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Were Protestants driven out of the Free State/Republic?

124

Comments

  • #92
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    or burnt out/threatened etc
    owenc wrote: »
    Yes and probably scared. Just the same as some catholics here in Northern Ireland.


    Not really. Those in the Big houses may have been threatened in the 2 years of the Civil war but that is not comparable to the decades of Catholic persecution in the North. Irish Anglicism was declining from 1861 to the 90s and still is the North. The two years of the civil war does not explain that. Remember there has been two Protestant presidents in the republic. Did any speak of persecution of the Protestant community. There has been population decreases of Protestants in the north as well and that can hardly be ascribed to persecution.


  • #93
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Well I was only guessing. I have never met a southern protestant, although there are a few people who I know with southern grandparents. I don't really know that much about them, they interest me, especially their lifestyle and views.

    I think alot of the decrease is due to the ne temera.


  • #94
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    owenc wrote: »
    Well I was only guessing. I have never met a southern protestant, although there are a few people who I know with southern grandparents. I don't really know that much about them, they interest me, especially their lifestyle and views.
    No shortage of happy protestants in the Republic. Some are good decent upstanding citizens, some aren't. Just like the rest.


  • #95
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Like I say they interest me.


  • #96
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    robp wrote: »
    There has been population decreases of Protestants in the north as well and that can hardly be ascribed to persecution.

    are you sure?? what about the IRA targeting protestants along the border...the kingsmill masssacre, the darkley massacre, enniskillen, teebane etc

    i reckon protestants living in those parts didn't feel safe


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  • #97
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    fryup wrote: »
    are you sure?? what about the IRA targeting protestants along the border...the kingsmill masssacre, the darkley massacre, enniskillen, teebane etc

    i reckon protestants living in those parts didn't feel safe

    Well it would be foolish to rule such possibilities out completely but the decline is still underway, even between 2001 and 2011. Is the treat of violence really so great so recently?


  • #98
    Madam
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Madam


    owenc wrote: »
    Well I was only guessing. I have never met a southern protestant, although there are a few people who I know with southern grandparents. I don't really know that much about them, they interest me, especially their lifestyle and views.

    I think alot of the decrease is due to the ne temera.

    Go to Donegal and you'll find loads of Protestants(presbyterians or COI), for some reason they stuck around after 1916/22 - maybe their closeness to the border or they were far enough away from more the southerly counties so 'integrated' more with their catholic neighbours?


  • #99
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    robp wrote: »
    Well it would be foolish to rule such possibilities out completely but the decline is still underway, even between 2001 and 2011. Is the treat of violence really so great so recently?

    ok, fair point

    i think a survey was done amongst students from middle-class protestant backgrounds...the vast majority choose to go to mainland UK colleges and most decided to stay once graduated, so that could be a major factor


  • #100
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    And if they have a Unionist identity then moving to Britain is perfectly natural. It's not like they would be regarding it as emigrating! Of course when they get to Britain they usually realise how Irish they actually are, particularly when there's a rugby match on!


  • #101
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    And if they have a Unionist identity then moving to Britain is perfectly natural. It's not like they would be regarding it as emigrating!

    Precisely. Many protestants had a unionist identity. Their sordid imperial project had failed in the 26 counties and they were now to be the same as everyone else. With Britain twice as prosperous as the Free State it was hardly surprising that they chose to go there, it doesn't need much analysis.


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  • #102
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Precisely. Many protestants had a unionist identity. Their sordid imperial project had failed in the 26 counties and they were now to be the same as everyone else. With Britain twice as prosperous as the Free State it was hardly surprising that they chose to go there, it doesn't need much analysis.

    that's why a lot left. Not because they didn't consider themselves Irish, rather they were made to feel unwelcome.

    The majority of protestants would have been no more or less wealthy than their Catholic peers, but they ended up being portrayed as the bad guys. Protestants played significant roles in every independence/home rule movement in this country yet they are generally considered unionists.

    I suppose 90 years of Catholic dominated education had the outcome McQuaid hoped for.


  • #103
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭hfallada


    I live in an area that was built for protestants. As in the houses were only to sale to protestant families. A few of them still live here. But they all appear to have no children or very few at all


  • #104
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Poor old Fred. Always looking to stir a bit of sectarian hatred. Despite the guff I suspect that a proper non-sectarian Republic would be the last thing he'd want.


  • #105
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    hfallada wrote: »
    I live in an area that was built for protestants. As in the houses were only to sale to protestant families. A few of them still live here. But they all appear to have no children or very few at all
    The point about Protestants having a lower birth rate is very valid.


  • #106
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Coles wrote: »
    Poor old Fred. Always looking to stir a bit of sectarian hatred. Despite the guff I suspect that a proper non-sectarian Republic would be the last thing he'd want.

    suspect what you like.

    Whilst not driven out, it became pretty obvious protestants weren't welcome in archbishop McQuaid's Catholic country. Pretty much every protestant I know, Anglican and Presbyterian, has been told at some point that they aren't really Irish, or their family must be soupers.

    The myth that to be Irish means to be Catholic is demonstrated several times on this thread.

    Now, please withdraw your sectarian remark.


  • #107
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Coles wrote: »
    The point about Protestants having a lower birth rate is very valid.
    I hear this point a lot. I suspect there is truth in it even though I have never seen any hard data. Surely with our excellent birth records going back to 1860s it would be dead easy to verify this in the Republic and the six counties.


  • #108
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    hfallada wrote: »
    I live in an area that was built for protestants. As in the houses were only to sale to protestant families. A few of them still live here. But they all appear to have no children or very few at all

    Where is this?


  • #109
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    A few posts back I mentioned ‘The Fethard-on-Sea Boycott’ ( Tim Fanning , Collins Press.)

    The best writing on this and almost anything else is by Hubert Butler - one of the Irish writers who should be ranked with Swift and Shaw, but who has been almost forgotten. Superb long-feature journalism.

    A couple of points. Ne Temere is, I think, central. Take my own family; my great-grandparents' 12 children were baptised Catholic (6) and christened into the Church of Ireland (6), the girls following their mother's religion and the boys their father's. They were effectively brought up in the established (Protestant) church. Half of them became Catholic in the later years; one of the girls after marrying a Catholic, another through mysticism, a third being bullied into it; the boys seemingly through conversion. But the Ne Temere requirement that the children of a 'mixed' marriage be all brought up Catholic was at the time routinely ignored. Not so later, when the Catholic church became the muscular bully it was from later in the 20th century.

    We forget completely now that Ireland was a land of utter bigotry, both Catholic and Protestant, before the Free State.

    Finally, we all point to various revolutionaries and say "But they were Protestant". Well, yes, they were, but they were mostly 'dissenters', which is to say Presbyterians, Methodists, etc - who were, like Catholics, excluded from many professions and from serving in their country's parliament, though they did not face the same acerbic contempt and utter disadvantage.


  • #110
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    that's why a lot left. Not because they didn't consider themselves Irish, rather they were made to feel unwelcome.

    The majority of protestants would have been no more or less wealthy than their Catholic peers, but they ended up being portrayed as the bad guys. Protestants played significant roles in every independence/home rule movement in this country yet they are generally considered unionists.

    I suppose 90 years of Catholic dominated education had the outcome McQuaid hoped for.

    This old canard again! Yes, some Protestants played a role in every independence/home rule movement in this country but I think portraying them as representing the majority of Protestants is a gross distortion.


  • #111
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    The best writing on this and almost anything else is by Hubert Butler - one of the Irish writers who should be ranked with Swift and Shaw, but who has been almost forgotten. Superb long-feature journalism.

    A couple of points. Ne Temere is, I think, central. Take my own family; my great-grandparents' 12 children were baptised Catholic (6) and christened into the Church of Ireland (6), the girls following their mother's religion and the boys their father's. They were effectively brought up in the established (Protestant) church. Half of them became Catholic in the later years; one of the girls after marrying a Catholic, another through mysticism, a third being bullied into it; the boys seemingly through conversion. But the Ne Temere requirement that the children of a 'mixed' marriage be all brought up Catholic was at the time routinely ignored. Not so later, when the Catholic church became the muscular bully it was from later in the 20th century.

    We forget completely now that Ireland was a land of utter bigotry, both Catholic and Protestant, before the Free State.

    Finally, we all point to various revolutionaries and say "But they were Protestant". Well, yes, they were, but they were mostly 'dissenters', which is to say Presbyterians, Methodists, etc - who were, like Catholics, excluded from many professions and from serving in their country's parliament, though they did not face the same acerbic contempt and utter disadvantage.

    I have never heard of people questioning the credentials of Wolf Tone and other non Catholic revolutionaries. Secondly even if they do, it might as well relate to the fact they are often descended from Cromwell's landed solders. So it is as much ethnic bias as religious bias.


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  • #112
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Here's a book on this subject that looks like an interesting read...
    'Protestants in a Catholic State: Ireland's Privileged Minority', by Kurt Bowen

    The conclusions are well worth reading.


  • #113
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    This old canard again! Yes, some Protestants played a role in every independence/home rule movement in this country but I think portraying them as representing the majority of Protestants is a gross distortion.

    That's not what I was trying to do. But you could say something similar about the Catholic community. Not every Catholic wanted independence.

    I wonder how it was viewed 100 years ago, did people back then as protestant = rich loyalists, Catholic = Irish revolutionary?


  • #114
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,929 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    I'm from a protestant founded village. The "big house" was burned in 1798 and the protestants remained as big employers through agriculture. All were protective and proud of their heritage but good people. My father lost some business by marrying a catholic and pretty much turned his back on religion, but is in his element watching Welsh people sing and watching songs of praise!! My aunts family were removed from their house back in the day and her father and brothers were shot in the most inhumane fashion (balls and ass) and took 2 days to die. That was typical "home Guard" stuff you see around the world...when unqualified "soldiers" are "protecting" towns...Their treatment was similar to the white farmers in Zimbabwe. Most of the big houses just like the vikings, became (actually they were)Irish and were the employers of towns and villages. They had centuries of experience in commercial farming and land management, but unfortunately they came with Cromwell and paid the price. Such is life ...Same all over the world


  • #115
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Qualitymark wrote: »

    Finally, we all point to various revolutionaries and say "But they were Protestant". Well, yes, they were, but they were mostly 'dissenters', which is to say Presbyterians, Methodists, etc - who were, like Catholics, excluded from many professions and from serving in their country's parliament, though they did not face the same acerbic contempt and utter disadvantage.

    Were they though? There is a long list, but Wolfe Tone, Parnell, Emmet, Hyde, Sam MaGuire, Fitzgerald, Thomas Davis immediately spring to mind and they were all C of I.


  • #116
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    robp wrote: »
    I have never heard of people questioning the credentials of Wolf Tone and other non Catholic revolutionaries. Secondly even if they do, it might as well relate to the fact they are often descended from Cromwell's landed solders. So it is as much ethnic bias as religious bias.

    I phrased it badly; I didn't mean anyone questioned Wolfe Tone's or Emmet's or any of the others' credentials! I meant that people pointed (rightly) to the fact that Protestants had fought for Ireland's freedom as proof that being Catholic wasn't central to being Irish - but I wanted to point out that most of these people were not members of the privileged Established Church, but dissenters.


  • #117
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    I phrased it badly; I didn't mean anyone questioned Wolfe Tone's or Emmet's or any of the others' credentials! I meant that people pointed (rightly) to the fact that Protestants had fought for Ireland's freedom as proof that being Catholic wasn't central to being Irish - but I wanted to point out that most of these people were not members of the privileged Established Church, but dissenters.

    Your completely right then. With the possible exception of Presbyterian and Methodists.


  • #118
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    robp wrote: »
    Your completely right then. With the possible exception of Presbyterian and Methodists.

    They would have been considered dissenters.

    What prominent Irish nationalists were Presbyterian though?


  • #119
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    They would have been considered dissenters.

    What prominent Irish nationalists were Presbyterian though?
    For the 1798 rebellion, most of them!

    I've had enough of sectarian divisions. Have you?


  • #120
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Coles wrote: »
    For the 1798 rebellion, most of them!

    I've had enough of sectarian divisions. Have you?

    Isn't that what this thread is about?


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  • #121
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    My aunts family were removed from their house back in the day and her father and brothers were shot in the most inhumane fashion (balls and ass) and took 2 days to die.

    were they the Pearsons from Offaly?? executed by the IRA


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