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12-05-2020, 21:48   #106
Blaaz_
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Originally Posted by Rows Grower View Post
I highlighted what I strongly disagreed with but that's not to say that I agree with the rest of your post.

If your honest opinion is that the GFA was a failure I doubt very much you are anything more than a bar stool republican who misses the bar stool because of the lock down and still feels the need to impress strangers with your self proclaimed republican credentials.

If you'd like to engage in reasonable discussion that is what this forum was created for and it was you yourself that started this thread, presumably because you wanted a discussion although it does appear you did actually want a pissing competition and were confident of your abilities.

This doesn't give you ownership of the thread though, just because you started it doesn't mean everything you write is above reproach, you should expect criticism if you are expressing viewpoints others do not agree with.

I'd actually like to hear the reasoning behind your views, not because I consider you a militant republican like you are trying to portray (because I don't think you are) but I'd like to find out your opinion and where you think the likes of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, Tom Murphy, Gerry Kelly, John Hume and all the others too numerous to mention went wrong when they helped create the Good Friday Agreement.

Over to yourself, mo chara.
In terms of achieveing a utd ireland it has been a failure.....to my mind the criteria for a border poll has been met


Its endpoint is entirely predicated on the british being honest.....

But that being said,unless the ira could bring something new/game-changing to the fight,they were never going to break the deadlock (and vice versa with the english)
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12-05-2020, 22:45   #107
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Originally Posted by Rows Grower View Post
I highlighted what I strongly disagreed with but that's not to say that I agree with the rest of your post.

If your honest opinion is that the GFA was a failure I doubt very much you are anything more than a bar stool republican who misses the bar stool because of the lock down and still feels the need to impress strangers with your self proclaimed republican credentials.

If you'd like to engage in reasonable discussion that is what this forum was created for and it was you yourself that started this thread, presumably because you wanted a discussion although it does appear you did actually want a pissing competition and were confident of your abilities.

This doesn't give you ownership of the thread though, just because you started it doesn't mean everything you write is above reproach, you should expect criticism if you are expressing viewpoints others do not agree with.

I'd actually like to hear the reasoning behind your views, not because I consider you a militant republican like you are trying to portray (because I don't think you are) but I'd like to find out your opinion and where you think the likes of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness, Tom Murphy, Gerry Kelly, John Hume and all the others too numerous to mention went wrong when they helped create the Good Friday Agreement.

Over to yourself, mo chara.
1 you're not "mo chara".
2. I'm not a militant anything, was accused of it by AGS etc
(No truth in it must have been a complete mistaken identity)
3. I was answering a question
4. Don't drink
5. No bar stool republicans in the 6 counties ( all down here )
6.ref John Hume a great man
7.ref Slab and co on the border smugglers nothing else( since the GFA
8.if you read my post exactly , you'd see my reasoning ref MY point on why I think the GFA failed,but for you I'll go over it again as you seen not tonne able to comprehend .




Reasons why the whole **** show isn't gone away is that the very people it needed /needs to address are and have been left behind..
Ie- the dissafected youth from the Sandy row, Bogside,Nelson drive, Brandywell etc etc
They always have been and will continue to be fodder for the UDA/ new so called Ra etc hope that answers your question?
I've a vested interest in the peace process ( hadn't for a long time - considered Adam's and McGuiness as traitors)
I matured,copped on, relaised I was wrong,not mistaken but wrong,and voted SF for the first time ( D O Laoighre)
As a former SF member in the mid 70s in Cork city that's how I ended up in Derry, bloody Sunday remembrance march,
I saw all sides of the coin,my arrest for suspected membership in Dundalk was for what you call "dissident" activity, that's truthful, and I'm not I'm a pissing competition, I'm too old and have been around more blocks than you've seen, over 60 , again I'm not being confrontational , bit you're backing the wrong horse accusing me in any way shape or form of being a bar stool republican, I'm not, reason I initially started this thread was no one was mentioning Bobby Sands ,and was coming up to the 5/5 and still no mention here on boards,I was both surprised and let down
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12-05-2020, 22:49   #108
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Its said patsy o hara body had cigarette burns on it aswell

The world will never know half of what went on in that jail.
Was at Kevin Lynch's house,his face was definitely marked,RUC denied strongly ,said it was normal for a body to mark / bruise easy, true, but his face was marked aswell, ref Patsy O'Hara's, heard that, I stayed outside, ref what went on inside, my brother in law Bosco Doherty was in there at the time out his name forward fir the strike, tbe O/C said mentally he wasn't up to it, he's mentioned in 10 dead men ( I think that's the correct title) I'd lots of mates inside and it was horrible, interesting piece on maghaberry prison strip searching etc on a friend's podcast
"Irish Unity- "get a link on Twitter, his name is Ciaran Cunningham originally from S Armagh, he himself is an ex Real IRA prisoner , he interviews a recent released Fermanagh man and the strip searching degradation is still going on , pm me is you need a proper link on sound cloud etc

Last edited by corks finest; 12-05-2020 at 22:56.
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12-05-2020, 23:05   #109
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Originally Posted by corks finest View Post
Was at Kevin Lynch's house,his face was definitely marked,RUC denied strongly ,said it was normal for a body to mark / bruise easy, true, but his face was marked aswell, ref Patsy O'Hara's, heard that, I stayed outside, ref what went on inside, my brother in law Bosco Doherty was in there at the time out his name forward fir the strike, tbe O/C said mentally he wasn't up to it, he's mentioned in 10 dead men ( I think that's the correct title) I'd lots of mates inside and it was horrible, interesting piece on maghaberry prison strip searching etc on a friend's podcast
"Irish Unity- "get a link on Twitter, his name is Ciaran Cunningham originally from S Armagh, he himself is an ex Real IRA prisoner , he interviews a recent released Fermanagh man and the strip searching degradation is still going on , pm me is you need a proper link on sound cloud etc
Ya....its a disgrace,whats going on in there

Ive read a few interviews about it,seems unnecesaarly vindictive and counter-productive....compared to what geos on in portlaoise anyway (usualy runs fairly smooth there afaik)


Between this and a rather clear policy of harassement by some members of psni and them not being held to account by policing boards have given saoradh a valid platform to raise objections


(Il have a look for that link in morning,if cant find it,il PM ya )
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12-05-2020, 23:14   #110
corks finest
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Ya....its a disgrace,whats going on in there

Ive read a few interviews about it,seems unnecesaarly vindictive and counter-productive....compared to what geos on in portlaoise anyway (usualy runs fairly smooth there afaik)


Between this and a rather clear policy of harassement by some members of psni and them not being held to account by policing boards have given saoradh a valid platform to raise objections


(Il have a look for that link in morning,if cant find it,il PM ya )
No prob
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12-05-2020, 23:26   #111
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Mod note: Uncivil and ignoring mod instruction

Again a reminder to everyone from the OP

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Mod Note:
As per History charter, any posts that are derogatory to other posters are contra-forum rules. Please keep on topic and interact in a civil manner, especially with those of different viewpoints.

Last edited by riffmongous; 12-05-2020 at 23:36.
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13-05-2020, 13:00   #112
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Think the class emphasis is important but the "protestant ruling class" is a fantasy. Rich successful catholics have the same interests and security as rich protestants. Neither have any interest making bombs in their kitchen or waiting in the rain to murder anyone. People at the bottom on both sides with no choices and little to lose get sucked into ****. Successful secure people dont fear civil rights, immigration etc. The LVF were not made up of barristers.


The solution might be to create a society where the options aren't so bad that you can be persuaded to murder your neighbours or to starve yourself to death because you have enough going on
The Protestant upper class ran all parts of the 6 county society from 1921. This includes

Civil service
Judiciary
Government
Police service
Universities
Private sector
Farms

Protestant lower classes worked in manual labour such as factories and the shipyard.

More Catholics started going to university in the 80s and 90s. Evidence of this is how South Belfast has SF and SDLP MLAs and local councillors compared to 20 years ago.

It's only in the last 25 years have Catholics moved up into a relative position of power.

To make further progress Stormont will have to address the orange and green ghettos that exist across the 6 counties by investing money, educaton and by giving youth more options
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13-05-2020, 14:56   #113
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Originally Posted by antgal23 View Post
The Protestant upper class ran all parts of the 6 county society from 1921. This includes

Civil service
Judiciary
Government
Police service
Universities
Private sector
Farms

Protestant lower classes worked in manual labour such as factories and the shipyard.

More Catholics started going to university in the 80s and 90s. Evidence of this is how South Belfast has SF and SDLP MLAs and local councillors compared to 20 years ago.

It's only in the last 25 years have Catholics moved up into a relative position of power.

To make further progress Stormont will have to address the orange and green ghettos that exist across the 6 counties by investing money, educaton and by giving youth more options

Yeah but by the beginning of The Troubles it was less the Protestant Upper Class that resisted sharing the pie with Catholics than it was the Loyalist Working Class; fearful of losing their cherished privileges in the face of declining economic position as the traditional industries that gave them preferential employment nosedived (eg over 100,000 manufacturing jobs lost since 1970).


From the 1960s a moderation in the position of the Northern Irish Unionist elite was evident. For us it was nowhere near enough but for many Working Class Loyalists it was a harbinger of betrayal. They may well have been right as the upper-class in NI less and less saw any benefit in the outdated and volatile hierarchy based on sect and ethnicity that had been the basis of their wealth and power for a long time. As a result in 1969 the reformist UUP Prime Minister Terence O'Neill lost his seat to the firebrand Ian Paisley and his government to Brian Faulkner, who had resigned to provoke the election.


Faulkner in turn committed to the Sunningdale Process and the Loyalist community rewarded him by bringing down the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive through the Ulster Workers Council Strike. This produced decades of direct rule from Westminster.


Basically working class Loyalists no longer trusted the traditional Unionist elite to protect their interests over those of the Catholic-Irish. In fact rather than trust them they preferred to pull down Northern Ireland as an autonomous state in favour of direct rule from London.



Essentially working class Loyalists were abandoned by their political class and doubled down on Loyalist bigotry and extremism enforced by their own arms and through their own parties as the only guarantor of the position they sought to maintain ; poor but British and still above the "Taigs".
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13-05-2020, 15:21   #114
corks finest
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Originally Posted by antgal23 View Post
The Protestant upper class ran all parts of the 6 county society from 1921. This includes

Civil service
Judiciary
Government
Police service
Universities
Private sector
Farms

Protestant lower classes worked in manual labour such as factories and the shipyard.

More Catholics started going to university in the 80s and 90s. Evidence of this is how South Belfast has SF and SDLP MLAs and local councillors compared to 20 years ago.

It's only in the last 25 years have Catholics moved up into a relative position of power.

To make further progress Stormont will have to address the orange and green ghettos that exist across the 6 counties by investing money, educaton and by giving youth more options
Sensible post,I agree 100 pc
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13-05-2020, 15:25   #115
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Originally Posted by CrankyHaus View Post
Yeah but by the beginning of The Troubles it was less the Protestant Upper Class that resisted sharing the pie with Catholics than it was the Loyalist Working Class; fearful of losing their cherished privileges in the face of declining economic position as the traditional industries that gave them preferential employment nosedived (eg over 100,000 manufacturing jobs lost since 1970).


From the 1960s a moderation in the position of the Northern Irish Unionist elite was evident. For us it was nowhere near enough but for many Working Class Loyalists it was a harbinger of betrayal. They may well have been right as the upper-class in NI less and less saw any benefit in the outdated and volatile hierarchy based on sect and ethnicity that had been the basis of their wealth and power for a long time. As a result in 1969 the reformist UUP Prime Minister Terence O'Neill lost his seat to the firebrand Ian Paisley and his government to Brian Faulkner, who had resigned to provoke the election.


Faulkner in turn committed to the Sunningdale Process and the Loyalist community rewarded him by bringing down the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive through the Ulster Workers Council Strike. This produced decades of direct rule from Westminster.


Basically working class Loyalists no longer trusted the traditional Unionist elite to protect their interests over those of the Catholic-Irish. In fact rather than trust them they preferred to pull down Northern Ireland as an autonomous state in favour of direct rule from London.



Essentially working class Loyalists were abandoned by their political class and doubled down on Loyalist bigotry and extremism enforced by their own arms and through their own parties as the only guarantor of the position they sought to maintain ; poor but British and still above the "Taigs".
The siege mentality will remain until working class Protestants get better educated - this happens rarely in the Sandy rows of the 6 counties, then again theirs no great government initiave to do so, hard to get out, education helps
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13-05-2020, 15:29   #116
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The siege mentality will remain until working class Protestants get better educated - this happens rarely in the Sandy rows of the 6 counties, then again theirs no great government initiave to do so, hard to get out, education helps

How would SF respond to a government initiative to direct education funding specifically towards Loyalist communities? I doubt they'd support it as it would be discriminatory.
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13-05-2020, 16:11   #117
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How would SF respond to a government initiative to direct education funding specifically towards Loyalist communities? I doubt they'd support it as it would be discriminatory.
Actually a few years ago O Dowd called for more leadership among Unionist politicians to encourage the need for more working class youth to attend 3rd level education so it has been highlighted
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13-05-2020, 16:13   #118
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The siege mentality will remain until working class Protestants get better educated - this happens rarely in the Sandy rows of the 6 counties, then again theirs no great government initiave to do so, hard to get out, education helps
But maybe the Unionist politicians know this and want to keep them stupid?
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13-05-2020, 18:41   #119
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Mod note: Stick to History please, and while personal memories are interesting, it's a central tenet of the forum here that you try to provide published sources and references.
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13-05-2020, 19:50   #120
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How would SF respond to a government initiative to direct education funding specifically towards Loyalist communities? I doubt they'd support it as it would be discriminatory.
Honestly they would,my friend is a full time community worker in the Bogside and an ex prisoner also hes SF to the core but has a working relationship with his loyalist counterparts in" the fountain"
Only loyalist enclave on the city' side in Derry, SF are a different animal altogether, inclusive

Obviously there's nothing exclusive anymore in the 6 counties.
What one community receives so also will the other
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