Dropping hours

beveragelady · 29-11-2019 10:52pm #1

For a while now I've been toying with the idea of requesting fewer hours next year. I'm on full hours, teaching mostly English, and I'm finding it all a bit frantic. I just never seem to have time to do anything properly. The school week is hectic and there always seems to be something that requires my immediate attention so things like tests and copies pile up until I feel like there's no way I'll ever get through it all.
Meanwhile, my mortgage is tiny, less than €500 a month. I don't have kids to feed, clothe and educate. I don't want expensive cars or holidays. I'm on scale point 15. I have years left in the job but this year for the first time I find myself seriously thinking of ways out of teaching. Unfortunately, like so many of us, I have no marketable skills whatsoever. I'm at the point where it makes sense to ease off a bit and make do with smaller paycheques.
My understanding is that I'll have to drop to a maximum of 17hr20mins, (26 classes) which I presume will mean a new contract. Apart from pension implications, what difficulties might arise from this? Does anybody know how difficult it might be to get my hours back if I find I've made a mistake? Numbers are going up in my school at the moment.
Has anybody done anything like this? Is it madness?

Millem · 30-11-2019 8:12am

I didn’t know you could request less hours unless you were sick.
I thought it was 22 hours or 11 hours.

Bobtheman · 30-11-2019 8:23am

I would not do it. Why should you suffer financially because your work load is excessive? Ask for resource hours but first go to your doctor and ask for a diagnosis of stress. Which is what you have .
Give this to your Principal and make the request
Give up all voluntary work in the school
Look at the amount of correcting you do and ask is it really beneficial to the kids ?
Do you get excercise?
Lastly learn to say No
I would advise a few sessions with a counselor. To get your thoughts in order. You get six free sessions through occupational health service.
They are totally discreet.

listermint · 30-11-2019 8:38am

You've a time management problem.

I'd honestly suggest doing an online time management course.

You need to use a calendar and a diary. And book in the actual tasks you need to get done. That leaves time for the unexpected stuff in the gaps between. If something comes up unexpectedly then you place it in those available slots . You don't drop what you've planned already to switch tasks. Unless of course it's a severe issue.

You need to wrestle back your time. Your just not managing it effectively this obviously had led to time bleed and piling up of stuff resulting in this pressure.

Dropping hours won't fix this you'll be the same unorganized person

Treppen · 30-11-2019 10:19am

listermint wrote: »

You've a time management problem.

I'd honestly suggest doing an online time management course.

You need to use a calendar and a diary. And book in the actual tasks you need to get done. That leaves time for the unexpected stuff in the gaps between. If something comes up unexpectedly then you place it in those available slots . You don't drop what you've planned already to switch tasks. Unless of course it's a severe issue.

You need to wrestle back your time. Your just not managing it effectively this obviously had led to time bleed and piling up of stuff resulting in this pressure.

Dropping hours won't fix this you'll be the same unorganized person

How can you say they're unorganized?
Sometimes people actually do have a lot on their plate.
I'd hate to see time management courses come into teaching because I've witnessed them being used as an excuse in the private sector. Typically goes like this:

"There's a time management course you need to undertake"
"I've done them before + I have no time to go to them".
2 months later at meetings when employees complain of excessive workload...
"Well did you attend our fabulous time management course? It's you that's the problem"

Sometimes too much is actually too much.

thomasdylan · 30-11-2019 10:28am

Bobtheman wrote: »

I would not do it. Why should you suffer financially because your work load is excessive? Ask for resource hours but first go to your doctor and ask for a diagnosis of stress. Which is what you have .
Give this to your Principal and make the request
Give up all voluntary work in the school
Look at the amount of correcting you do and ask is it really beneficial to the kids ?
Do you get excercise?
Lastly learn to say No
I would advise a few sessions with a counselor. To get your thoughts in order. You get six free sessions through occupational health service.
They are totally discreet.

You make visiting a GP sound like ordering a pizza. One diagnosis of stress please.

RealJohn · 30-11-2019 11:39am

thomasdylan wrote: »

You make visiting a GP sound like ordering a pizza. One diagnosis of stress please.

Some GPs are like that though. Mine gave me a prescription for antibiotics last year even though I told him I didn’t need one.

Anyway OP, I recommend that you withdraw from any voluntary activities in the school unless you genuinely feel that they benefit you. I did that last year, for my own reasons, and this year, I feel reenergised and am enjoying my work for the first time in a few years.

listermint · 30-11-2019 12:36pm

Treppen wrote: »

How can you say they're unorganized?
Sometimes people actually do have a lot on their plate.
I'd hate to see time management courses come into teaching because I've witnessed them being used as an excuse in the private sector. Typically goes like this:

"There's a time management course you need to undertake"
"I've done them before + I have no time to go to them".
2 months later at meetings when employees complain of excessive workload...
"Well did you attend our fabulous time management course? It's you that's the problem"

Sometimes too much is actually too much.

Because of the way the described the problem. They drop things to do other things as they come up. Thats not managing time thats not having the ability to communicate to someone, 'im busy at the moment' 'i have a slot at X time'.

Nowhere from the description in the post does it appear the work load is excessive. Its not how it was described.

At no point did i say that individual managers can use them as a facility to make up for poor management though.

Bobtheman · 30-11-2019 2:23pm

thomasdylan wrote: »

You make visiting a GP sound like ordering a pizza. One diagnosis of stress please.

Unfortunately in the environment we live in - teacher's health ain't important. We are meant to take abuse that nobody outside of school would tolerate. The only thing that makes mgt. Sit up and listen is a medical or legal document
I might however,be doing this teacher's principal a disservice. Am I ?
Teachers themselves are often their own worst enemies. Constantly agreeing to everything and then moaning about workload.
Perfect example is inspector fear. It's all smoke and mirrors but to hear some teachers speak you'd think these inspectors had real power. They don't. PR exercise.

Treppen · 30-11-2019 2:45pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Unfortunately in the environment we live in - teacher's health ain't important. We are meant to take abuse that nobody outside of school would tolerate. The only thing that makes mgt. Sit up and listen is a medical or legal document
I might however,be doing this teacher's principal a disservice. Am I ?
Teachers themselves are often their own worst enemies. Constantly agreeing to everything and then moaning about workload.

Perfect example is inspector fear. It's all smoke and mirrors but to hear some teachers speak you'd think these inspectors had real power. They don't. PR exercise

.

In fairness though... There aren't many other jobs where some randomer can come in for 40 mins, and then write up a report on your overall performance... And then publish it on the internet.

thomasdylan · 30-11-2019 3:31pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Unfortunately in the environment we live in - teacher's health ain't important. We are meant to take abuse that nobody outside of school would tolerate. The only thing that makes mgt. Sit up and listen is a medical or legal document
I might however,be doing this teacher's principal a disservice. Am I ?
Teachers themselves are often their own worst enemies. Constantly agreeing to everything and then moaning about workload.
Perfect example is inspector fear. It's all smoke and mirrors but to hear some teachers speak you'd think these inspectors had real power. They don't. PR exercise.

I didn't see much in the first post to make it a health issue. Abuse wasn't mentioned, I'd agree that teachers are more likely to be abused now, but I think that's the case in lots of jobs and is an unfortunate reflection on negative changes in society.

spurious · 30-11-2019 3:44pm

Treppen wrote: »

In fairness though... There aren't many other jobs where some randomer who hasn't been teaching themselves for years can come in for 40 mins, and then write up a report on your overall performance... And then publish it on the internet.

Fixed that there.

The OP might investigate job-sharing. Depending on their own tax arrangements and entitlements, it can mean less work for not much less into the hand pay.

CraftySue · 30-11-2019 5:15pm

I know a few teachers in our school have reduced their hours through job sharing to about 18hours a week, they are usually off on the half day, meaning they are working a four day week, and are very happy with the arrangement.

Treppen · 30-11-2019 5:59pm

listermint wrote: »

Because of the way the described the problem. They drop things to do other things as they come up. Thats not managing time thats not having the ability to communicate to someone, 'im busy at the moment' 'i have a slot at X time'.

Nowhere from the description in the post does it appear the work load is excessive. Its not how it was described.

At no point did i say that individual managers can use them as a facility to make up for poor management though.

Thats not managing time thats not having the ability to communicate to someone, 'im busy at the moment' 'i have a slot at X time'.

Have you ever said that to a class of students?

Treppen · 30-11-2019 6:03pm

CraftySue wrote: »

I know a few teachers in our school have reduced their hours through job sharing to about 18hours a week, they are usually off on the half day, meaning they are working a four day week, and are very happy with the arrangement.

Be careful of the job share trap. Grand if you're allowed leeway. But I've seen plenty of cases where you're time is chopped up and dispersed out as wide as possible with no late starts or early finishes. In in the morning for a few classes... Then nothing till the last class.

Talk to other job share teachers in your school first .

beveragelady · 30-11-2019 7:41pm

What is the advantage of job-sharing over just asking for a new contract with fewer hours? I'm not pushed about days off or going home early, I just want more time to get things done during the day. I think the best chance I have of getting this is by making as few demands on the timetabling as possible.
Does anybody know of somebody who did this? Have I just invented the concept myself?

TheDriver · 30-11-2019 10:08pm

I have never heard of someone reducing hours as it effects pension entitlements etc. Going on approved leave or job share is the only possibility or resign your post and apply for lower hours whereby you reject increases over time to remain on lower hours.

All teaching work requires commitment and dedication so please ignore the poster who said to look for resource hours, this is not less work.

Millem · 30-11-2019 10:32pm

beveragelady wrote: »

What is the advantage of job-sharing over just asking for a new contract with fewer hours? I'm not pushed about days off or going home early, I just want more time to get things done during the day. I think the best chance I have of getting this is by making as few demands on the timetabling as possible.
Does anybody know of somebody who did this? Have I just invented the concept myself?

I can only tell you what I was told....it’s job share or full time.

Icsics · 01-12-2019 12:06am

English is a very demanding subject in terms of prep & marking. And the courses for LC change every year. Would u consider asking for TY/SPHE/CSPE? Remember as well you’ve just come through the busiest term, it’ll calm down after Christmas & h have until 1st February to decide on jobshare

beveragelady · 01-12-2019 12:44am

Millem wrote: »

I can only tell you what I was told....it’s job share or full time.

Thanks. Where did you get that information?

bunderoon · 01-12-2019 1:08am

I thought that teachers don't teach for >30 hours as to use that non-class time for the class prep etc.

And I was under the impression that any overflows would be addressed during the October (1week), Xmas (2weeks), February (1week) & Easter holidays (2weeks). That's 6 weeks throughout the year to play catch up. Not including the
~12 weeks of summer.

I've a few mates who are teachers and they've said on multiple occasions that this is what they do and as their curriculum more or less rotates back on itself every few years (English & French teachers), that they take a couple of weeks at the end of the summer to plan ahead until atleast xmas - if they need to at all.
As much of the work is pre-planned, they have time to account for any changes that the department puts out.

Millem · 01-12-2019 7:52am

beveragelady wrote: »

Thanks. Where did you get that information?

Tui and the leave section in the department. I ended up being granted parental leave. I knew job share was not going to be granted because of my subject.

The other thing I looked into was taking a career break and teaching elsewhere on less hours. I was told I could teach for an unlimited amount of hours and ever cover a career break contract elsewhere but I would not get paid all year round.

I did not look at resigning from my 22 hours and getting rehired on less hours in my school which is what I think you would have to do.

beveragelady · 01-12-2019 11:28am

Millem wrote: »

Tui and the leave section in the department. I ended up being granted parental leave. I knew job share was not going to be granted because of my subject.

The other thing I looked into was taking a career break and teaching elsewhere on less hours. I was told I could teach for an unlimited amount of hours and ever cover a career break contract elsewhere but I would not get paid all year round.

I did not look at resigning from my 22 hours and getting rehired on less hours in my school which is what I think you would have to do.

You might be right about that. I doubt I'd be a candidate for jobsharing because they have English five days a week and I'm told that makes it harder. And I have no chance of parental leave unless I'm willing to tell some huge lies...

The thing is, plenty of teachers are employed for more than 11 but fewer than 22 hours. I know somebody whose CID was for 16 hours. It seems to me that I should be able to ask for a new contract with 17h20m. It would mean dropping one entire year group, (so next year I wouldn't have first years, I suppose) and a CSPE class or two.

Am I right in thinking I can't ask for 18 hours, because they'd have to pay me for 22 hours? Even with a new contract?

Bobtheman · 01-12-2019 12:38pm

beveragelady wrote: »

You might be right about that. I doubt I'd be a candidate for jobsharing because they have English five days a week and I'm told that makes it harder. And I have no chance of parental leave unless I'm willing to tell some huge lies...

The thing is, plenty of teachers are employed for more than 11 but fewer than 22 hours. I know somebody whose CID was for 16 hours. It seems to me that I should be able to ask for a new contract with 17h20m. It would mean dropping one entire year group, (so next year I wouldn't have first years, I suppose) and a CSPE class or two.

Am I right in thinking I can't ask for 18 hours, because they'd have to pay me for 22 hours? Even with a new contract?

Talk to your union first. Be slow to take the views of mgt on it before that. I would first make the case for getting other subjects and also look at the way you work . A lot of correcting is pointless.

salonfire · 01-12-2019 12:48pm

bunderoon wrote: »

I thought that teachers don't teach for >30 hours as to use that non-class time for the class prep etc.

And I was under the impression that any overflows would be addressed during the October (1week), Xmas (2weeks), February (1week) & Easter holidays (2weeks). That's 6 weeks throughout the year to play catch up. Not including the
~12 weeks of summer.

I've a few mates who are teachers and they've said on multiple occasions that this is what they do and as their curriculum more or less rotates back on itself every few years (English & French teachers), that they take a couple of weeks at the end of the summer to plan ahead until atleast xmas - if they need to at all.
As much of the work is pre-planned, they have time to account for any changes that the department puts out.

It's 22 hours per week.

You're right.
For every hour teaching, they have 1.7 hours prep, correct etc, assuming a 37.5 hour week.

As well as the weeks schools are closed.

Treppen · 01-12-2019 6:38pm

salonfire wrote: »

It's 22 hours per week.

You're right.
For every hour teaching, they have 1.7 hours prep, correct etc, assuming a 37.5 hour week.

As well as the weeks schools are closed.

Where does it state they only need 1.7 hours prep.

Why are you assuming 37.5 hours a week? Is there a clock in system we're not aware of.

planetorez · 01-12-2019 10:04pm

salonfire wrote: »

It's 22 hours per week.

You're right.
For every hour teaching, they have 1.7 hours prep, correct etc, assuming a 37.5 hour week.

As well as the weeks schools are closed.

I'm assuming that mathematics isn't a strong point of yours.

1.7 hours preparation per hour of teaching is 22 x 1.7 =37.5 + 22 hours which is practically 60 hours per week.
Your assumption of a 37.5 hour working week would leave about .7 of an hour for prep and correction which is 42 mins for planning each lesson and correcting received material for each hour of tuition. I can assure you that this is unworkable for many teachers.
Your initially erroneous assumption is actually quite a realistic figure for many teachers' working week though.
But don't let me get in the way of your erudite analysis of all things educational... "fire" on...

salonfire · 01-12-2019 11:21pm

planetorez wrote: »

Your assumption of a 37.5 hour working week would leave about .7 of an hour for prep and correction which is 42 mins for planning each lesson and correcting received material for each hour of tuition.

Yes, you're right. I was responding to another poster re the number of teaching hours. I meant to say 0.7 hours per hour teaching.

planetorez wrote: »

Your initially erroneous assumption is actually quite a realistic figure for many teachers' working week though.

I acknowledge that teachers have a full working week, hence my 37.5 hours comment. And not the common misconception that teachers have a short working day.

planetorez wrote: »

But don't let me get in the way of your erudite analysis of all things educational

I rarely post in this forum and not on any of the finer educational topics.

Treppen · 03-12-2019 1:11am

salonfire wrote: »

I rarely post in this forum and not on any of the finer educational topics.

For someone who isn't a teacher you actually enlighten us on our jobs here quite often.

Edit: For further Irony, you post more here than in the Work and Jobs Forum.

rainbowtrout · 03-12-2019 2:35am

beveragelady wrote: »

You might be right about that. I doubt I'd be a candidate for jobsharing because they have English five days a week and I'm told that makes it harder. And I have no chance of parental leave unless I'm willing to tell some huge lies...

The thing is, plenty of teachers are employed for more than 11 but fewer than 22 hours. I know somebody whose CID was for 16 hours. It seems to me that I should be able to ask for a new contract with 17h20m. It would mean dropping one entire year group, (so next year I wouldn't have first years, I suppose) and a CSPE class or two.

Am I right in thinking I can't ask for 18 hours, because they'd have to pay me for 22 hours? Even with a new contract?

Yes but the major difference with those teachers is that they got those contracts because those were the hours they were on when they became eligible for CID, and clearly haven't improved their hours since.

Think out the legal ramifications of what you are proposing:

You want a new contract. That would in my view render your current contract null and void. You have a permanent teaching position (presumably). You can't have 17h 20 on full hours. So you would have to resign your job. Then the school would have to readvertise it as 17h 20 and assign your other hours to someone else.

Potential outcomes:

1. They do exactly as you wish and you get a new contract of 17h 20. You have to build up a CID again as it's a new contract, so you are vulnerable.
2. They agree to a new contract for you which you reinterview for, but then you are offered less than 17h 20 as they decide they need more of your hours to make a second contract viable for another teacher. You have no come back on this because you've resigned your job.
3. You resign your job on the basis that you will reinterview for lesser hours. The school choose not to rehire you and you are left unemployed, because it's easier for them to hire a new graduate and get rid of a teacher with longer service.

I've been teaching for nearly 20 years and I've never heard of anyone doing what you are proposing. I think your options are as follows:

1. Stay on full hours.
2. Go on job share for a year and see how it works out for you. Anecdotally from job sharers I work with they end up with about 60% of their current net pay as they are largely taken out of the higher tax and pension levy brackets.
3. Resign and go for a job elsewhere on lesser hours.

If you apply for job share and the school grant it, it is up to them how they work the timetable. That is not your concern.

Dropping hours

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