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Death of 25-year-old Peggy McCarthy of Listowel, 1946

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    #92
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,267 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    BBFAN wrote: »
    Did you listen to the documentary?

    She died because of the Catholic Church? And it was ordinary PEOPLE who stood up to them.

    Listen and then restate all your bull****.

    Listen while the clergy carried out the misdeeds it's entirely misdirected to believe that they weren't empowered to do so by the majority of people who kowtowed to them, who doffed their caps, bended their knees and whatever else to show absolute deference... That includes politicians of the time as well.

    I don't think it's fair to look back at those people and blame them really.. Ireland was in post colonial mode where the ending of centuries of cap doffing and deference to the local Lord's and ladies had left a vacuum and the Catholic Church was only more than willing to fill the void.

    Ultimately many people just slipped right back into old habits. Many others didn't.

    It's sad really. Things could have been so different had we politicians not so eager to encourage Rome Rule.

    One can only hope that it's behind us once and for all.

    One only has to consider the recent referenda to see that there are still plenty curtain twitching tut tutters on hand more than willing to offer their services to mother church.


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    #93
    ToddyDoody
    Registered Users Posts: 4,421 ✭✭✭ToddyDoody


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Who are the pariahs of Irish society in 2018, and who are the thugs and bullies of Irish society in 2018? Or will we only be able to answer that in 70 years time?

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. Society seems to work by 'agreeing' a set of values and allocating status based on proximity or distance from these values. The only difference today would be what these values are - the way it works is still the same.


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    #94
    sk8erboii
    Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    ToddyDoody wrote: »
    The more things change, the more they stay the same. Society seems to work by 'agreeing' a set of values and allocating status based on proximity or distance from these values. The only difference today would be what these values are - the way it works is still the same.

    Whoa. So its ultimately a bad thing that people are no longer repressed?


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    #95
    ToddyDoody
    Registered Users Posts: 4,421 ✭✭✭ToddyDoody


    sk8erboii wrote: »
    Whoa. So its ultimately a bad thing that people are no longer repressed?

    No, just it's not like we live in some kind of a wonderful utopia in this day and age and in an attempt to answer the question as to who the scapegoats of today are.


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    #96
    sk8erboii
    Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    ToddyDoody wrote: »
    No, just it's not like we live in some kind of a wonderful utopia in this day and age and in an attempt to answer the question as to who the scapegoats of today are.

    Whoa. So dismantling a repressive institution doesnt help?


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    #97
    ToddyDoody
    Registered Users Posts: 4,421 ✭✭✭ToddyDoody


    sk8erboii wrote: »
    Whoa. So dismantling a repressive institution doesnt help?

    "Who are the pariahs of Irish society in 2018, and who are the thugs and bullies of Irish society in 2018? Or will we only be able to answer that in 70 years time?"


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    #98
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Lads it was 1946, what's the point in going over it? Yes it was terrible and the abusive treatment of unmarried mothers continued long after but we've changed completely. The church as moral guardian is dead, it's completely irrelevant. Unmarried parents are no longer shunned. We have made a lot of progress and have a lot to be optimistic about.


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    #99
    sk8erboii
    Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    ToddyDoody wrote: »
    "Who are the pariahs of Irish society in 2018, and who are the thugs and bullies of Irish society in 2018? Or will we only be able to answer that in 70 years time?"

    Catholic church: Turns ireland into a repressed backwards state

    *gets dismantled*

    ‘Wtf stop oppressing me!’


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    #100
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    gozunda wrote: »
    Unfortunately it's all true. If you choose to believe otherwise you are playing ostrich...

    Well for a start, tax was not levied on people to pay for the RCC. That is just a falsehood.


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    #101
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    gozunda wrote: »
    Your comment makes no sense and you have failed to make any refutation of anything of what I posted whatsoever.

    Emoticons dont count as an argument btw

    There is no 'official religion' in Ireland like you said, thus you do not have a clue.:cool:


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    #102
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    sdanseo wrote: »
    Religions in general should just be banned.

    Freedom of expression by all means. Freedom to preach fairy tales which are utterly baseless by any competent scientific measure, and which are known to cause division and hate crime through their followers' devotion, really has to be questioned.

    Ah, here come the crazies....


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    #103
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    markodaly wrote: »
    Well for a start, tax was not levied on people to pay for the RCC. That is just a falsehood.

    The 'tax' (For that is what it was) I refer to was the weekly mass 'collection' with those who did not contribute being named and damned from the alter. The 'parish dues' were also levied yearly off every parishioner . Then on top of all that burials, marriages and christenings all involved required donations at the demand of the clergy. If you were in any way knowledgeable about what the power that the RCC had you would know most of that or maybe you would like to persuade others that such things never happened and are 'falsehoods (sic)
    markodaly wrote: »
    There is no 'official religion' in Ireland like you said, thus you do not have a clue.:cool:

    At this point I see your comments are deliberatly obtuse and utterly clueless. Who said anything of 'official religion'. In the Irish State - who owned and ran the bulk of the schools? Who owned and ran the majority of the hospitals? Who ran the infamous mother and baby homes - all state funded and backed? The RCC did that's who. Who controlled everything including controlling the provision of healthcare, the banning of contraception yada yada yada? The RCC church did. Or are you going to continue to pretend that it's all a big lie to suit some deranged narrative where everything else was to blame except the all pervasive power of the majority state backed religion.


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    #104
    whitey1
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭whitey1


    Marley and Marley wrote: »
    Note that one of the contributors pointed out that people still bowed down for the priest in Listowel in the 1950's after the incident.Why the **** would you do that having known what the church did in your own town to a young woman.

    People knew that this sort of horrible stuff went on all over the country and yet the still went back to mass, they still went along with the churches teachings, still voted for politicians who allowed the church to exert their corrosive influence on the country.

    Again I state the church were wrong but so many people allowed them to do stuff that was wrong, The hospitals were funded by the state and yet the allowed these rules to be enforced by the church who were running them.

    The public sadly allowed the church to have such a negative influence on society.

    Dont know how old you are, but up until the early 90s a large percentage of Irish country people thought that they would rot in hell for all eternity if they got on the wrong side of a priest


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    #105
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    gozunda wrote: »
    The 'tax' (For that is what it was) I refer to was the weekly mass 'collection' with those who did not contribute being named and damned from the alter. The 'parish dues' were also levied yearly off every parishioner . Then on top of all that burials, marriages and christenings all involved required donations at the demand of the clergy. If you were in any way knowledgeable about what the power that the RCC had you would know most of that or maybe you would like to persuade others that such things never happened and are 'falsehoods (sic)



    At this point I see your comments are deliberatly obtuse and utterly clueless. Who said anything of 'official religion'. In the Irish State - who owned and ran the bulk of the schools? Who owned and ran the majority of the hospitals? Who ran the infamous mother and baby homes - all state funded and backed? The RCC did that's who. Who controlled everything including controlling the provision of healthcare, the banning of contraception yada yada yada? The RCC church did. Or are you going to continue to pretend that it's all a big lie to suit some deranged narrative where everything else was to blame except the all pervasive power of the majority state backed religion.

    and each and every one of the people doing all this were pure Irish people, attacking their own. Not a foreign force coming in; Irish folk ..

    And a small valid point; they also set up education and health care where there had been none before and if the nuns were still around the hospitals would still be clean and well run not like the chaos we have now.


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    #106
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    whitey1 wrote: »
    Dont know how old you are, but up until the early 90s a large percentage of Irish country people thought that they would rot in hell for all eternity if they got on the wrong side of a priest

    That is not so. They conformed as it was easier for them to do that. They risked losing their jobs etc if they stood up to a priest.


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    #107
    whitey1
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭whitey1


    Graces7 wrote: »
    That is not so. They conformed as it was easier for them to do that. They risked losing their jobs etc if they stood up to a priest.



    I said country people.....they did not have jobs to worry about.


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    #108
    fran38
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭fran38


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Everyone looks back
    First it was the English’s fault
    We got rid of them
    Then it was the church’s fault for everything
    Kind of got rid of them

    Problem is the whole place is still a disaster. we are screwing every single person over and over again, health system is a disaster but you have our leader posting about sending 100 million to other countries.....what do the Irish people do? Nothing

    Who will we blame in a few years?

    Blame the church all you want but every single Irish person knew exactly what was going on and allowed it...still do today


    Amen to that, excellent post


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    #109
    fran38
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭fran38


    Yes the RCC over the last 100 years or so has degenerated into something akin to evil. There are no doubts about that.
    However, the church has existed in Ireland for 1600 years. In that time it has educated the poorest of the poor, instilled a sense of morals and what is right in people. It has added to Irish culture and history. I'm not going to condemn a religion for the sins in its modern guise but I will stand up for it when you consider how the RCC brought civilization to a backward and inwardly looking Ireland in the middle ages.
    Yes it has done evil things but it was in connivance with the arm of the state and the cowardice of the people.
    One last point. Continue with your hatred against the RCC (and all religion as far as I can see) and take your eyes off the principal reason we are in a mess in Ireland. And that is how the state treats the people and wants us to turn on each other and institutions.


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    #110
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Graces7 wrote: »
    and each and every one of the people doing all this were pure Irish people, attacking their own. Not a foreign force coming in; Irish folk ..

    And a small valid point; they also set up education and health care where there had been none before and if the nuns were still around the hospitals would still be clean and well run not like the chaos we have now.

    Fair enough. To the first point - I would use the phrase that 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. As in Stalinist Russia those who had power used it to dominate and subjugate others. That the mass of the people laid down and took it was probably at least partially due to the a long history as a subjected people. But more of that later.

    As to the second point and in fairness the British attempted to bring a national style education without denomination. This was protested violently by the power of a rising rcc and even other church groups. Same with the monopoly of hospitals dominated by the clergy. That they acquiesced to these private and partisian bodies is shamefully now a part of our history.


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    #111
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    oceanman wrote: »
    what happened the girl was terrible but its a bit late being horrified about something that happened over 75 years ago!....

    No, never, its never too late to be disgusted about inhumane treatment of another.

    Should we forget the holocaust?

    Lest we forget - this barbarity should never be allowed to be forgotten or IMO, forgiven


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    #112
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    DS86DS wrote: »
    That's your opinion, I'm sure many will disagree. We've had the Church in Ireland for 1,600 years and its done a lot of good. We shouldn't judge an organisation that large and historically entrenched over an instant regarding the refusal of a woman into a RCC run hospital because she couldn't keep her legs closed.

    That comment is disgusting - it takes two to tango - she didn't get pregnant by herself, but typical catholic, blame the woman.

    But what should we judge the church on - the magdeline laundries, the false birth certificates of children sold to america? the 800 babies thrown in a septic tank in Tuam? the endemic child sex abuse scandal that was covered up and hidden for years by the so called moral Clergy?

    They make me sick, shame on them all.


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    #113
    oceanman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭oceanman


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »
    No, never, its never too late to be disgusted about inhumane treatment of another.

    Should we forget the holocaust?

    Lest we forget - this barbarity should never be allowed to be forgotten or IMO, forgiven
    in that case why not be outraged and disgusted by the rape and murder carried out by the Vikings when they landed here? we cant go carrying anger about stuff that happened in the past around with us...its pointless, the past is the past. what we should do is try to make sure the same dosent happen in the future.


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    #114
    sk8erboii
    Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    oceanman wrote: »
    what we should do is try to make sure the same dosent happen in the future.

    Whoa. Like abolishing the church?


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    #115
    oceanman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭oceanman


    sk8erboii wrote: »
    Whoa. Like abolishing the church?
    if only it were that simple …..


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    #116
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Graces7 wrote: »
    and each and every one of the people doing all this were pure Irish people, attacking their own. Not a foreign force coming in; Irish folk ..

    And a small valid point; they also set up education and health care where there had been none before and if the nuns were still around the hospitals would still be clean and well run not like the chaos we have now.

    Yeah wouldn't it be great to have state-funded hospitals refusing medical care to a young woman on the orders of a nun.


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    #117
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,385 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    This documentary was on over the summer, that’s when I heard it. Listened to it a few times since and it is a superb piece of storytelling and an unbelievably tragic story, hard to get your head around these days that a mother would be left to die like that. My own parents were born only a few years after Peggy’s child Breda


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    #118
    sk8erboii
    Site Banned Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭sk8erboii


    oceanman wrote: »
    if only it were that simple …..

    Whoa. Like repealing backwards laws and instilling progressive values?


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    #119
    oceanman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭oceanman


    sk8erboii wrote: »
    Whoa. Like repealing backwards laws and instilling progressive values?
    something like that, but don't expect it to happen overnight..


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    #120
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,970 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    markodaly wrote: »
    There is no 'official religion' in Ireland like you said, thus you do not have a clue.:cool:


    ..since 1973. Before that, the RCC was given a "special position" in the constitution.


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    #121
    Dr_serious2
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭Dr_serious2


    Disgraceful treatment of a vulnerable young woman, the lack of humanity amongst Christian people would be shocking if we hadnt heard it so many times before.

    But don't be so naive to think that Irish society today is some kind of paradise where we act in the best interests of each other.

    How many of the following do you trust?

    Banks
    Charities
    Media
    The church
    Gardai
    Politicians

    My answer? 0.


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