History of Ferries in Ireland Question

Millicent · 13-12-2011 12:21am #1

Hi, all,

This is a bit of an odd question but I couldn't find the answer myself and couldn't think of where to post it (mods, please move it if I've put it in the wrong section).

I'm looking to find out about ferry services from Ireland to England in the 40s. I'm editing a story for someone and want to make sure it's accurate. It talks about crossing from Ireland to England in 1940, on a "four-decker ferry". I can't find any definitive links to disprove or prove the accuracy of the description, but to my mind it doesn't sound right. As P&O and Irish Ferries weren't around in the day and as I cannot seem to find who ran ferry services in those days, I'm at a loss of where to even begin to look to verify the description.

Can anyone help at all?

shanew · 13-12-2011 9:20am

dont know if it's any help - but there are some details of the Sealink Ship Cambria from around 1949, on the following website. This served as the mailboat, running passenger services between Dún Laoghaire to Hollyhead from 1949 to the 1970s :

http://www.sealink-holyhead.com/ports/dun_laoghaire/carlisle_pier/home.html

Shane

Peregrinus · 13-12-2011 9:32am

During the period Irish Sea ferry services were provided by (a) the mail boats, mostly owned by British railway companies (LNWR for the Dublin-Liverpool mail boat; LMS for the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead mail boat; GWR for the Rosslare-Fishguard mail boat) or by subsidiaries set up by the railway companies and (b) boats owned by the British and Irish Steam Picket Company, which during the war years was under private British ownership.

The mail boats had contracts to carry the post. They had the shortest crossing times and connected with the fastest trains, and so were the “prestige” end of the market. After the British railways were nationalized their various ferries were grouped together as “Sealink”, but this happened after the period of your story.

The other ferries, the ones run by the British and Irish, were slower and lest prestigious. Since the company was British-owned, during the war a large part of the fleet was withdrawn from ferry service and put at the disposal of the British government for war transport. As a result there was a shortage of ferries which persisted throughout the war. I don’t know for sure, but I very much doubt that there was a four-decker ferry in service in 1940; it was the smaller vessels which remained in ferry service during the war.

dubhthach · 13-12-2011 11:11am

Peregrinus wrote: »

During the period Irish Sea ferry services were provided by (a) the mail boats, mostly owned by British railway companies (LNWR for the Dublin-Liverpool mail boat; LMS for the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead mail boat; GWR for the Rosslare-Fishguard mail boat) or by subsidiaries set up by the railway companies and

This is one of the reasons why the LNWR built a train station in the docklands with a branchline connecting to MG&WR and GS&WR dockland branches.

pu7hUusKIXZe-_r7Z9EfEFiy4YY4A17dzkBAFb90B45tPXBpZSZlPTQwMHgzMDA=.jpg

pu7hUusKIXZe-_r7Z9EfEFiy4YY4A17dzkBAFb90B45tPXBpZSZlPTQwMHgzMDA=.jpg

The second photo shows the "Railway Hotel" that they built as well.

Tabnabs · 13-12-2011 11:23am

Here is the Cambria in Dun Laoghaire. She entered service in 1949

And her sistership the Hibernia

Prior to that you had ships like the old S.S. Cambria

Here are the old SS Cambria and the new Hibernia together briefly

all taken from the excellent http://www.sealink-holyhead.com

pedroeibar1 · 13-12-2011 11:39am

There was a historyof naming Holyhead-Dunleary/Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire ferries 'Cambria' -
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20C/slides/Cambria-01.html and
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum%20Ships/Old%20Ships%20C/slides/Cambria-11.html
Correction - post above indicates this Cambria entered service 1949, so it's too late! The Canbria with the two funnels has four decks, if you count the life-boat deck, possibly it would not be open to passengers. One certainly would be reserved for first class. Older ferries had cabins on the lower decks, and at the back of my mind is a niggle that the older yacht clubs opened to provide breakfast to their members after the crossing.
Rs
P.

ejmaztec · 13-12-2011 2:11pm

Were the ships actually referred to as "ferries" in those days, or did that description only come in when the ro-ros arrived on the scene? I don't recall anyone travelling on the Cambria or Hibernia ever mentioning the word "ferry".

pedroeibar1 · 13-12-2011 2:56pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Were the ships actually referred to as "ferries" in those days, or did that description only come in when the ro-ros arrived on the scene? I don't recall anyone travelling on the Cambria or Hibernia ever mentioning the word "ferry".

You're correct, it always was the 'mailboat' in Dun Laoghaire and usually the 'packet' from the North Wall.
P.

Millicent · 13-12-2011 3:37pm

You're all amazing. Thank you so much. I was thinking that the four decker was a bit of a stretch, even with the Cambria entering the market in 1949.

So as to ejmaztec's question (thanks for asking it!), anyone travelling would have said they were travelling on the "mailboat" or on the "package" or am I reading that wrong? The author indicates the character is travelling from Rosslare, so I think GWR is the best option for accuracy.

Double-checking Rosslare Harbour's website:

On 21st July 1906 all plans were accomplished with the inauguration of the Fishguard-Rosslare Harbour Ferry service. Three new ships were acquired – St Patrick, St David and St George. Traffic increased and a fourth ship the St Andrew arrived two years later.

Rosslare harbour has continued ever since to be the arrival & departure port for thousands of emigrants and tourists all using the railways.

I'm sure this is the best bet.

Thanks also for the pictures. They're great to help me visualise details and to refer to when a certain description doesn't sound quite right.

Tabnabs · 13-12-2011 3:40pm

Some photos and info on the Rosslare ferries here
http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/GWR1.html

shanew · 13-12-2011 3:50pm

The official Mailboat ran from Dún Laoghaire - I think the others (Dublin port, Rosslare etc) would have been called ferries or packets.

Shane

Millicent · 13-12-2011 4:07pm

shanew wrote: »

The official Mailboat ran from Dún Laoghaire - I think the others (Dublin port, Rosslare etc) would have been called ferries or packets.

Shane

Thanks, Shane. So passengers would have called them ferries? I might stick with packets to be on the safe side.

ejmaztec · 13-12-2011 4:21pm

Millicent wrote: »

Thanks, Shane. So passengers would have called them ferries? I might stick with packets to be on the safe side.

All of my aunts, uncles, not to mention my parents, who flitted backwards and forwards on the Cambria and Hibernia from the 40s to the 70s, only ever mentioned "the boat", so that was probably the layman's term to cover their lack of maritime technical knowledge.:D

Millicent · 13-12-2011 4:24pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

All of my aunts, uncles, not to mention my parents, who flitted backwards and forwards on the Cambria and Hibernia from the 40s to the 70s, only ever mentioned "the boat", so that was probably the layman's term to cover their lack of maritime technical knowledge.:D

I'm in the same boat (pun totally not intended) for maritime knowledge so I'll take that description!

Cheers, ejmaztec.

eejoynt · 13-12-2011 5:15pm

try irish passenger steamship services by db mc neill from your nreaest public library

Millicent · 13-12-2011 5:16pm

eejoynt wrote: »

try irish passenger steamship services by db mc neill from your nreaest public library

I will do, eejoynt. Thanks for the recommendation.

pedroeibar1 · 13-12-2011 6:43pm

Even though the ships carried cars*, I agree with others above and would avoid the use of 'ferry' and favour 'packet'.
Rs
P.

*In 1909 George Bernard Shaw left his home in Ayot St. Lawrence by car, drove to Fishguard and via Cork arrived at Parknasilla. He usually travelled with a chauffeur and always shared the driving. (He had the same chauffeur, a Mr. Fred Day, for 31 years.) 1909 was the first of many visits, usually annually, always for several weeks, and often for months, as in 1919 & 1920, when he was a guest at the hotel for almost two months both years.
(details from from 'Bridging Memories, Sneem Co Kerry')

Millicent · 14-12-2011 2:17am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Even though the ships carried cars*, I agree with others above and would avoid the use of 'ferry' and favour 'packet'.
Rs
P.

*In 1909 George Bernard Shaw left his home in Ayot St. Lawrence by car, drove to Fishguard and via Cork arrived at Parknasilla. He usually travelled with a chauffeur and always shared the driving. (He had the same chauffeur, a Mr. Fred Day, for 31 years.) 1909 was the first of many visits, usually annually, always for several weeks, and often for months, as in 1919 & 1920, when he was a guest at the hotel for almost two months both years.
(details from from 'Bridging Memories, Sneem Co Kerry')

Thank you very much for all your help.

I will favour "packet" or "boat" where needed.

Peregrinus · 14-12-2011 2:39am

Millicent wrote: »

Thanks, Shane. So passengers would have called them ferries? I might stick with packets to be on the safe side.

The services from Rosslare and Dun Laoghaire were "mail boats"; the rest were "packets" or just "boats". "Ferries" would only used to refer to boats providing a passage across a river or an estuary, not a sea.

Peregrinus · 14-12-2011 2:41am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Even though the ships carried cars*, I agree with others above and would avoid the use of 'ferry' and favour 'packet'.
Rs
P.

*In 1909 George Bernard Shaw left his home in Ayot St. Lawrence by car, drove to Fishguard and via Cork arrived at Parknasilla. He usually travelled with a chauffeur and always shared the driving. (He had the same chauffeur, a Mr. Fred Day, for 31 years.) 1909 was the first of many visits, usually annually, always for several weeks, and often for months, as in 1919 & 1920, when he was a guest at the hotel for almost two months both years.
(details from from 'Bridging Memories, Sneem Co Kerry')

Cars could be carried as cargo; they were winched on and winched off. The first roll-on roll-off seagoing vessels didn't enter service until (I think) the 1950s.

Millicent · 14-12-2011 3:14am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Cars could be carried as cargo; they were winched on and winched off. The first roll-on roll-off seagoing vessels didn't enter service until (I think) the 1950s.

That correlates with what the Rosslare Harbour website says too. Thanks for the advice on mailboats/packets/boats too.

O'Leannain · 23-10-2013 3:12pm

Having emigrated on the mailboat in Autumn 1947 I note presence of the Princess Maud at Dun Laoghaire that year
w/ Hibernia and Cambria introduced in 1949

Question: Were not the latter 2 boats replacements for older Cambria and Hibernia?

Would appreciate response via e mail ilennon@rochester.rr.com

Thank you

gobnaitolunacy · 24-10-2013 8:51am

There's a series of books called 'The Irish Boats' by Malcolm McRonald, try a major library or purchase as they're not too pricy.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/279-9417195-9796339?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=the+irish+boats#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=the+irish+boats+Malcolm+McRonald+&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Athe+irish+boats+Malcolm+McRonald+

Tabnabs · 24-10-2013 9:19am

About the Author
Malcolm McRonald is a retired accountant who has been writing the three volumes over the past two decades. He lives in Heswall and is Treasurer of Friends of the Ferries.

Sounds like an outstanding cure for insomnia...

gobnaitolunacy · 24-10-2013 9:38am

Tabnabs wrote: »

Sounds like an outstanding cure for insomnia...

Read a book once where the author's interests included 'watching daytime tv serials.'

tac foley · 25-10-2013 11:15am

Tabnabs wrote: »

Here is the Cambria in Dun Laoghaire. She entered service in 1949

And her sistership the Hibernia

Prior to that you had ships like the old S.S. Cambria

Here are the old SS Cambria and the new Hibernia together briefly

all taken from the excellent http://www.sealink-holyhead.com

That's how my mon and dad and I used to go over to Ireland. But you have overlooked their predecessor, the 'Princess Maud'. It rolled like an alligator, not having stabilisers like C & H did.

All gave us the problem of having to remove the sidecar from dad's m/c combination so that they coul pick it up in cargo nets and put it in with the mail. On one occasion Hibernia had just cleared the outer harbour wall when it turned back - 'Who is that foul-mouthed man on the quayside?' asked one passenger of my mother. 'I'm sure I have no idea', responded my mother, looking away so that my dad, standing there in the rain with the sidecar beside him, would not catch her eye.....

Both Cambria and Hibernia were built by Harland & Wolff in Belfast, and were fine ships of their day, long made into razor blades, I fear.

tac

History of Ferries in Ireland Question

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