Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Clegg · 11-08-2020 3:50pm

Hooker is a major problem area. Rob Herring is the incumbent, but he's only ok at test level. The next senior option is Niall Scannell, but he's just ok as well. Ronan Kelleher is the great hope now, but he's just 22 years old and in his first full season of rugby. Cupboards seem a bit bare.

Dog Botherer · 11-08-2020 3:55pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Madigan's "old Leinster form" couldn't get him a consistent starting role there and his career has fallen away since then. There's little to no chance of him getting capped again outside of a crazy injury crisis.

he wouldn’t be looking for a consistent starting spot. Steyn wasn’t exactly blowing people away with his form before the WC and was mostly used as a break glass in case of emergency. Madigan has obviously been crap for a while now but that doesn’t mean he can’t turn that around.

before this turns into a whole thing I am not advocating for dropping Carbery for Madigan or some other nonsense. just positing an idea that Farrell could play with should Madigan perform well in the interpros.

PMC83 · 11-08-2020 3:58pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Madigan's "old Leinster form" couldn't get him a consistent starting role there and his career has fallen away since then. There's little to no chance of him getting capped again outside of a crazy injury crisis.

I agree but we're not exactly spoiled with choices. Johnny and Joey have high enough injury profiles. Its easy enough to see a situation where they are both out. Then we have the two Byrnes, Billy Burns and Carty.All low to no caps. If Madigan finds form we could yet see him back.

clsmooth · 11-08-2020 3:58pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

If we don't throw caution to the wind this year then we never will. Hopefully the time off has given andy space to assess and get comfortable. We need a full reboot from the last 12 months imo. Maybe Murray rediscovers his form etc. Lowe is a no brainer. baird as well.

I don’t think Baird is a no brainier just yet. He’s got a great chance to put himself in the mix over the next month or two though.

aloooof · 11-08-2020 4:04pm

I really don't see Madigan picking up any more caps (during this window or otherwise) tbh. His first job is to get ahead of Burns at provincial level. We don't know if he'll even manage that yet, let alone get near international level.

[Deleted User] · 11-08-2020 4:28pm

aloooof wrote: »

I really don't see Madigan picking up any more caps (during this window or otherwise) tbh. His first job is to get ahead of Burns at provincial level. We don't know if he'll even manage that yet, let alone get near international level.

I'm not sure what I'm looking forward to more - Madigan getting picked for Ireland, or awec having to defend the selection :pac:

Paul Smeenus · 11-08-2020 4:39pm

Burns and O'Toole were full squad members who could have seen some game versus Italy. Whether they will now, with all the disruption, is another matter. But if be surprised if one or both of them aren't new caps in thid upcoming run of games.

Richie_Rich89 · 11-08-2020 6:30pm

My stab at a squad:

LH: Healy, Kilcoyne, McGrath
HK: Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan
TH: Furlong, Porter, O'Toole, Bealham
LK: Ryan, Toner, Henderson, Roux, Thornbury
BS: Stander, Jos. Murphy, O'Donoghue
OS: Connors, O'Mahony, Reidy
No. 8: Doris, Deegan
SH: Murray, Cooney, McGrath
OH: Sexton, R. Byrne, Frawley, H. Byrne
LW: Lowe, Larmour
IC: Aki, Henshaw
OC: Ringrose, T. Farrell
RW: Baloucoune, Conway
FB: Stockdale, Gallagher

clsmooth · 11-08-2020 7:40pm

I’d rather see Larmour at 15 than Stockdale. Think Stockdale has too many holes in his game at the moment and not convinced he’d make a good fullback (I know he played there at underage levels but this is senior rugby). Defensive positioning and decision making are his weak points on the wing and I think it’d be magnified at 15. That’s not to say he’ll never make a very good fullback but just think Larmour is well ahead of him for 15 at the moment.

Now Lowe at 15 with Larmour at 14 and Stockdale at 11 could very well be an option. Lowe’s defence has come on hugely since he first joined and he’s got a big boot on him. Pretty sure he’s played a bit of 15 in NZ too. Didn’t he start for the Maori against the Lions at 15? Imagine Lowe breaking the defensive line and getting an offload off to Stockdale :eek:

Leinstertomas · 11-08-2020 9:14pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

My stab at a squad:

LH: Healy, Kilcoyne, McGrath
HK: Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan
TH: Furlong, Porter, O'Toole, Bealham
LK: Ryan, Toner, Henderson, Roux, Thornbury
BS: Stander, Jos. Murphy, O'Donoghue
OS: Connors, O'Mahony, Reidy
No. 8: Doris, Deegan
SH: Murray, Cooney, McGrath
OH: Sexton, R. Byrne, Frawley, H. Byrne
LW: Lowe, Larmour
IC: Aki, Henshaw
OC: Ringrose, T. Farrell
RW: Baloucoune, Conway
FB: Stockdale, Gallagher

Reidy over Van der Flier?
Also think Conan could well play him self into squad

Squidgy Black · 11-08-2020 9:30pm

clsmooth wrote: »

I’d rather see Larmour at 15 than Stockdale. Think Stockdale has too many holes in his game at the moment and not convinced he’d make a good fullback (I know he played there at underage levels but this is senior rugby). Defensive positioning and decision making are his weak points on the wing and I think it’d be magnified at 15. That’s not to say he’ll never make a very good fullback but just think Larmour is well ahead of him for 15 at the moment.

Now Lowe at 15 with Larmour at 14 and Stockdale at 11 could very well be an option. Lowe’s defence has come on hugely since he first joined and he’s got a big boot on him. Pretty sure he’s played a bit of 15 in NZ too. Didn’t he start for the Maori against the Lions at 15? Imagine Lowe breaking the defensive line and getting an offload off to Stockdale :eek:

Stockdale played a couple games at 15 last season for Ulster, most notably against Quins in the Champions Cup.

theVersatile · 11-08-2020 9:33pm

Kleyn for Thornbury, VDF for Reidy and one of Conan/Leavy for Josh Murphy

jacothelad · 11-08-2020 9:33pm

Marty Moore .......

molloyjh · 11-08-2020 9:39pm

Not sure we'd go as far as a 45 man squad. Possibly 42 along the lines of:

LH: Healy, Killer, McGrath
HK: Kelleher, Herring, Scannell
TH: Furlong, Porter, O'Toole
LK: Ryan, Henderson, Toner, Kleyn, Baird, Beirne
BS: Stander, POM, Ruddock
OS: VDF, Connors, Leavy
N8: Conan, Doris, Deegan

SH: Murray, McGrath, Cooney
OH: Sexton, Carbery, R Byrne, Carty
IC: Aki, Henshaw
OC: Ringrose, C Farrell
WG: Earls, Stockdale, Lowe, Balacoune, D Kearney
FB: Larmour, Conway

molloyjh · 11-08-2020 9:41pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Marty Moore .......

O'Toole was ahead of him earlier in the year. I'd assume that would remain the case.

jacothelad · 11-08-2020 9:54pm

molloyjh wrote: »

O'Toole was ahead of him earlier in the year. I'd assume that would remain the case.

O'Toole beings mobility but Moore is simply a better tight head at the primary role of a prop. O'Toole might and hopefully will get better as a scrummager but he would need to as he is just o.k. If Ireland were defending a 5m scrum or attacking near the opponents line I know which of the 2 would be better. It depends on how Marty has managed the pies and pizzas over the last few months...:D:D

molloyjh · 11-08-2020 10:51pm

jacothelad wrote: »

O'Toole beings mobility but Moore is simply a better tight head at the primary role of a prop. O'Toole might and hopefully will get better as a scrummager but he would need to as he is just o.k. If Ireland were defending a 5m scrum or attacking near the opponents line I know which of the 2 would be better. It depends on how Marty has managed the pies and pizzas over the last few months...:D:D

Better than I have hopefully.

Richie_Rich89 · 11-08-2020 11:03pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

My stab at a squad:

LH: Healy, Kilcoyne, McGrath
HK: Herring, Kelleher, Heffernan
TH: Furlong, Porter, O'Toole, Bealham
LK: Ryan, Toner, Henderson, Roux, Thornbury
BS: Stander, Jos. Murphy, O'Donoghue
OS: Connors, O'Mahony, Reidy
No. 8: Doris, Deegan
SH: Murray, Cooney, McGrath
OH: Sexton, R. Byrne, Frawley, H. Byrne
LW: Lowe, Larmour
IC: Aki, Henshaw
OC: Ringrose, T. Farrell
RW: Baloucoune, Conway
FB: Stockdale, Gallagher

Forgot Baird. Stick him in there. Could he make his international bow before he appears in the European Cup? It's a real possibility with Cullen opting to keep Fardy on rather than backing the emergent homegrown talent.

Shefwedfan · 12-08-2020 1:21am

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Forgot Baird. Stick him in there. Could he make his international bow before he appears in the European Cup? It's a real possibility with Cullen opting to keep Fardy on rather than backing the emergent homegrown talent.

Yes because Leinster have a huge issue with bringing young players into the team :-)

Richie_Rich89 · 12-08-2020 1:34am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes because Leinster have a huge issue with bringing young players into the team :-)

They're quite slow to bring new players into the first choice XXIII. It usually takes an injury for someone to get in - even if soon after they look better than the previous incumbent.

I suppose it's the nature of the game in Ireland. Internationals are almost a protected species when it comes to selection. Things tend to be very stable, with little in the way of top players going overseas like you might see in NZ.

Shefwedfan · 12-08-2020 6:36am

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

They're quite slow to bring new players into the first choice XXIII. It usually takes an injury for someone to get in - even if soon after they look better than the previous incumbent.

I suppose it's the nature of the game in Ireland. Internationals are almost a protected species when it comes to selection. Things tend to be very stable, with little in the way of top players going overseas like you might see in NZ.

So now you want to ship off our players oversea?

Former Former · 12-08-2020 8:13am

Ideally we'd learn from the next six games;
- how we're fixed at hooker, this is our biggest problem position IMO
- who will succeed Toner to join Ryan and Henderson in the first-choice 23
- how can we balance the back row
- can Carbery stay fit and is he up to test level
- can Lowe, Baloucoune or AN Other become a test-level winger, and can Stockdale rediscover his 2018 form

Even if we got answers to three of those I'd be happy

crisco10 · 12-08-2020 8:58am

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

They're quite slow to bring new players into the first choice XXIII. It usually takes an injury for someone to get in - even if soon after they look better than the previous incumbent.

Apart from Larmour and Ryan, who both started a Champions Cup final in their debut season. Think it's more if you're good enough you're old enough.

[Deleted User] · 12-08-2020 10:54am

Former Former wrote: »

Ideally we'd learn from the next six games;
- how we're fixed at hooker, this is our biggest problem position IMO
- who will succeed Toner to join Ryan and Henderson in the first-choice 23
- how can we balance the back row
- can Carbery stay fit and is he up to test level
- can Lowe, Baloucoune or AN Other become a test-level winger, and can Stockdale rediscover his 2018 form

Even if we got answers to three of those I'd be happy

If Kelleher isn't the answer at hooker then we're likely waiting on a good academy prospect to put their hand up. I don't think Scannell is going to cut it and whilst I thought Herring went well for us in the six nations he's 30 and has 11 caps so a late breakthrough is unlikely.

There are a handful of impressive young locks coming through and we've the likes of Roux, Klyne to call on if stuck, or have Beirne start in the row.

Back row is an issue. We don't have the power to deal with England / South Africa at the moment and bar Leavy there is no proven back row option to balance out the trio. We do have prospects though so it's important to give good game time and see who shines.

Carbery is 100% test standard but he's made of glass. If he can stay fit for a season he'll be flying it - I just wish he was being coached by Lancaster / Contemponi.

Lowe is going to walk into the team. Farrell was queried on him recently and seemed pretty exuberant. I also think Stockdale has all the attributes that saw him tear onto the scene in 2018, he's a younger player and when the entire team went off the boil it's not a surprise that this impacted him too. I've no doubt we'll see fireworks from him again soon enough. Lowe, Larmour, Stockdale is a fantastic back three.

jacothelad · 12-08-2020 11:19am

Venjur wrote: »

If Kelleher isn't the answer at hooker then we're likely waiting on a good academy prospect to put their hand up. I don't think Scannell is going to cut it and whilst I thought Herring went well for us in the six nations he's 30 and has 11 caps so a late breakthrough is unlikely.

There are a handful of impressive young locks coming through and we've the likes of Roux, Klyne to call on if stuck, or have Beirne start in the row.

Back row is an issue. We don't have the power to deal with England / South Africa at the moment and bar Leavy there is no proven back row option to balance out the trio. We do have prospects though so it's important to give good game time and see who shines.

Carbery is 100% test standard but he's made of glass. If he can stay fit for a season he'll be flying it - I just wish he was being coached by Lancaster / Contemponi.

Lowe is going to walk into the team. Farrell was queried on him recently and seemed pretty exuberant. I also think Stockdale has all the attributes that saw him tear onto the scene in 2018, he's a younger player and when the entire team went off the boil it's not a surprise that this impacted him too. I've no doubt we'll see fireworks from him again soon enough. Lowe, Larmour, Stockdale is a fantastic back three.

Our wing options seem to be pretty good.

Earls may be a veteran but he is still good.

Conway is a top player. I think he is a real all round talent. Stockdale we know about...fingers crossed.

Lowe is a crowd pleaser and a star quality player.

Larmour is an option if needed there.

Then we have Baloucoune who seems to have arrived fully formed and feck me he is quick. I wonder does he have a kicking game. That is important.

Perhaps Aaron Sexton will also make the grade.

It's a pity Lyttle is so injury prone as he is one very gifted player but made of candy floss.

Then there are a host of other very competent guys elsewhere who wouldn't look out of place.
There are also 1 or 2 recent U20 guys who look likely too.

clsmooth · 12-08-2020 11:30am

So how would we like to see a back 3 of Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale line up? What’s the best balance in terms of wing/fullback

aloooof · 12-08-2020 11:46am

clsmooth wrote: »

So how would we like to see a back 3 of Larmour, Lowe and Stockdale line up? What’s the best balance in terms of wing/fullback

Larmour at FB for me, but I also think Conway was possibly our best player during the 6 Nations so I'd be surprised if he was the one to miss out.

Personally, I'd go:
15: Larmour
14: Conway
11: Lowe

23: Stockdale or Earls

ionadnapokot · 12-08-2020 11:52am

Former Former wrote: »

Ideally we'd learn from the next six games;
- how we're fixed at hooker, this is our biggest problem position IMO
Kelleher
- who will succeed Toner to join Ryan and Henderson in the first-choice 23
Baird
- how can we balance the back row
Balance or options isnt prob. Just no world class Power in BR
- can Carbery stay fit and is he up to test level
Unlikely & Yes
- can Lowe, Baloucoune or AN Other become a test-level winger, and can Stockdale rediscover his 2018 form
Lowe is test quality. High hopes for Baloucane.

Even if we got answers to three of those I'd be happy

My take. I feel we have a fair idea where we are player wise.
Hope to see progress in how we attack and a phasing out of the old guard.
- Develop our attack. Particularly kick attack
- Balance Back 3. 15. Larmour, 14. Balaucane & 11 Lowe & Stockdale?
- Sexton & Earls to be phased out sooner rather than later

& Casey at 9. I hope he gets to start a few games.

arsebiscuits1 · 12-08-2020 11:53am

Regarding the hooker options, Kelleher should hopefully take the starting position imminently. Definitely the standout currently. Heffernan, Herring and Scannell all capable players but none will go down as Irish greats.

I have extremely high hopes for Dan Sheehan (not saying he should be involved in the upcoming Irish squad by the way) but he offers a genuine destructive ball carrying ability that the Irish pack has been sorely lacking for a while now.

If we could get a strong carrier like that it opens up the room to get a better balance in the back row I feel also.

Kelleher sets himself apart from the other right now with tremendous athleticism, deceptive pace and is very strong in the carry himself. Could become a crucial player in green in the coming months

stephen_n · 12-08-2020 1:46pm

aloooof wrote: »

Larmour at FB for me, but I also think Conway was possibly our best player during the 6 Nations so I'd be surprised if he was the one to miss out.

Personally, I'd go:
15: Larmour
14: Conway
11: Lowe

23: Stockdale or Earls

Yes Conway has earned the jersey at this stage and if his form of the last 12 months continues, he should be the first choice wing. With Lowe and Stockdale battling for the other wing. Lowe has a bit to prove yet, to show he can step up to international. Though he offers something no other Irish wing does.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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