Citóg

Blowheads · 05-08-2020 11:45pm #1

Evening,
Some issues arising from coaches vs myself.
I am a citóg as is my daughter and I've taught her as I played.
How do citóg's hold the hurl?
I hold it top - right hand, facing left side.
Coaches are saying that it should be facing right...
I think they never met a citóg
Let me know if any citóg on here

KevinK · 06-08-2020 7:08am

Left hand on top surely... not sure what you mean by facing left or right.

Blowheads · 06-08-2020 9:25am

Swinging from left shoulder to right
Right hand on top
The base of the hurl facing left like a 'q'

earlytobed · 06-08-2020 11:03am

Surely it's same as a right hander, strongest hand on top, as Kevin said.
For a lefty, that's left hand on top.
You do see the odd player with hands switched, but the swing can be off, not as powerful.

Blowheads · 06-08-2020 11:10am

Is anyone here actually a citóg?

kkclubhurling · 06-08-2020 11:19am

Citóg is left hand on top, catches with his right eg JJ Delaney, Eoin Larkin, Paudie Maher etc

A right hand on top who strikes of his left as his strong side would not be a Citóg eg John Mullane, Jackie Tyrell

wirelessdude01 · 06-08-2020 11:24am

Dominant hand on top is the proper grip.

Blowheads · 06-08-2020 12:16pm

Ok, now we getting somewhere
So seems she not a citóg but swings like one, maybe called differently where I was raised, unlike ye purists down south

Right hand on top
Swings left shoulder to right
Last point on the pick-up
Heel of the hurl is facing right and toe to the left.
When holding the hurl like this upon picking up the ball the hurl is naturally in the correct striking position

The coaches are asking her to point the hurl in the other way which means when she picks it she has to spin the hurl in her top/back hand before she can strike

Am I right in this setup? That's the way I was taught and no one ever told me I was wrong but now I'm being hauled into the principles office for bad behaviour

big_drive · 06-08-2020 12:24pm

My own opinion would be the coaches way. Will make a difference in terms of speed of strike etc as getting older. Probably be fine either way but could make a difference to be a top level player

wirelessdude01 · 06-08-2020 12:25pm

Blowheads wrote: »

Ok, now we getting somewhere
So seems she not a citóg but swings like one, maybe called differently where I was raised, unlike ye purists down south

Right hand on top
Swings left shoulder to right
Last point on the pick-up
Heel of the hurl is facing right and toe to the left.
When holding the hurl like this upon picking up the ball the hurl is naturally in the correct striking position

The coaches are asking her to point the hurl in the other way which means when she picks it she has to spin the hurl in her top/back hand before she can strike

Am I right in this setup? That's the way I was taught and no one ever told me I was wrong but now I'm being hauled into the principles office for bad behaviour

For pick up toe should be facing out. Facing in means that the ball rolls in.

kkclubhurling · 06-08-2020 12:25pm

Blowheads wrote: »

Ok, now we getting somewhere
So seems she not a citóg but swings like one, maybe called differently where I was raised, unlike ye purists down south

Right hand on top
Swings left shoulder to right
Last point on the pick-up
Heel of the hurl is facing right and toe to the left.
When holding the hurl like this upon picking up the ball the hurl is naturally in the correct striking position

The coaches are asking her to point the hurl in the other way which means when she picks it she has to spin the hurl in her top/back hand before she can strike

Am I right in this setup? That's the way I was taught and no one ever told me I was wrong but now I'm being hauled into the principles office for bad behaviour

Well I understand what you are saying I’d notice in older teen and adult hurlers who rise it as above they for some reason don’t get down as low and are slower on the jab lift, but that’s a totally non scientific observation

Blowheads · 06-08-2020 12:38pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

For pick up toe should be facing out. Facing in means that the ball rolls in.

Toe is facing in towards the left as the right hand is on the neck of the hurl and she's rolling the ball into her left hand, i.e. toe is pointing to her catching hand

wirelessdude01 · 06-08-2020 12:42pm

Blowheads wrote: »

Toe is facing in towards the left as the right hand is on the neck of the hurl and she's rolling the ball into her left hand, i.e. toe is pointing to her catching hand

To me the pick up is wrong and this then means that the hurl has to be readjusted for the strike.

riffmongous · 06-08-2020 12:44pm

I think the whole thing can get confused by how many left handers aren't 100% left handed, usually due to being reared surrounded by right handers. I'm left handed but play most sports the right handed way.. but in hurling it means I hold the ball in my right and the hurl with the left, but I swing off the right side, makes it impossible to get a big swing. It works fine in other sports though, notably hockey and cricket

Mad about baa baas · 06-08-2020 12:58pm

riffmongous wrote: »

I think the whole thing can get confused by how many left handers aren't 100% left handed, usually due to being reared surrounded by right handers. I'm left handed but play most sports the right handed way.. but in hurling it means I hold the ball in my right and the hurl with the left, but I swing off the right side, makes it impossible to get a big swing. It works fine in other sports though, notably hockey and cricket

I'd be very similar..left handed..so left hand on top but strike off right side..being left handed is an advantage I think because the world is so right handed oriented that our weak hand is better than most people's left.. I'm nearly equal both sides striking which helps too..

Mad about baa baas · 06-08-2020 1:00pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

To me the pick up is wrong and this then means that the hurl has to be readjusted for the strike.

Have to agree..to of Hurley should be facing out for the pickup..regardless of whether player is right or left handed or indeed left handed but right sided

DuffleBag · 06-08-2020 1:30pm

Mad about baa baas wrote: »

Have to agree..to of Hurley should be facing out for the pickup..regardless of whether player is right or left handed or indeed left handed but right sided

Agreed. Regardless of left or right. Toe always facing out.

If she's a lefty she should be holding, striking etc like TJ Reid as opposed to Conor Whelan

Big dog daly · 06-08-2020 1:42pm

Blowheads wrote: »

Toe is facing in towards the left as the right hand is on the neck of the hurl and she's rolling the ball into her left hand, i.e. toe is pointing to her catching hand

Toe should be pointing the direction of the dominant hand(which is on the top of the hurley). 99% of inter County hurlers hurl this way. From what your saying she hurls the same as John Mullane, right hand on top, hurling mainly of the left. He always rose the ball with the toe facing out, same goes for Shane dowling

carter10 · 06-08-2020 4:41pm

My son is right handed but holds his left hand on top, it definately slows his pick up speed and he has a wider swing witch he needs more room for. On the plus side he loses nothing in distance and he is very accurate. He's u10 now started at 4 , his first coach spoke to me about it and said hes striking the ball fine that way so he saw no need to change it. Also because his 'stronger' right hand is free he's good at catching. He's as bad as anyone off his weaker side. Finally he doesnt have as much control soloing as he is holding the hurl with the 'weaker' hand. I tried to get him to try the conventioal grip but it was clear he found it really awkward and was frustrating for him so i didn't persist with it.
Although he writes with his right hand when i let him hold my guitar he 'turned it upside down i.e. strummed with left, made chords with right.
He's in good company- Jimmy Hendrix and Noely Crowley!!

arctictree · 07-08-2020 9:50pm

carter10 wrote: »

My son is right handed but holds his left hand on top, it definately slows his pick up speed and he has a wider swing witch he needs more room for. On the plus side he loses nothing in distance and he is very accurate. He's u10 now started at 4 , his first coach spoke to me about it and said hes striking the ball fine that way so he saw no need to change it. Also because his 'stronger' right hand is free he's good at catching. He's as bad as anyone off his weaker side. Finally he doesnt have as much control soloing as he is holding the hurl with the 'weaker' hand. I tried to get him to try the conventioal grip but it was clear he found it really awkward and was frustrating for him so i didn't persist with it.
Although he writes with his right hand when i let him hold my guitar he 'turned it upside down i.e. strummed with left, made chords with right.
He's in good company- Jimmy Hendrix and Noely Crowley!!

You need to get a glove and glue it to the top of the hurl. Then his right hand goes in the glove. A few weeks at this and it will come natural. Much better to do it now rather than when he's an adult. Young right handed kids will naturally try to catch a ball with their right hand, they need to be trained to catch it with the left.

Toe of the hurl should always be pointed away from the body for the pickup.

BTW, my son held the hurl the wrong way. He went to a hurling 'camp' down in Tipp and came back holding it the right way. He's a much better hurler now and it just looks more natural.

BOSTIK · 12-08-2020 10:57am

arctictree wrote: »

You need to get a glove and glue it to the top of the hurl. Then his right hand goes in the glove. A few weeks at this and it will come natural. Much better to do it now rather than when he's an adult. Young right handed kids will naturally try to catch a ball with their right hand, they need to be trained to catch it with the left.

Toe of the hurl should always be pointed away from the body for the pickup.

BTW, my son held the hurl the wrong way. He went to a hurling 'camp' down in Tipp and came back holding it the right way. He's a much better hurler now and it just looks more natural.

Same situation with my son, naturally righthanded but held the hurley left hand on top till he was 7. Even then it was obvious that he'd struggle as he couldn't co-ordinate his hands when attempting to lift the ball.

After a lot of perseverance with him, we managed to get him to change his grip to dominant hand on top. It's made a huge difference to him, he improved dramatically and is completely comfortable now with the orthodox grip.

Some modern day hurling icons such as Ken McGrath and Henry Shefflin also started hurling with the incorrect grip, their juvenile coaches deserve immense credit for helping them improve their skillset.

Swamp_Cat · 12-08-2020 11:42am

As an American raised on baseball and a mostly self taught initially, I automatically went for the weak hand on top. When I'd ask the little ones around the neighborhood where I was staying in KK & even their parents for that matter, what was correct, they would just say, 'it doesn't matter'. Took ages to beat the "baseball grip" out of myself & even then would find I had switched hands w/my weak hand(left) @ the top, furthest from the bas w/out noticing. But once I did my hurling improved very fast. Interesting thread.

Picked up a baseball bat recently when some youth league members began to show up for a game not far from a wall I use. I didn't know what to do with it. funny feeling for an American but I'm just glad nobody suggested I take a swing.

Swamp_Cat · 12-08-2020 11:55am

kkclubhurling wrote: »

Citóg is left hand on top, catches with his right eg JJ Delaney, Eoin Larkin, Paudie Maher etc

A right hand on top who strikes of his left as his strong side would not be a Citóg eg John Mullane, Jackie Tyrell

Helpful. In both these cases the hurler would be a righty. Correct? also, Taggy is another that falls into the 2nd group & not a Citóg. Or do I have it mixed up.

Definitely an advocate of getting kids to use the proper grip. Starting later in life & w/a 'baseball' grip(weak hand on top) I was better able to analyze my performance as I learned & got used to a proper grip. It wasn't until I did that striking off my weak side began to improve and even exceed my 'strong' side in specific situations(low & hard). Love the glued or stapled on glove trick. Too easy to switch w/out realizing. lol ...and here I was thinking this was a yank only problem.

threeball · 12-08-2020 12:24pm

Bad technique and grip is the biggest issue when training kids and the hardest to correct. You can spend an hour showing a kid the correct way only to turn around and they'll go back to what they were at before. Its whatever is working for them just to hit the ball now but will seriously impair them as they advance through the grades. in my opinion its by far the most important thing to have right before they leave the Go Games stage.

arctictree · 12-08-2020 5:19pm

threeball wrote: »

Bad technique and grip is the biggest issue when training kids and the hardest to correct. You can spend an hour showing a kid the correct way only to turn around and they'll go back to what they were at before. Its whatever is working for them just to hit the ball now but will seriously impair them as they advance through the grades. in my opinion its by far the most important thing to have right before they leave the Go Games stage.

I have a few kids like that in the group I train. No matter what I show them, I turn my back and they are back to the wrong way. I have found over the years that it's more about attitude really. No point in getting thick with them. There are exceptions but it's very rare to see 'cack' handed hurlers do well. The weak hand controlling the hurl is what gets them in the end.

threeball · 13-08-2020 9:09am

arctictree wrote: »

I have a few kids like that in the group I train. No matter what I show them, I turn my back and they are back to the wrong way. I have found over the years that it's more about attitude really. No point in getting thick with them. There are exceptions but it's very rare to see 'cack' handed hurlers do well. The weak hand controlling the hurl is what gets them in the end.

I agree. They'll muddle through making up the numbers in the years ahead but they're hamstrung before they start. Very simple things like the grip position when roll or jab lifting and gripping a hurl short when striking are beyond them. They seem to convince themselves that they're doing it well and no amount of advice or coaching will change that. You're lucky you only have a few, it seems to be predominant in groups I'm involved with only a handful doing things correctly.

Uncle Pierre · 13-08-2020 9:52am

Just wondering if any of you ever hit any opposition from parents or others at all, when you're trying to show the kids the right way of doing things?

There's an older man (late 70s) in my club, who's not directly involved with teams any more, but who managed underage teams for decades. Whenever he's in the field during training, or whenever coaching is mentioned at a committee meeting, he'll start giving out about "coaches today are coaching all the natural hurling out of young lads", and how it's "wrong" to try make a young player change to having their right hand on top (if they're right-handed), if their natural preference is for left.

He'll say things like Billy and Tommy played that way, and look how good they were (Billy played mostly in the 70s, and Tommy in the 80s). Also that he never made anybody change their preferred hand, and his teams always did fairly well. You might have to wonder though if they'd have done even better if everybody hurled the right way!

As for parents - I've had it the odd time in the past, but this year I've got an extreme example in an under-7s group. There's a boy who's only been coming a couple of weeks and who I swear swings the hurl like a golf club. Brings it back and up so far that the bás is all the way behind his head at the top his backswing, and he even goes right up on the toes of one foot at the top of his backswing too. The downswing is so big and wild that it's probably even dangerous if there are other kids beside him, for example during the mini matches we play at the end of a session. And because it's a golf swing, he's got his left hand on top of the hurl, even though he's right-handed.

I spent a bit of time with him at the first few sessions he was at, to try encourage him to change. Then last Saturday, I spent a good half hour or more with him, because we had enough other coaches to keep an eye on the rest of the group. The father came over to me at the end, to ask what did I think I was doing, and that he brings his son to the hurling field so he can have fun, and "not to be always picked on and lectured at by people like you". Said at that age, the kids should be allowed do what they like.

We had training again last night, and I asked the boy if he'd been practicing the things I asked him to try. He said "no, Dad says I don't need to".

What do you do in a case like that?

wirelessdude01 · 13-08-2020 9:57am

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

We had training again last night, and I asked the boy if he'd been practicing the things I asked him to try. He said "no, Dad says I don't need to".

What do you do in a case like that?

You can't teach stupid, silly, comes to mind.

Uncle Pierre · 13-08-2020 10:08am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You can't teach stupid, silly, comes to mind.

I suppose that's as good a reply as any!

I just don't know what to do with this one. Don't know anything about the family as they just moved into the area at the tail end of last year. It just so happens that they come from Dublin, but I don't want anybody to interpret this as an anti-Dub comment.

I asked the boy at one stage if he'd played hurling before, and he said he'd played last year, but he didn't know the name of the club. He also said he prefers football, but we're a 99% hurling club. In ten or twelve sessions for the young lads since we started back in early July, I think we've only taken out the footballs once, and that was only for about 15 minutes.

I reckon the family is definitely not from a hurling background, and probably not from a GAA background at all. And the way things are, I reckon chances are slim that this lad will keep coming in the long term. I just don't like the idea of somebody like his father going away and grumbling to all who'll listen about "bloody GAA, won't let kids just have fun, and don't want anybody from outside the parish coming in". And that last bit is particularly untrue, as we've also got two Chinese boys, a lad from Poland, and another from Pakistan in the same group, and they're all really enthusiastic and quick to learn.

Then again, their parents wouldn't have any preconceived notions about GAA. And like you say, maybe you just can't teach stupid!

threeball · 13-08-2020 11:06am

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Just wondering if any of you ever hit any opposition from parents or others at all, when you're trying to show the kids the right way of doing things?

There's an older man (late 70s) in my club, who's not directly involved with teams any more, but who managed underage teams for decades. Whenever he's in the field during training, or whenever coaching is mentioned at a committee meeting, he'll start giving out about "coaches today are coaching all the natural hurling out of young lads", and how it's "wrong" to try make a young player change to having their right hand on top (if they're right-handed), if their natural preference is for left.

He'll say things like Billy and Tommy played that way, and look how good they were (Billy played mostly in the 70s, and Tommy in the 80s). Also that he never made anybody change their preferred hand, and his teams always did fairly well. You might have to wonder though if they'd have done even better if everybody hurled the right way!

As for parents - I've had it the odd time in the past, but this year I've got an extreme example in an under-7s group. There's a boy who's only been coming a couple of weeks and who I swear swings the hurl like a golf club. Brings it back and up so far that the bás is all the way behind his head at the top his backswing, and he even goes right up on the toes of one foot at the top of his backswing too. The downswing is so big and wild that it's probably even dangerous if there are other kids beside him, for example during the mini matches we play at the end of a session. And because it's a golf swing, he's got his left hand on top of the hurl, even though he's right-handed.

I spent a bit of time with him at the first few sessions he was at, to try encourage him to change. Then last Saturday, I spent a good half hour or more with him, because we had enough other coaches to keep an eye on the rest of the group. The father came over to me at the end, to ask what did I think I was doing, and that he brings his son to the hurling field so he can have fun, and "not to be always picked on and lectured at by people like you". Said at that age, the kids should be allowed do what they like.

We had training again last night, and I asked the boy if he'd been practicing the things I asked him to try. He said "no, Dad says I don't need to".

What do you do in a case like that?

Same lad will be back to you in 4 or 5yrs bitching about why his young lad isn't on the first team. I'd say that to him too.

arctictree · 13-08-2020 6:47pm

To be honest, the Father doesn't have a clue. He doesnt understand that most good hurlers are like that because they practice every day doing the same thing 100 times over. It's not like swimming or maybe Tennis where you have your coaching sessions and that's it. I can see in my own group, lads coming back week after week with no improvement and they are the lads that aren't practising or taking instruction. Same lads then go off in a huff when they aren't picked for games. It's all about attitude.

Citóg

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