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Irish Parachute Club crash

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    #62
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If it enforces good practices and helps prevent future tragedies, the thought of that alone would bring some solace. If it exposes bad practices in hobby aviation in this country it will serve well.

    Why are you lashing "hobby" aviation,as you call it? This was a commercial operation, of a turbine aircraft, flown by a commercial pilot. It had and has nothing to do with sport flying and recreational flying.


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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    Why are you lashing "hobby" aviation,as you call it? This was a commercial operation, of a turbine aircraft, flown by a commercial pilot. It had and has nothing to do with sport flying and recreational flying.

    Parachuting is an aviation-linked hobby. The club hired the services of a pilot.

    Actually I adore hobby aviation, flying airplanes was my life when I was young. But there have been too many totally needless near misses snd deaths associated with it over time.


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    #64
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    I have made a number of changes to the posts that have been made today, to take out some unhelpful attitudes that were put into the initial post. Sorry it took so long, it's been a busy day

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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    #65
    nuckeythompson
    Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭nuckeythompson


    Seems parental consent was given on numerous previous occasions according to above linked article so will be interested how it turns out


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    #66
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Parachuting is an aviation-linked hobby. The club hired the services of a pilot.

    Actually I adore hobby aviation, flying airplanes was my life when I was young. But there have been too many totally needless near misses snd deaths associated with it over time.

    The operation of the parachute club is a commercial operation, as jumpers are both sports parachutists, paying for themselves and non-sports jumpers going out of the aircraft as tandem passengers, for which they pay a fee. The only "hobby" element is the fact that they are not jumping for a job, although the tandem masters, pilots and others earn a living from it. The provision of the aircraft and pilot is as commercial as you'll get. As for deaths and injuries in sport aviation, I've lost friends and had near misses too but it's a very different sphere from a fatality in a commercial setting.


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    #67
    Kevhog1988
    Registered Users Posts: 3,959 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1218/1185360-offaly-air-accident/

    Report on Coroner's inquest into the 2018 crash of the Cessna Caravan aircraft being used as the drop aircraft

    MOD A gentle reminder to all concerned to not just dump links into the forum without some explanation of what they relate to


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Looks like there had been a practice of getting the aircraft back to base, after all the jumpers had left the aircraft, in the most expeditious manner possible. The "thrill" of the the rapid descent may have added an element of "entertainment" into the proceedings. Alas, as someone earlier alluded to, a Caravan is not a 172 (even though it may have a lot in common during ordinary manoeuvres) and would have a lot of "momentum" in a dive, which if carried out too "enthusiastically" has this tragic outcome. I only hope lessons have been learned widely in the world of parachuting.


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    #69
    basill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭basill


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Looks like there had been a practice of getting the aircraft back to base, after all the jumpers had left the aircraft, in the most expeditious manner possible. The "thrill" of the the rapid descent may have added an element of "entertainment" into the proceedings. Alas, as someone earlier alluded to, a Caravan is not a 172 (even though it may have a lot in common during ordinary manoeuvres) and would have a lot of "momentum" in a dive, which if carried out too "enthusiastically" has this tragic outcome. I only hope lessons have been learned widely in the world of parachuting.

    Is that not the usual practice? Drop the parachutists and beat them back to ground, load up the next batch and get airborne again. Rinse and repeat. Aircraft engines keep running. Not dissimilar to the Heli world of short sightseeing flights that you see all over the world.


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    #70
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Many years ago, a parachute club in the UK had been using Cessna piston engine types for drops from 12,000 Ft, and they had to maintain significant engine power on during the descent to avoid shock cooling the engine, which made for a lengthy return to the runway to avoid overspeed during the descent, then they were "offered" the use of a Pilatus Turbo porter, (turboprop) for a while. It came as a significant shock to the jumpers when the new aircraft was routinely on the ground before the jumpers, as the standard operating procedure on the turboprop was as soon as the jumpers were out and clear, put the prop into beta mode, which then gave them a fully controlled descent rate of close on 9000 Ft per minute. At 1000 Ft above the airfield, restore normal operation, and land. Very hard on the ears of the pilot and anyone else on the aircraft, but absolutely standard operations for that type of aircraft, and the Caravan is efffectively the same, so no reason not to be using the same sorts of procedures.

    The pilot had over 2000 hours total time, with over 400 hours on the type, doing parachute drop work, so he would have been well accustomed to the procedures used on the aircraft, though there are comments in the AAIU report that he was known to perform steep turns on occasions rather than smooth flying.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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    #71
    Quazzie
    Registered Users Posts: 28,812 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Looks like there had been a practice of getting the aircraft back to base, after all the jumpers had left the aircraft, in the most expeditious manner possible. The "thrill" of the the rapid descent may have added an element of "entertainment" into the proceedings. Alas, as someone earlier alluded to, a Caravan is not a 172 (even though it may have a lot in common during ordinary manoeuvres) and would have a lot of "momentum" in a dive, which if carried out too "enthusiastically" has this tragic outcome. I only hope lessons have been learned widely in the world of parachuting.

    In the Parachute club, there was a French pilot, and he was known for getting the lads out of the plane, then diving nearly vertical for base. He always aimed to be loaded, and up wheels up before the first person touched ground. There was always jokes made when the pictures of parachutist came back with the plane in the background nose first for the ground.


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    basill wrote: »
    Is that not the usual practice? Drop the parachutists and beat them back to ground, load up the next batch and get airborne again. Rinse and repeat. Aircraft engines keep running. Not dissimilar to the Heli world of short sightseeing flights that you see all over the world.

    It unfortunately didn't pan out too well on this occasion for some reason. The report indicated that during descent the aircraft had built up nose down momentum too close to the ground. Maybe worth taking things a bit slower on a meatier aircraft in the name of safety. Nothing's worth a race to the ground.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Long ago in the 1980s I've occupied the second seat up front of light cargo aircraft going over to Central Europe in the night to pick up light medical supplies etc. Was advised to keep a low profile as I was t supposed to be there, but sometimes these line pilots would welcome the company of somebody responsible. I was well aware of potentially being a distraction, and sought mainly to keep my head down and enjoy learning from it all.

    However I was able to be an extra pair of eyes, and saw that the fuel cap was dangling in the slipstream on top of the wing after taking off out of south of England. Couldn't be seen by the pilot, who got quite the fight when I told him. Aircraft around London were actually put on hold as we made an emergency return to departure airport. I kept an eye on fuel gauges and all parameters were fine and that we didn't have to make very steep banking manoeuvres to hurry back as fuel situation was excellent. He wanted me to keep an eye out on where the fuel cap might detach and fall to ground so as to try and be able to retrieve it if needs be, otherwise we'd be at least overnight waiting for a replacement. I then had my eyes pealed taking careful note of landmarks should it come off, which it didn't. All I know is that I was late into work at my library job, and my excuse was not believed!

    An extra passenger can be neutral, a distraction or a help sometimes.


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Irish Steve wrote: »
    Many years ago, a parachute club in the UK had been using Cessna piston engine types for drops from 12,000 Ft, and they had to maintain significant engine power on during the descent to avoid shock cooling the engine, which made for a lengthy return to the runway to avoid overspeed during the descent, then they were "offered" the use of a Pilatus Turbo porter, (turboprop) for a while. It came as a significant shock to the jumpers when the new aircraft was routinely on the ground before the jumpers, as the standard operating procedure on the turboprop was as soon as the jumpers were out and clear, put the prop into beta mode, which then gave them a fully controlled descent rate of close on 9000 Ft per minute. At 1000 Ft above the airfield, restore normal operation, and land. Very hard on the ears of the pilot and anyone else on the aircraft, but absolutely standard operations for that type of aircraft, and the Caravan is efffectively the same, so no reason not to be using the same sorts of procedures.

    The pilot had over 2000 hours total time, with over 400 hours on the type, doing parachute drop work, so he would have been well accustomed to the procedures used on the aircraft, though there are comments in the AAIU report that he was known to perform steep turns on occasions rather than smooth flying.

    Yeah that all makes sense. Now I have really damn little experience flying, just about 70 hours of low frequency flying as that was what a person on minimum salary could afford back in the days of deep recession, but made just about accessible to all by Darby Kennedy. I took a short gliding course last summer, what a challenge compared to light aircraft like Cessna 172. It was only too easy to enter a spiral dive that would take me by surprise, but it was a way of appreciating the momentum of an aircraft in this situation, albeit a little light glider. Apply the maths to a Caravan, and I can appreciate the scenario that probably happened on the ill-fated flight.


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    #75
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,030 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    Is that not the usual practice? Drop the parachutists and beat them back to ground, load up the next batch and get airborne again. Rinse and repeat.
    As someone who built flight hours doing that, it was great fun.


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    #76
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    When you see a turboprop coming down, near vertically, prop in beta mode, for the first time,it looks like a potential crash or a Stuka divebomber. It's also a heart stopper when you are inside the aircraft, looking past the pilot at what appears to be a windscreen full of ground. Provided it's done right, it's harmless.....


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