Should people who refuse to fold up buggies for wheelchair users on buses be fined?

Try_harder wrote: »

I thought a case taken re Equality legislation meant they did not have priority over buggies?

"They" never had guaranteed availability of the Disabled Bay.

What the regulations provide for is that the Operators must provide the relevant Dedicated Space,the means of access to it (usually via a ramp) and the appropriate level of training for Staff who operate the service.

That ends the legal requirement for the Operator.

As it currently stands,a Busdriver MUST request (and be heard to Request) the Buggy owner to fold and stow the buggy to accomodate the Wheelchair user.

Should the Buggy Pusher refuse,then the matter ends there,and the Wheelchair Passenger is refused access.

This is the current situation in The REPUBLIC of IRELAND and up until March 2017,the UK.

In March 2017,following a lengthy series of Judgements and appeals in what is now known as the Paulley Case,the UK Busdriver is now required to venture further and ascertain a reason why the Buggy Pusher refuses,up to,and including Switching Off the Engine and waiting to see if that will prompt a rethink.

The salient point here,is that even under the new UK regulations,a Busdriver does NOT have the legal authority to force the Buggy Pusher to fold & stow.

The UK Supreme Court,not having many Busdrivers on it's bench, has now effectively exposed UK Busdrivers to significantly increased risk of confrontation and perhaps assault,when attempting to enforce the Court's ruling on the Streets.

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0025.html

The Supreme Court unanimously allows Mr Paulley’s appeal, albeit only to a limited extent.
Lord Neuberger gives the lead judgment (with which Lord Reed agrees) allowing the appeal but only to the extent that FirstGroup’s policy requiring a driver to simply request a non-wheelchair user to vacate the space without taking any further steps was unjustified. Where a driver who has made such a request concludes that a refusal is unreasonable, he or she should consider some further step to pressurise the non-wheelchair user to vacate the space, depending on the circumstances. Lord Toulson and Lord Sumption write concurring judgments. On the issue of the order to be made, this majority declines to uphold an award of damages.

The majority of NTA spec double deck vehicles now have TWO spaces,BOTH of which can be utilised by Occupied Buggies,with one space being approved for Wheelchairs.

The convention,and standing instruction for all Bus Atha Cliath Busdrivers is to advise the initial Buggy Pusher to occupy the clearly marked Buggy Space,just opposite the Centre Doors and behind the Stairwell.

This then leaves the Wheelchair space free for a second Occupied Buggy,whose pusher should be advised,on boarding that they WILL be asked to fold & stow the buggy should a Wheelchair user present for boarding.

By far and away the most confounding element in this scenario,is the NTA insistance on fitting a pair of Flip Down Seats in the Buggy Space.

These seats are viewed (mistakenly) as being intended for elderly or mobility challenged passengers...THEY ARE NOT. (The two seats behind ARE marked for that sector).

If the NTA would remove this pair of Flip Down seats from the new vehicle specification it would immediately improve the Access issue for BOTH Wheelchair AND Buggy users...Retro removing the seats would really solve up to 90% of the often fractious and ill tempered exchanges between Busdrivers and Passengers themselves.

Make it simple.....the simpler the better,and remove most of the "choice" available,as,left to their own devices,the average Human Being will choose what is most convienent for THEMSELVES.

It should be noted ,that in the immediate wake of the Paulley judgement,there was a spell of increased activity in the Irish context,which luckily did not last long.

It's probably not lost on Irish Public Transport Operators,that should an Irish Busdriver,embark upon the course of action now required by the UK Supreme Court Judgement a veritable Tsunami of Court Cases would ensue,focusing upon individuals being subject to excessive embarrassment,or personal stress by wild-eyed Busdrivers.

Mr Paulleys total award,following his initial successful case was £4,500,a sum which would be considered derisory in the Irish system,however the Supreme Court judgement failed to maintain the aware,leaving Mr Paulley with only the satisfaction of kinda,sorta winning the case ?

Heaven alone knows what will develop if our Courts get involved on this issue ? :eek:

Very difficult for a person to fold pram with baby and odds and ends in tow. How is it possible? What if baby is special needs? What if bus is crowded?

Wonder does this new id thing for pregnant women have an expiry date like the disabled car card?

Kayden Wrong Sphere wrote: »

Try getting a parent who has shopping and a young child in a buggy to somehow manage the bags, take the child( probably sleeping) out of the buggy and fold it.
It's absolute nonsense at its finest.

It's even harder for the person in the wheelchair to get out of it and put it on the luggage rack!!

yes, what's wrong with waiting for next bus ?
- either the wheelchair owners, the children/buggies, or most of all, the standard passengers that have no seats and stand in the bus ... safety first for all

or is the issue here that there should be more buses ?

PS: for me it is common sense letting a heavily pregnant woman take a seat anywhere, and i wouldn't be offended if she jumps a queue in front of me neither.

Kayden Wrong Sphere wrote: »

Ive been that soldier. I found a wonderful word...in fact, I think I invented it......NO!....works a treat

I use 1 myself, starts with t, ends with p.

The solution is that ALL buggies should be folded unless a child is disabled. If there is a buggy space and wheelchair space a 2nd parent with buggy should be told to wait for the next bus.

The disabled are too quiet, they should block the bus if refused admission. I blame the driver, he/she should refuse to drive another inch til the b***h folds the buggy.

The best solution might be to have at least one space on a bus dedicated for a wheel chair, which cannot be used for any other purposes, this would be a little inefficient but would prevent a wheel chair user feeling that someone had to give up their position for them which is a bit unfair for the wheel chair user. A person with a wheel chair should always have priority over buggies.

Having at least one wheel chair only space could allow wheel chair users to check if a particular bus has a wheel chair using the Dublin Bus app, or to even book a space (but this might be tricky to implement).