Can I kick her out?

Spook_ie · 25-04-2020 11:04am

Time wrote: »

Stop posting BS, there was no new legislation passed yesterday. Here's todays Oifiguil as proof.

Is that supposed to refute http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/act/2/section/5/enacted/en/html

Which specifically states

(7) (a) Notwithstanding any of the provisions in this section, all proposed evictions in all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Act of 2004, are prohibited during the operation of the Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Act 2020.

I'd think people throwing anyone out would be at risk of them turning around and throwing this at you, the salient points being "notwithstanding" and "those not covered by the act of 2004"

TheChizler · 25-04-2020 11:11am

Assuming it covers this situation for a second, which I'm not confident it does, what's the definition of eviction? Does asking someone to leave constitute an eviction? In a regular tenancy there's a difference between terminating a lease and evicting someone. I thought it had to include an element of force, legal or otherwise.

Quantum Erasure · 25-04-2020 11:17am

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is that supposed to refute http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/act/2/section/5/enacted/en/html

Which specifically states

I'd think people throwing anyone out would be at risk of them turning around and throwing this at you, the salient points being "notwithstanding" and "those not covered by the act of 2004"

Salient point being 'tenancies'

Dav010 · 25-04-2020 11:20am

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is that supposed to refute http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2020/act/2/section/5/enacted/en/html

Which specifically states

I'd think people throwing anyone out would be at risk of them turning around and throwing this at you, the salient points being "notwithstanding" and "those not covered by the act of 2004"

Again you are missing an important point. Licensees are not tenants, and their rental agreements are not tenancies.

If you go back a few posts you will find that I quoted exactly what was said in the emergency legislation, and a link to it. The emergency legislation covers tenancies defined in the 2004 Act AND non tenancies as defined in the 2019 amendment Section 37, student accommodation.. Nothing else.

The RTB asks for forbearance (the action of refraining from exercising a legal right) when dealing with rent a room or digs type arrangements. Unfortunately whoever wrote the text on he RTB site made a balls of it. But the law is clear.

Spook_ie · 25-04-2020 11:26am

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Salient point being 'tenancies'

Dav010 wrote: »

Again you are missing an important point. Licensees are not tenants, and their rental agreements are not tenancies.

If you go back a few posts you will find that I quoted exactly what was said in the emergency legislation, and a link to it. The emergency legislation covers tenancies defined in the 2004 Act AND non tenancies as defined in the 2019 amendment Section 37, student accommodation.. Nothing else.

The RTB asks for forbearance (the action of refraining from exercising a legal right) when dealing with rent a room or digs type arrangements. Unfortunately whoever wrote the text on he RTB site made a balls of it. But the law is clear.

I would say that the definition of "notwithstanding" and "all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Act of 2004" would likely overrule the point of tenancies, until someone takes a court case I'd be erring on the side of caution.

Dav010 · 25-04-2020 11:33am

Spook_ie wrote: »

I would say that the definition of "notwithstanding" and "all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Act of 2004" would likely overrule the point of tenancies, until someone takes a court case I'd be erring on the side of caution.

Spookie, read Part 2 of the March 27 Emergency legislation, it literally outlines at the start what is covered by the legislation, tenancies as defined in the 2004 Act, and other “tenancies” or licensee agreements defined by the 2019 amendment. It is right there if you click on the link to the legislation. Purpose built student accommodation was not included in the 2004 Act, it is in the 2019 amendment.

never_mind · 25-04-2020 11:35am

unhappys10 wrote: »

You're afraid to put her out your front door nevermind send her to someone else, lots talking brown here, including you.

You actually joking? Ffs... I was clearly being sarcastic.

endofrainbow · 25-04-2020 12:00pm

Do you have a shed out back ?

Spook_ie · 25-04-2020 12:06pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Spookie, read Part 2 of the March 27 Emergency legislation, it literally outlines at the start what is covered by the legislation, tenancies as defined in the 2004 Act, and other “tenancies” or licensee agreements defined by the 2019 amendment. It is right there if you click on the link to the legislation. Purpose built student accommodation was not included in the 2004 Act, it is in the 2019 amendment.

It would be of interest to see how a court interprets the wording of

(7) (a) Notwithstanding any of the provisions in this section, all proposed evictions in all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Act of 2004, are prohibited during the operation of the Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Act 2020.

you think it means tenancies as covered by 2004 etc. I think it means ALL as in ALL

EDIT to include dictionary definitions

notwithstanding = in spite of.
all = used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.

sweetie · 25-04-2020 12:12pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

It would be of interest to see how a court interprets the wording of

you think it means tenancies as covered by 2004 etc. I think it means ALL as in ALL

But she's not a tenant, she's a licensee

Dav010 · 25-04-2020 12:23pm

sweetie wrote: »

But she's not a tenant, she's a licensee

This seems to be difficult for some to understand even though the legislation clearly defines it. But we live in hope.

dubrov · 25-04-2020 12:25pm

Spook_ie wrote:

you think it means tenancies as covered by 2004 etc. I think it means ALL as in ALL

Yes. All tenancies.

No evidence of a tenancy here

Blondie919 · 25-04-2020 12:42pm

endofrainbow wrote: »

Do you have a shed out back ?

Go to said shed, get a hammer, some nails and 2 planks of wood. Nail them to the front of her bedroom door in criss-cross fashion. Problem solved. Oh, and grab a broom or brush and sweep her out the front door!

Time · 25-04-2020 12:44pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

It would be of interest to see how a court interprets the wording of

you think it means tenancies as covered by 2004 etc. I think it means ALL as in ALL

EDIT to include dictionary definitions

notwithstanding = in spite of.
all = used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.

The issue is that the 2020 act does not change the definitions of a tenancy under the principle act of 2004, nor does it provide a new definition for a tenancy to be used in the interpretation of the 2020 act itself.

As such the current definition of what is a tenancy has not changed, so licensees are not included in that definition. The law could have incorporated them but it didn’t. It only incorporated licensees as defined under s.37 of the 2019 act which only encompasses students in purpose built student accommodation

Graham · 25-04-2020 12:55pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

It would be of interest to see how a court interprets the wording of

You cannot take a single sentence in isolation. Context is everything.

Which parts does that sentence apply to. Look closely.

Time · 25-04-2020 1:01pm

Graham wrote: »

You cannot take a single sentence in isolation. Context is everything.

Which parts does that sentence apply to. Look closely.

Just on that point the interpretation act of 2005 sets out how legislation is to be interpreted, and in general the courts must look at the words used and interpret legislation on the basis that the Oireachtas meant those words. They can’t decide that the Oireachtas inferred something from those words that is not clearly set out.

So here a tenancy can’t be inferred to include a licensee, it must specifically state that to be case if that is what is intended.

Spook_ie · 25-04-2020 4:27pm

From Citizens Advice, whom I assume have some lawyers working for them

Since 27 March 2020, emergency measures have been in place to protect tenants during the coronavirus emergency period. These measures are in place for 3 months and also apply when you are sharing with your landlord. During the 3 month period from 27 March:

You cannot be served with a notice of termination
If you had been served with a notice of termination before 27 March, the notice period is paused for 3 months
Your landlord cannot increase your rent, even if notice of the rent increase was served before 27 March

Also

From https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/guidance_document_support_for_landlords_and_tenants.pdf

9. The emergency legislation states (Section
5(7)) that all proposed evictions are
prohibited. It is understood that the intent
of this provision is to address arrangements
which are often described as Rent-a-Room
and “Digs” style accommodation. Landlords
and tenants in such circumstances are
asked to show forbearance and support
for each other during the emergency
period and, where possible, and having
regard to the precautions necessary to
tackle COVID-19, to avoid termination of
accommodation arrangements.

Notwithstanding the caveat that they also use the words "forbearance" in the same note, it does state that ALL proposed evictions are prohibited.

I still wouldn't be spending that €100 you promised to charity

25-04-2020 4:47pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

From Citizens Advice, whom I assume have some lawyers working for them

Also

From https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/guidance_document_support_for_landlords_and_tenants.pdf

Notwithstanding the caveat that they also use the words "forbearance" in the same note, it does state that ALL proposed evictions are prohibited.

I still wouldn't be spending that €100 you promised to charity

It says landlords and tenants in such circumstances.... there is no landlord or tenant in the ops situation. I would not be even in the slightest concerned kicking someone out in a rent a room it digs situation as absolutely no way to the rules apply as has been clearly shown over and over.

Dav010 · 25-04-2020 5:09pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

From Citizens Advice, whom I assume have some lawyers working for them

Also

From https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/guidance_document_support_for_landlords_and_tenants.pdf

Notwithstanding the caveat that they also use the words "forbearance" in the same note, it does state that ALL proposed evictions are prohibited.

I still wouldn't be spending that €100 you promised to charity

At the risk of dragging this out further, why would the Government be asking property owners in digs/RaR for forbearance, refrain of exercising a legal right, if an eviction was prohibited by law? Seriously, this is 4 pages of posting muck.

Time · 25-04-2020 5:24pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

From Citizens Advice, whom I assume have some lawyers working for them

Also

From https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/guidance_document_support_for_landlords_and_tenants.pdf

Notwithstanding the caveat that they also use the words "forbearance" in the same note, it does state that ALL proposed evictions are prohibited.

I still wouldn't be spending that €100 you promised to charity

It’s clear you either haven’t read the legislation, or if you have read it, are not familiar with legislative interpretation.

So to make it as clear as possible for you, section 5(7) states that all proposed evictions from all tenancies are banned.

The 2020 act does not at all change the definition of what a tenancy is in any way shape or form. Therefore licensees still remain a separate category. This is a plain and simple fact.

As such section 5(7) cannot apply in this situation.

sweetie · 25-04-2020 5:46pm

This latest ****show has been brought to you by the letters F and G

Slydice · 25-04-2020 6:06pm

So, from what I know, new laws come into force and can have an effect on old laws.

The new law in this case is:

Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Act 2020
(Act 2 of 2020)
Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Bill 2020 (Bill 4 of 2020)

Webpage here: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2020/4/
Direct link to the PDF here: https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/act/2020/2/eng/enacted/a0220.pdf

The word interpretation is used in this new law. It has a whole section called Interpretation.

PART 2
OPERATION OF RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
Interpretation
3.
In this Part—
“Act of 2004” means the Residential Tenancies Act 2004;

“emergency period” means—

(a) the period of 3 months commencing on the enactment of this Act, and

(b) such other period (if any) as may be specified by order under section 4.

-

In this Part—
(a) references to landlord shall be construed as including references to licensor within the meaning of section 37 of the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2019,

(b) references to tenant shall be construed as including references to licensee within such meaning, and

(c) references to tenancy shall be construed as including references to licence within such meaning.

-

A word or expression that is used in this Part and in the Act of 2004 shall have the meaning in this Part that it has in that Act.

In the PDF file, it's on page with the number written 7 on the bottom
(though from what I see, it is the 9th of 43 pages of the PDF file)

Graham · 25-04-2020 6:30pm

1, 2 and 3 specifically state "In this Part"

That would suggest they apply to specific parts of the legislation rather than a blanket 'applies to the entire residential tenancies act'.

Time · 25-04-2020 6:33pm

Slydice wrote: »

So, from what I know, new laws come into force and can have an effect on old laws.

The new law in this case is:

Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Act 2020
(Act 2 of 2020)
Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Bill 2020 (Bill 4 of 2020)
Webpage here: https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2020/4/

Direct link to the PDF here: https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/act/2020/2/eng/enacted/a0220.pdf

The word interpretation is used in this new law. It has a whole section called Interpretation.

In the PDF file, it's on page with the number written 7 on the bottom
(though from what I see, it is the 9th of 43 pages of the PDF file)

The interpretation section provides guidance for how the act should be interpreted. For example it says that tenants are to be interpreted as including licensees as they are defined in S.37 of the 2019 act. Those are students in purpose built student accommodation.

Slydice · 25-04-2020 6:43pm

Graham wrote: »

1, 2 and 3 specifically state "In this Part"

That would suggest they apply to specific parts of the legislation rather than a blanket 'applies to the entire residential tenancies act'.

So, the heading is "PART 2"

in "PART 2", it says:
Notices of termination under Act of 2004
5.

5. (7) (a) Notwithstanding any of the provisions in this section, all proposed evictions in all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Act of 2004, are prohibited during the operation of the Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Act 2020.

dubrov · 25-04-2020 6:45pm

Slydice wrote: »

5. (7) (a) Notwithstanding any of the provisions in this section, all proposed evictions in all tenancies in the State, including those not covered by the Act of 2004, are prohibited during the operation of the Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Covid-19) Act 2020

See bolded part

BrianBoru00 · 26-04-2020 2:25am

MadDog76 wrote: »

Replaced if an attempt is made to circumvent the current restrictions by removing her......

Do you not genuinely understand?
She is considered a guest. Therefore she should return to her own home wherever it may be.

Regardless of the new legislation -Article 41 of the constitution gives protection to the family which the "landlord" in this situation is :"The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law."

So no, a court cannot direct someone to be put into your home against your wishes

26-04-2020 3:56am

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Do you not genuinely understand?
She is considered a guest. Therefore she should return to her own home wherever it may be.

Regardless of the new legislation -Article 41 of the constitution gives protection to the family which the "landlord" in this situation is :"The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law."

So no, a court cannot direct someone to be put into your home against your wishes

That's a very horrible reading of the Constitution.

I mean, your right in the last part but it's not because of article 41

MadDog76 · 26-04-2020 10:40am

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Do you not genuinely understand?
She is considered a guest. Therefore she should return to her own home wherever it may be.

Regardless of the new legislation -Article 41 of the constitution gives protection to the family which the "landlord" in this situation is :"The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law."

So no, a court cannot direct someone to be put into your home against your wishes

She cannot be legally a "Guest" as guests in your household are currently forbidden therefore she is simply a member of the Op's household (regardless of any label anybody on here wishes to impose upon her) and as such cannot be removed during the current crisis.

She is not being "put into" the Op's home, she's already there.

There is no grey area in this situation.......

Graham · 26-04-2020 10:48am

MadDog76 wrote: »

guests in your household are currently forbidden

I'd be very interested in seeing a link to that specific part of the legislation.

Can I kick her out?

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