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10-05-2020, 22:20   #61
Rows Grower
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Originally Posted by Fuascailteoir View Post
For Bobby sands to have been sacrificed surely he would have been ordered to go on hunger strike and not to come off it. Nothing about sands reads that way. He comes across as being totally dedicated to what lay ahead of him and was going to undertake the strike regardless of the attitude of the outside leadership. I can understand how questions might arise in relation to the last three or four to die
Bobby Sands was determined to die on hunger strike.

The leadership tried to persuade him not to see it through the but he wanted to be a martyr for the cause.

It worked.
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10-05-2020, 22:33   #62
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A lot of misguided and misunderstood history on this topic.

First; the 1916 Rising had no popular support at the time. Had a relative involved and the story is that his family were horrified that he could have got himself involved in anything so stupid. By 1916 Irish people were happy enough. The anti Catholic nonsense was over, land issues were solved and, for those interested Home Rule was on the way (though held up by the war). Most people just wanted a quiet pint and a trip to Dalkey on the tram with their girl.

In contrast Derry/ Belfast was a bearpit of poverty injustice and subjogation for working class Catholics by 1969. If you read the circumstaces of Bobby Sands childhood it is no surprise that he turned to violence and death - including his own. Working class Catholics were beaten into subjugation

Fianna Fail and Fine Gael never admit this and persist with good old freedom fighters v the terrorists which is a lie

The civil rights movement was hijacked by Adams and Mcguiness & Co ably assisted by the B Specials, parachute regiment and a segment of the RUC. The truth is that the murder and pain achieved zero save a few trips to Washington and a holiday home in Donegal for Uncle Gerry. I believe myself that Adams knew all about Stakeknife but let him run as he was clearing the runway for Adams "International Statesman" act.

The rest of it was a cruel waste of youth and beauty that led to nothing but death and tears and has left a dreadful legacy of subhuman thuggery. Even now whole working class areas have been sold out to local Provo thugs or their Loyalist counperparts controlled by people so damaged they believe that it is a greater wrong for a 15 year old boy to steal a car than for grown men to capture the same boy and maim him for life.

While I abhor the likes of Adams/ McGuinness/ Sands I understand how people were driven to a kind of insane cruelty by what was visted on them. Less time for Mary Lou who just saw an opportunity for herself - or the creepy Dessie Ellis making bombs for other people to plant from the safety of the South. Topped the poll in Finglas. So proud
In my view you have a very simplistic view of history in northern Ireland, but it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Personally I view Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness as two men who among others were instrumental in bringing about peace in northern Ireland at great personal risk.

Do you actually really think that Gerry Adams risked his life from so many different quarters just so he could get a few flights to Washington and spend a few weeks holiday in a cottage in Donegal?
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10-05-2020, 22:44   #63
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He was an MP in name only. Even if he wasn't in prison he wouldn't have attended parliament or participated in the democratic process to represent his constituents. Thatcher was pretty cold hearted, but I fail to see why she would or should care more about Sands just because he was an MP.
Whatever about the 'MP in name only' semantics (and I accept the point you're making Zaph) Sand's constituents (IMO) knew what kind of representation they were voting for. A mandate of a different sort?
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10-05-2020, 22:48   #64
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A lot of misguided and misunderstood history on this topic.

First; the 1916 Rising had no popular support at the time.
Firstly I'm not attempting to contradict you here as truthfully I'm quite ignorant on the detail but I've often wondered about the truth of this, could you or anyone else point me towards some reading on the subject?

I'm familiar with the IT reports of the Rising Leaders being abused in the streets but I would certainly be interested to read more.
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10-05-2020, 22:55   #65
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Firstly I'm not attempting to contradict you here as truthfully I'm quite ignorant on the detail but I've often wondered about the truth of this, could you or anyone else point me towards some reading on the subject?

I'm familiar with the IT reports of the Rising Leaders being abused in the streets but I would certainly be interested to read more.
We were told at school the slow drawn out nature of the executions changed nation view,along with a pit for 200 bodies being dug,london had to put a stop to.maxwell killing people


(similar to drawn out nature of hunger striker deaths perhaps???, its said the country split along roughly same as civil war lines surronding the hunger strikes,would love to see a book/unbiased report on it some time)

Though tomorrow is sean mccaughey anniversairy (1946),last person to die on hunger strike in the 26 counties
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10-05-2020, 23:00   #66
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We were told at school the slow drawn out nature of the executions changed nation view
Aye and that's the bit I have trouble with, a rising with minimal or zero popular support transformed in a reasonably short period into a war with I assume widespread support? All catalysed by the execution of the ringleaders of an unpopular revolt.

It seems unlikely. Surely there had to be a decent (tacit?) level of support?
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10-05-2020, 23:06   #67
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In my view you have a very simplistic view of history in northern Ireland, but it's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Personally I view Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness as two men who among others were instrumental in bringing about peace in northern Ireland at great personal risk.

Do you actually really think that Gerry Adams risked his life from so many different quarters just so he could get a few flights to Washington and spend a few weeks holiday in a cottage in Donegal?
First off appreciate the courteous and respectful tone of rejoinder. Often these debates descend into abuse.

As to Adams, I dont believe he risked a thing. Remember he was never "in" the IRA . Happy enough to send other peoples children out to murder for him though. What was it all for?

Embraced the peace process to save his own skin when he realised the provos were thouroughly infiltrated. Think he is a treacherous sick individual capable of anything.

As to other poster any history book beyond the Wolfe Tones sheet music records that the people of Dublin jeered the IRA leaders as they were led away but sentiment changed when the leaders were executed. Think they were seen as eejits who did not deserve death.

The point I am making is that sociopathic individuals intervene again and again in Irish history to take advantage.

Remember when the British Army arrived in Belfast they were welcomed in Catholic areas as they were sent to protect them from a malevolent Protestant majority who were burning them out.

Didn't suit Adams and McGuiness & Co who spotted a career move - regardless of cost.

Bottom line murdering achieves nothing but death and pain
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10-05-2020, 23:15   #68
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As to other poster any history book beyond the Wolfe Tones sheet music records that the people of Dublin jeered the IRA leaders as they were led away
And that's what I have always heard also.

But a couple of points on that.

The people of Ireland do not consist solely of people in Dublin

I find it hard to belive that people who possibly did support the rising would have appeared on the street supporting the defeated leaders in full view of the military they had rebelled against.

And I have a hazy recollection of reading something that suggested that many of the abusers were wives of people in the Army, away in France at the time.

I suspect there is nuance to this I am missing and this is as good a place as any to ask.
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10-05-2020, 23:19   #69
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Aye and that's the bit I have trouble with, a rising with minimal or zero popular support transformed in a reasonably short period into a war with I assume widespread support? All catalysed by the execution of the ringleaders of an unpopular revolt.

It seems unlikely. Surely there had to be a decent (tacit?) level of support?
There would been tacit support (as with all rebellions here).....same as hunger strikers generally seen in many areas as misguided young men,in a horrible situation who got caught up in things they shouldnt have



I read somewhere that the area the1916 leaders/particpates were marched through on way to jail(?) was inhabitated by families of soldiers gone to war/been generally sympathetic to.the british.........someone with more in depth knowledge may tell yous more
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10-05-2020, 23:22   #70
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There would been tacit support (as with all rebellions here).....same as hunger strikers generally seen in many areas as misguided young men,in a horrible situation who got caught up in things they shouldnt have



I read somewhere that the area the1916 leaders/particpates were marched through on way to jail(?) was inhabitated by families of soldiers gone to war/been generally sympathetic to.the british.........someone with more in depth knowledge may tell yous more
Thanks Blaaz, I vaguely remember that too.
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10-05-2020, 23:34   #71
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First off appreciate the courteous and respectful tone of rejoinder. Often these debates descend into abuse.

As to Adams, I dont believe he risked a thing. Remember he was never "in" the IRA . Happy enough to send other peoples children out to murder for him though. What was it all for?

Embraced the peace process to save his own skin when he realised the provos were thouroughly infiltrated. Think he is a treacherous sick individual capable of anything.


As to other poster any history book beyond the Wolfe Tones sheet music records that the people of Dublin jeered the IRA leaders as they were led away but sentiment changed when the leaders were executed. Think they were seen as eejits who did not deserve death.

The point I am making is that sociopathic individuals intervene again and again in Irish history to take advantage.

Remember when the British Army arrived in Belfast they were welcomed in Catholic areas as they were sent to protect them from a malevolent Protestant majority who were burning them out.

Didn't suit Adams and McGuiness & Co who spotted a career move - regardless of cost.

Bottom line murdering achieves nothing but death and pain



Okay, again I think your opinion is borne out of ignorance but it is your opinion and you are entitled to it as much as I am to mine.

I can't help thinking that nobody can be that ignorant though but then again I've seen Brexit voted in so I'll remain open minded even though I have a suspicion you are trying to provoke a reaction with your simplistic replies.

I'd be confident most people would be aware the whole point of murder is to achieve death so that point does not need to be explained.

Thank you for input, dialogue is good, it's been educational.

Tóg go bog é.
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10-05-2020, 23:38   #72
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One must remember that there were thousands of Irishmen away fighting in France Belgium etc, many many who were in the Volunteers and were encouraged to go by Redmond.
The Dublin Fusiliers had been hammered at Gallipoli and in Flanders so it was easy to see why their families would see the 1916 Rising as a stab in the back. There are too many people who are totally ignorant of the big picture. Dublin had the worst tenements in Europe and joining the British army was a means of making a living. The same applied all over the country and it's easy to make judgements now about events then
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10-05-2020, 23:40   #73
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Dublin is not Ireland but 1916 was almost exclusively Dublin.

As to popular support; again Dublin was not Derry in 1969. Most people were happy and mystified/ horrfied to find the City wrecked. Know my own relative had a good civil service job and his family just could not believe he had been part of such a foolish adventure.

Another point there are lists of British army dead in Beggars Bush barracks and orher places listed on the web . Many were lads from Tipperary or Kilkenny murdered on their way back to barracks from a night out. Didn't even know the "rebellion" had started. A lot killed in 1916 were our own. Plus others were out fighting the Hun in France at the time
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10-05-2020, 23:51   #74
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[/B]
Okay, again I think your opinion is borne out of ignorance but it is your opinion and you are entitled to it as much as I am to mine.

I can't help thinking that nobody can be that ignorant though but then again I've seen Brexit voted in so I'll remain open minded even though I have a suspicion you are trying to provoke a reaction with your simplistic replies.

I'd be confident most people would be aware the whole point of murder is to achieve death so that point does not need to be explained.

Thank you for input, dialogue is good, it's been educational.

Tóg go bog é.
Dialogue is good. Plus murder does indeed achieve death. But nothing else
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11-05-2020, 10:55   #75
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As an ex republican ( N and S- arrested for suspected membership etc 2003- Dundalk)
Walked away after a lifetime of it , I can heart on hand categorically state that all the hunger strikers were used for political gain for SF, which in turn brought about the GFA
Before they died SF were dead ducks so the ultimate sacrifice brought about some semblance of peace
But they were used no doubt, anyone interested Google " Brendan " the dark" Hughes"
I watched a documentary on this, Darky Hughes and GA were real tight until Darky went to prison in the 80s. When he got out GA wouldn't talk to him.

Danny Morrison claims SF tried to talk Sands and come sway from the strike but many would argue otherwise
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