is JGP.
OH there's Carty, Carberry and RB. A decent group that could really kick on.
The backs also look good, Larmour; Lyttle, Adam Byrne, with other lads coming up too.
I think Farrell has a good hand to start with!
Personally, I would have selected Leocaster as the coaches but Farrell is the new boss.

Sabre0001 · 14-10-2019 3:07pm

Wait for a little dust to settle on the new trophy in our cabinet in a few weeks at least! :P

partyguinness · 14-10-2019 3:10pm

I think Earls has another couple of years in him at least.

Niallof9 · 14-10-2019 3:23pm

If its a bad World cup, i.e a 15 point plus loss on top of Japan game, Farrell needs to hit the ground running. He should look at bolters like Kelleher, Penny and one or two others. It would buy him time. We need to stop with the idea that every international is the be end and end all when we mess it up coming to World Cups. Like four year cycles become a moot point when you can't ever get past the quarters.

We need to change tack in how we approach games as well. Hopefully Mike Catt brings something new to the table, like Lancaster did with Leinster. We look very stale

razorblunt · 14-10-2019 3:28pm

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.
Kearney's on a further 1 year contract but I wouldn't let him darken the door of training sessions.

I'd love to see the likes of Deegan - Penney - Dorris get a go too.

Lots of scrum half options around too, I don't think McGrath is ahead of the likes of Cooney, Marmion, Blade and presumably Gibson-Park will be IQ soon too?

Overall though, I just hope there's more to this one many out static take and jog then flop to the floor.

Sanjuro · 14-10-2019 3:33pm

Gibson-Park is already IQ.

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 3:35pm

The most important thing is a change of tactics. We need to play more attacking rugby. We have the players to do it. Joeball must go.

Henry Ford III · 14-10-2019 3:57pm

Dorris needs a name change. Deegan should be called Max Power.

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 4:01pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Dorris needs a name change. Deegan should be called Max Power.

Dhún an doras.

Dubinusa · 14-10-2019 9:31pm

I think that Henshaw with his constant injury profile, won't make the next rwc! He's certainly had his share of misfortune. But, I can't see him being the best center available. The likes of Stewart Moore and James Hume look really promising, as does Hawkshaw and Turner.
The prospects certainly do look promising.

jacothelad · 14-10-2019 9:51pm

Full back.........Don't forget Addison.

AbusesToilets · 14-10-2019 10:53pm

So, in short hand, who would you add to the Leinster team for the internationals?

randomname2005 · 14-10-2019 10:58pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.
Kearney's on a further 1 year contract but I wouldn't let him darken the door of training sessions.

I'd love to see the likes of Deegan - Penney - Dorris get a go too.

Lots of scrum half options around too, I don't think McGrath is ahead of the likes of Cooney, Marmion, Blade and presumably Gibson-Park will be IQ soon too?

Overall though, I just hope there's more to this one many out static take and jog then flop to the floor.

While I agree with parts of this, we need Rob Kearney. He is the best full back we have ever had, and we need him to mentor the next generation, guide them with positioning, communication etc. Do we play him all the time, no but don't just discard him.

cson · 15-10-2019 12:02am

Niallof9 wrote: »

If its a bad World cup, i.e a 15 point plus loss on top of Japan game, Farrell needs to hit the ground running. He should look at bolters like Kelleher, Penny and one or two others. It would buy him time. We need to stop with the idea that every international is the be end and end all when we mess it up coming to World Cups. Like four year cycles become a moot point when you can't ever get past the quarters.

We need to change tack in how we approach games as well. Hopefully Mike Catt brings something new to the table, like Lancaster did with Leinster. We look very stale

Isn't the IRFU budget based on finishing minimum 3rd in the Six Nations each year? In which case I don't think Farrell has time to start major experiments with new players.

razorblunt wrote: »

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.

Much as it saddens me to say as a Connacht supporter, O'Halloran isn't at the level that test rugby demands (at the level we aspire to). He's also 29 in February.

Dubinusa · 15-10-2019 2:07am

Still think Carberry is our best option at 15. But Larmour is coming along nicely. Addison has great potential and after that there's a couple of young lads who may step up. Jake Flannery? Sylvester from Leinster and possibly switching someone like Ringrose to fb.

Niallof9 · 15-10-2019 8:41am

cson wrote: »

Isn't the IRFU budget based on finishing minimum 3rd in the Six Nations each year? In which case I don't think Farrell has time to start major experiments with new players.

Much as it saddens me to say as a Connacht supporter, O'Halloran isn't at the level that test rugby demands (at the level we aspire to). He's also 29 in February.

Yes i'm aware of that, that's my point in a way, we'll just keep up this cycle of being **** at world cups (so far) if we don't stop with some of this nonsense. The public would give the IRFU and Farrell credit if he finished with a wooden spoon but had blooded guys like Larmour, Deegan, Penny, Tyler, Gibson Park, Thornberry or whoever. I certainly would.

If we do get beaten soundly in quarters, and on top of Japan i think Farrell is under serious pressure. He has been given much more responsibility since the announcement. He's not just a defence coach anymore.

My choice would have been don't announce the next coach and wait till the dust settle for the new appointment.

I think a poor World Cup will damage Irish rugby regardless and finishing third is the least of our concerns. A poor world cup is a defeat to Japan, poor v Russia and 13 plus defeat to the All Blacks (whom we clearly didn't want to face)

Sanjuro · 15-10-2019 9:00am

Dubinusa wrote: »

Still think Carberry is our best option at 15. But Larmour is coming along nicely. Addison has great potential and after that there's a couple of young lads who may step up. Jake Flannery? Sylvester from Leinster and possibly switching someone like Ringrose to fb.

Why would you switch the arguably best 13 in Ireland to full back?

Henry Ford III · 15-10-2019 9:04am

randomname2005 wrote: »

While I agree with parts of this, we need Rob Kearney. He is the best full back we have ever had, and we need him to mentor the next generation, guide them with positioning, communication etc. Do we play him all the time, no but don't just discard him.

He's old and thinks tackling is optional.

Time to move on.

Dravokivich · 15-10-2019 8:08pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

He's old and thinks tackling is optional.

Time to move on.

Last time there was a lot of criticism this happened:

https://punditarena.com/rugby/thepateam/video-rob-kearney-makes-three-tackles-in-nine-seconds/

And more recently

https://mobile.twitter.com/murray_kinsella/status/1121021813843288066

The Lost Sheep · 15-10-2019 8:40pm

randomname2005 wrote: »

While I agree with parts of this, we need Rob Kearney. He is the best full back we have ever had, and we need him to mentor the next generation, guide them with positioning, communication etc. Do we play him all the time, no but don't just discard him.

we dont if we are to look properly at 2023 and long term we dont need Kearney. He will be 34 at end of this season. We shouldn't be using him beyond this season. The next generation will benefit far more from playing with the guys that will be there in 3/4 years not Kearney who has a year or so left. We need to act differently to change behaviour especially if we do lose to New Zealand and doing the same as we've done before sint the right way to go about things

Neil3030 · 15-10-2019 9:03pm

We don't need to start changing the team (outside of retirement or injury) with the RWC in mind until the pools are drawn in two years time. Until then we may see Farrell begin to impose whatever tactical changes he may want on the team, but he'll be picking the strongest players to do this at a given moment, not the players he think will be peaking at the RWC.

The Lost Sheep · 15-10-2019 9:33pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

We don't need to start changing the team (outside of retirement or injury) with the RWC in mind until the pools are drawn in two years time. Until then we may see Farrell begin to impose whatever tactical changes he may want on the team, but he'll be picking the strongest players to do this at a given moment, not the players he think will be peaking at the RWC.

maybe we do need to. Not like we've done it before. Far better chance to really look at others if you start further away from the tournament with dar greater ability to look at players, playing styles etc.

Shefwedfan · 15-10-2019 9:47pm

razorblunt wrote: »

Sort the FB position out, Conway - Larmour - TOH. I hope they all get a proper look in.
Kearney's on a further 1 year contract but I wouldn't let him darken the door of training sessions.

I'd love to see the likes of Deegan - Penney - Dorris get a go too.

Lots of scrum half options around too, I don't think McGrath is ahead of the likes of Cooney, Marmion, Blade and presumably Gibson-Park will be IQ soon too?

Overall though, I just hope there's more to this one many out static take and jog then flop to the floor.

Well FB is fairly easy. Conway is playing on the wing so isn't a FB and TOH is not even in the picture.

Larmour and Addison moving forward. Potentially Haley and Lowry as options.

Scrum Half is bigger issue, Murray for the moment but Cooney, McGrath, Marmion not really up to task for Blade and other options need to be looked at.

ClanofLams · 15-10-2019 10:12pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

maybe we do need to. Not like we've done it before. Far better chance to really look at others if you start further away from the tournament with dar greater ability to look at players, playing styles etc.

I don’t really think so, there isn’t many in Ireland who haven’t gotten a chance over the last four years. Either way only a coach with serious credit in the bank would have the leeway to do that. Farrell can’t sacrifice results with some four year plan in mind because there’s a reasonable chance he wouldn’t be there in ‘23 if he did that.

Squidgy Black · 15-10-2019 10:16pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

maybe we do need to. Not like we've done it before. Far better chance to really look at others if you start further away from the tournament with dar greater ability to look at players, playing styles etc.

Summer tours and Autumn internationals are generally the platform for coaches to do that, it's rare you'll see changes for the 6 Nations unless through injury or a player really stepping up at provincial level.

I'm willing to put money on posters moaning come 6 Nations time that Farrell has stuck with a lot of the current team and have expected an overhaul of the squad with young players.

touts · 15-10-2019 10:21pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Still think Carberry is our best option at 15. But Larmour is coming along nicely. Addison has great potential and after that there's a couple of young lads who may step up. Jake Flannery? Sylvester from Leinster and possibly switching someone like Ringrose to fb.

I actually suspect Sexton may well retire after this world cup. He has struggled with injuries and just doesn't seem to enjoy playing anymore which makes me think he is playing in pain. Plus he has a history with concussion that isn't exactly ideal. One more hard bang on his head and he could be forced into retirement. He may be sensible enough not to wait until that happens. So far from being an option at FB. Carberry could we'll be our first choice Number 10 by the six nation's in February.

The Lost Sheep · 15-10-2019 10:48pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

I don’t really think so, there isn’t many in Ireland who haven’t gotten a chance over the last four years. Either way only a coach with serious credit in the bank would have the leeway to do that. Farrell can’t sacrifice results with some four year plan in mind because there’s a reasonable chance he wouldn’t be there in ‘23 if he did that.

I dont see it happening but it would be great if we did try something different in a world cup assuming we dont win at the weekend. How much more would it be worth if we did go further in a world cup and didn't do as well in 1/2 6 nations??

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Summer tours and Autumn internationals are generally the platform for coaches to do that, it's rare you'll see changes for the 6 Nations unless through injury or a player really stepping up at provincial level.

I'm willing to put money on posters moaning come 6 Nations time that Farrell has stuck with a lot of the current team and have expected an overhaul of the squad with young players.

so just continue the exact same way when it's likely we'll have done the same as we've done in every world cup before hand.

touts wrote: »

I actually suspect Sexton may well retire after this world cup. He has struggled with injuries and just doesn't seem to enjoy playing anymore which makes me think he is playing in pain. Plus he has a history with concussion that isn't exactly ideal. One more hard bang on his head and he could be forced into retirement. He may be sensible enough not to wait until that happens. So far from being an option at FB. Carberry could we'll be our first choice Number 10 by the six nation's in February.

as in straight after? No chance. And ridiculous to try claim he isnt enjoying playing. And the history with concussion is bit much to try say he has to retire.

ClanofLams · 15-10-2019 11:25pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont see it happening but it would be great if we did try something different in a world cup assuming we dont win at the weekend. How much more would it be worth if we did go further in a world cup and didn't do as well in 1/2 6 nations??

Yeah I never see it happening to be honest given the pressure for results. It sounds good in theory but you could easily end up with a situation like this World Cup where Ireland are going to be facing one of the top teams regardless and having sacrificed a potential six nations.

Has any country ever done it? For all this talk of four year cycles I don’t recall first choice players being jettisoned because they wouldn’t make a tournament in four years time. Not saying it hasn’t happened, just wondering.

We’re also working off a fairly small sample size of world cups where Ireland have failed to get past last 8. Ireland just weren’t good enough until at least 2007 to reach that stage, it was close in ‘91 but that would have been a freak result. 2007 got tournament approach in terms of training all wrong obviously, 2015 freakish injuries and suspension, be hard to overcome no matter what your four year plan was.

Other countries are getting to semis and finals without doing anything radically different to Ireland it seems. There may not be anything really wrong with the current approach.

Podge_irl · 16-10-2019 7:50am

4 years is way too long a timeframe to bother trying to actively plan for. It was, to a degree, tried with Jackson during this world cup cycle for example and look what happened. Obviously a slightly unique situation but with injuries, players moving abroad etc actively focusing on some kind of world cup cycle four years out is madness.

Shefwedfan · 16-10-2019 7:58am

I was thinking about this and was going to start thread but you beat me to it....

I see we have two options.
Option 1: Focus on the 6 nations. Play your best team each year to win the 6 nations. No 4 year plans or any of that s**t. Just win as many 6 nations as possible. If England and France are focused on WC then pick up the 6 nations trophies in the mean time. We have shown we can win them regular with Joe(3 in 6) and the Irish team did admit after the England game this year they gave up on 6 nations to focus on WC....

But we could just say feck it, our money maker is the 6 nations, its not like we have won many of them. Lets win as many as possible and just see how we end up at the WC.....

Option 2: Full 4 year plan. Pick the main squad now that will be at next WC, 40 odd players. Anyone old gets cut, thanks but we have to move on. Kearney, Sexton, Healy etc if they are not going to be around then off they go. Invest in young players. So if we think Harry Byrne will be in squad bring him in now. I know Joe does bring these players in and they get to practise but bring them in all the time. They are squad. You are going to lose 6 nations. Write them off and then hope that everything comes together in 4 years

My option would be 1. I think we can't get sucked into this 4 year cycle stuff. We haven't enough trophies to do it. Let just win as much as possible. France are looking at next WC already etc.

Niallof9 · 16-10-2019 8:31am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Summer tours and Autumn internationals are generally the platform for coaches to do that, it's rare you'll see changes for the 6 Nations unless through injury or a player really stepping up at provincial level.

I'm willing to put money on posters moaning come 6 Nations time that Farrell has stuck with a lot of the current team and have expected an overhaul of the squad with young players.

And whats wrong with that. Defeat to Japan and now because of that abject failure, perhaps New Zealand hardly quantifies as a success. So Farrell has to hit the ground running, unless we achieve our minimum target of a semi.

Jesus lads some scary talk on here. Seems like you guys have forgotten the emergence of people like Furlong (no starts in 2015 wc) and Ryan (only distant talk), Stockdale, Larmour, Ringrose etc. Loads of players could be viable options by 2023 - Penny, Deegan, wycherley by 2, Kelleher, Baird, Doris, Milne, French, Healy, Casey, COB, Frawley and god knows who else and thats not even taking into consideration Lowe, Gibson Park, Marshall, Butler etc and then you have people Joe didn't fancy like McCloskey and one or two others.

Can we stop with all the denial. There will be big changes over the coming years. And Farrell will be lauded if he did take a few chances.

We need to forget four year cycles and we need to rejig the central contracts.

But we 100 per cent need to freshen things in the coming 18 months. I can't believe there is people even suggesting sticking with the status quo. Its mind boggling.

As much as i'm willing Ireland to win on Saturday in our heart of hearts we all know whats going to happen. As QUinlan said losing to Japan (as good as they turned out) will be a stain on this World Cup if we go out at quarters.

If we do manage a semi, Andy Farrell can come into the top job with plenty of good will and time.

The basis of a good team is there. Conway, Dillane, Larmour, Joey (maybe fullback) all should get their head in the coming year regardless. Since the days of Eddie we've had far too many undroppables.

Post RWC

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