The way forward for LC2021

Smacruairi · 13-01-2021 1:35pm

Am I the only one thinking that the lc will, and should, go ahead as normal?

More invigilators, and spread out the exams more, maybe even rent a few hotel venues, but itll be far easier to run than a whole school /trying to keep up timetables etc?

The remote aspect is a bit of an impact, but not a huge one imo, though granted I'm in Dublin. It seems to me those calling loudest amongst the student body for them to be cancelled are the ones who don't really want to study and are looking for a vent for their anxiety and this is it, as opposed to just engaging with work. We are 3 days into remote learning, most secondary schools have drastically increased their provision like.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 1:39pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking that the lc will, and should, go ahead as normal?

More invigilators, and spread out the exams more, maybe even rent a few hotel venues, but itll be far easier to run than a whole school /trying to keep up timetables etc?

The remote aspect is a bit of an impact, but not a huge one imo, though granted I'm in Dublin. It seems to me those calling loudest amongst the student body for them to be cancelled are the ones who don't really want to study and are looking for a vent for their anxiety and this is it, as opposed to just engaging with work. We are 3 days into remote learning, most secondary schools have drastically increased their provision like.

I agree with you. Futher adjustment of the papers if necessary, will help mitigate poor remote engagement/provision.

Bobtheman · 13-01-2021 2:42pm

If the rates continue to go down and if the vaccination continue then of course it can go ahead. The LC. That's a few Ifs and here is another. If there are no more variants or these variants are treatable.
I'd love to see a minister say something along these lines instead of the 1984 double think we usually get.
Morning - schools will not be closed
Afternoon - it was always our intention to close the schools. We never said otherwise. Delete all newsreels with this information and shoot those who say they remember anything else!

micks_address · 13-01-2021 2:51pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

If the rates continue to go down and if the vaccination continue then of course it can go ahead. The LC. That's a few Ifs and here is another. If there are no more variants or these variants are treatable.
I'd love to see a minister say something along these lines instead of the 1984 double think we usually get.
Morning - schools will not be closed
Afternoon - it was always our intention to close the schools. We never said otherwise. Delete all newsreels with this information and shoot those who say they remember anything else!

I don't think there's any issue with having it go ahead physically. Kids were in schools from September. I think the question is if its fair to have the exams given the amount of disruption the current leaving certs have had.

Bobtheman · 13-01-2021 3:38pm

micks_address wrote: »

I don't think there's any issue with having it go ahead physically. Kids were in schools from September. I think the question is if its fair to have the exams given the amount of disruption the current leaving certs have had.

I see your distinction but I still wonder if it's physically possible in June. That's issue number 1. As to whether it should go ahead or not-even if its physically possible-I think it should, with adjustments. It's still the fairest system out there.
Yes, it needs reform. I see no reason why students cant sit state exams at the end of both 5th year and 6th year but now is not the time to mess with major reform.
Cut what students have to be assessed at and plough away in June-if possible.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 3:38pm

micks_address wrote: »

I don't think there's any issue with having it go ahead physically. Kids were in schools from September. I think the question is if its fair to have the exams given the amount of disruption the current leaving certs have had.

This is exactly why the exams must go ahead albeit with accommodations made. What would the predicted grades be based on?

Wombatman · 13-01-2021 3:56pm

History Queen wrote: »

This is exactly why the exams must go ahead albeit with accommodations made. What would the predicted grades be based on?

Judgement of teacher, backed up by principle staff, with standardization applied. Thought that would be obvious at this stage.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 4:06pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Judgement of teacher, backed up by principle staff, with standardization applied. Thought that would be obvious at this stage.

That didn't work out so well last year

Wombatman · 13-01-2021 4:40pm

History Queen wrote: »

That didn't work out so well last year

No solution is going to be perfect. At least they can learn from their mistakes, I hope.

micks_address · 13-01-2021 4:42pm

History Queen wrote: »

That didn't work out so well last year

The principal had zero involvement in how the grades were awarded last year and the union deals meant no minutes of the grading meetings were kept

am_zarathustra · 13-01-2021 5:08pm

inbetweentea wrote: »

I do think the Leaving Certificate is fairer than predicted grades but it's just impossible for me to see how it will go ahead this year. I'm just thinking in terms of logistically having everyone in to do them - or if kids become symptomatic (or someone in their family does) around exam time. Could the element of fairness be reduced if the exam is staggered or postponed in cases like these? Would they not be common occurrences?

I'm not even including staff issues as I say this.

There is also very unequal take-up of online learning across the board (and I'm talking about for reasons outside the students' control...)
I completely agree that grade inflation is an issue with predictive grading...

I was wondering if kids provided paper work evidence of their learning (say- their best work or something) if that would work as a means of verifying the predicted grade (saw the idea of a portfolio as a proposal in the UK) but we all know, as teachers, that this would be very open to abuse..

Any evidence from home will be very influenced by the level of education of parents. I used to give very expensive grinds in south Dublin to kids in HL maths, I could get nearly anyone a H5, better if they had a bit of ability. I hated doing it but in the middle of the recession I needed regular money for rent. 100% these parents would have me on zoom now, for whatever money I made up in my head to make sure their kids work was fabulous.

For context I'm now in a DEIS school in a very deprived area. I think the kids should sit the exams in June. It's a great leveler. The main reason they are strssed is because of the media and parents. If they were told, the exams will be adjusted based on how much time your out, they would be fine. Those aiming for high points will quickly learn that every college exam is worse than the Leaving and a hell of a lot less predictable.

micks_address wrote: »

Definitely a challenge for students at the moment. Our son is working hard and has a good online setup. He has said repeatedly to us that he will be raging if he spends 3 months more killing himself studying for exams to be cancelled in April/May. I think its highly likely predicted grades will be used this year again. Best case is leaving students get back to school in February. At that point they will have spent 4 months out of classroom settings between 5th and 6th. Id imagine if it is to go predicted grades it will be announced in March. Its not fair to let it drag on. There's arguments to postpone it till July etc but you can't just wing it and hope its all grand by then. last years class and this years are equally impacted by the pandemic. maybe this years more. I don't want him to sit on his hands for 3 months if they do go predicted again this year.

Learning is also so he can competently move on to whatever course he wants. No learning is wasted, the goal of education is not an exam it is just a rough way of streaming people into courses (and I agree it could be better). Assume you have exams, just like I willl continue to teach as if there are exams.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 6:13pm

micks_address wrote: »

The principal had zero involvement in how the grades were awarded last year and the union deals meant no minutes of the grading meetings were kept

Thats not true. At all. Principals signed off on results and there were no grading meetings so I don't know how there could have been minutes of them

micks_address · 13-01-2021 6:15pm

History Queen wrote: »

Thats not true. At all

Please do tell. Principal’s keyed in the results. Only involvement they had in process. You have another insight? Minutes were not kept of grading meetings to protect teacher’s from come back.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 6:16pm

Wombatman wrote: »

No solution is going to be perfect. At least they can learn from their mistakes, I hope.

But in what way? Our system is fundamentally unsuited to predicted grades.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 6:17pm

micks_address wrote: »

Please do tell. Principal’s keyed in the results. Only involvement they had in process. You have another insight? Minutes were not kept of grading meetings to protect teacher’s from come back.

I took part in the process last year. Principals had to sign off results. They did not key them in.

micks_address · 13-01-2021 6:20pm

History Queen wrote: »

I took part in the process last year. Principals had to sign off results. They did not key them in.

Principal I spoke to said they weren’t not allowed have any input to the results. All they did was key them into the system. Might have been different in different schools

History Queen · 13-01-2021 6:23pm

micks_address wrote: »

Principal I spoke to said they weren’t not allowed have any input to the results. All they did was key them into the system. Might have been different in different schools

That principal didn't adhere to process if that is the case. There was a specific role created for the inputting of data (I cannot for the life of me remember the title) and principals were to sign-off on grades. It was a shambolic system and did a disservice to our students.there should be no repeat of it.

solerina · 13-01-2021 6:28pm

History Queen wrote: »

But in what way? Our system is fundamentally unsuited to predicted grades.

This.
We have very little proper exams to base a predicted grade on this year and I for one will refuse to do it, it was a disaster last year and I am not doing it again.

micks_address · 13-01-2021 6:29pm

History Queen wrote: »

That principal didn't adhere to process if that is the case. There was a specific role created for the inputting of data (I cannot for the life of me remember the title) and principals were to sign-off on grades. It was a shambolic system and did a disservice to our students.there should be no repeat of it.

What does sign off mean? If the principal didn’t agree with a grade they had no way of getting to changed?

solerina · 13-01-2021 6:30pm

micks_address wrote: »

What does sign off mean? If the principal didn’t agree with a grade they had no way of getting to changed?

He/ she signed the form...or inputted the grade the teacher have into the system. They had no input otherwise

amacca · 13-01-2021 6:32pm

micks_address wrote: »

Please do tell. Principal’s keyed in the results. Only involvement they had in process. You have another insight? Minutes were not kept of grading meetings to protect teacher’s from come back.

Did principals not take part in alignment meetings with single teacher subjects (deputy principals definitely did anyway)

Principals also relayed the dept guidelines/ info/ blurb regarding how predict grades to staff and I'm fairly sure my OH was in a whole staff meet8ng regarding guidelines delivered by principal......to say they just sat there and inputted results or just signed off on them without any other involvement in the process must be over egging the pasta for some places anyway

I'm sure most of them when inputting the results wouldn't let completely off theveall ones through either......

micks_address · 13-01-2021 6:33pm

solerina wrote: »

He/ she signed the form...or inputted the grade the teacher have into the system. They had no input otherwise

That’s what I was told from someone I’d have no reason to not believe

History Queen · 13-01-2021 6:35pm

micks_address wrote: »

What does sign off mean? If the principal didn’t agree with a grade they had no way of getting to changed?

Principal can return queried grades to teachers for further consideration

Details can be found @ https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/1afce4-a-guide-to-calculated-grades-for-leaving-certificate-students-2020/#oversight-of-the-marksranking-process-by-the-school-principal

I have screenshot the relevant part to answer your question.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 6:39pm

The fact that there is so much misunderstanding about the process and the role of different people in it just shows how bloody awful and ill thought out it all was (and i include myself in that)

Smacruairi · 13-01-2021 6:39pm

Principals, from my experience, signed off in so far as they checked (with their assistants) that levels were correct.if they were diligent they would ensure someone who had failed every exam would not be getting a H 1 in applied maths. Other than that, and relaying the dept circulars, they didn't have any realistic input.

It wasn't like a SLAR meeting with thr principal invited to comment and guide. They were purely overseeing the admin side of things.

Wombatman · 13-01-2021 7:22pm

History Queen wrote: »

But in what way? Our system is fundamentally unsuited to predicted grades.

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

History Queen · 13-01-2021 7:24pm

Wombatman wrote: »

We are already discussing some ways to do it. We will have error free standardization software for a start. Could involve principle staff a bit more, maybe take into account a wider set of results from the students previous years. I'm sure if you weren't so against it you could easily think of ways to improve it. Essentially the school are assigning CAO currency based on perceived performance. Standardization will do the rest. I won't be perfect but nothing will be for the 6th years of 2021. If you believe school staff will behave on a fair and objective manner, I can't see a problem with it.

I see huge issues with it. Why do you think sitting exams with changes made to papers is not a good solution?

I am against it precisely because I cannot see a way of improvong it to ensure fairness.

Edit: also many staff, myself included would find ourselves unable to complete predicticed grades in an objective manner given what happened last year.

Wombatman · 13-01-2021 7:48pm

History Queen wrote: »

I see huge issues with it. Why do you think sitting exams with changes made to papers is not a good solution?

I am against it precisely because I cannot see a way of improvong it to ensure fairness.

Edit: also many staff, myself included would find ourselves unable to complete predicticed grades in an objective manner given what happened last year.

Never said exams were a bad solution. I'm just saying predicted grades can work and shouldn't ruled out as being completely unworkable.

The main issue I have with changing exam papers is that students have already done a lot of revision. I think we all agree that students need to be put in a position where they can eliminate some of the material, the stuff they couldn't cover due to lost time. This could mean that some of their revision may have been in vain. They may have spent Christmas, for example, preparing for 4 poets in English, and might be told they only need three now. They could have worked on other material while they were working on that poet they didn't need.

But no perfect solution. The options and alternatives will have flaws but we need to prepare them none the less. Could offer the students one or more options but for everyone's sake decisions need to be made pretty soon.

mirrorwall14 · 13-01-2021 8:08pm

There should have been a set of exam paper changes ready to go the minute we locked down. The fact they didn’t or don’t appear to have contingency plans ready for this is absolutely incompetent

They should have sat down in September and said ok adjustments made assuming they’re in school now

Then organised a set of adjustments if schools were closed for two more weeks, four more weeks, six more weeks and eight more weeks.

With contingency plans for all practicals or orals.

That should have been published so that teachers could organise their yearly plans appropriately and work around potential changes.

Instead here we are. With adjustments that are not sufficient in some subjects. With no clear plan for practicals. No further adjustments to papers ready?

It is total incompetence

TheValeyard · 13-01-2021 8:33pm

Department last April/May

Department this April/May again I'd say

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The way forward for LC2021

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