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Marathon Improvers Thread.

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  • #962
    healy1835
    Registered Users Posts: 2,181 ✭✭✭healy1835


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Here’s one of mine if any use:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105132273&postcount=2701

    A masterpiece of a report :)


  • #963
    coogy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭coogy


    The Davestator wrote: »
    I'd love to read some of those reports, but not sure how to find them - any in particular to read for a goal sub 3:30? Thanks

    Sorry, I made that sound like you could search for race reports according to category. Its just that I've read through so many, I've gotten to know which of them achieved finish times that would be relevant to me. :)


  • #964
    Huzzah!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭Huzzah!


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Here’s one of mine if any use:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105132273&postcount=2701
    healy1835 wrote: »
    A masterpiece of a report :)

    One I referred to many times during my own Hanson cycle and that I've now posted on the Novices thread for them to have a read of.


  • #965
    OOnegative
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057164038&page=125

    My first marathon report under my previous guise.


  • #966
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭Rossi7


    Treviso wrote: »
    Thought I would throw my name on here too. Even though I'm part of the novice group for this years boards DCM, I'm aiming for 3.30 too. Although given my unproven endurance, I'd be happy as well if I suffered along & finish under 3.40.

    I'm following the 18 week P&D advanced marathon plan which peaks at 57 miles and I'm about 5 weeks in. Enjoying the miles & the tough MPR runs. Feel a lot stronger since I started it.

    Will have a read through this thread to gain some insight into other peoples experiences. My wife has previously ran 3.20 in DCM and is giving me loads of help with my running but the more advice the better.

    My PBs so far are
    5k: 20.48
    10 mile: 74.31
    Half: 1.39.45
    25k: 2hrs 5mins
    All got in 2019

    Running Charleville half before DCM so hoping that will tell if the 3.30 is realistic or not
    All my times were quicker than your current PB's before I took on DCM, granted I missed 4-6 weeks being injured and on holidays in the lead up to the marathon. I don't want to burst your bubble but you need to respect the distance because I can assure you it won't respect you. I finished 4.05 was hoping under 4 even though my times said I could run a 3.40


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  • #967
    Treviso
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Treviso


    Rossi7 wrote: »
    All my times were quicker than your current PB's before I took on DCM, granted I missed 4-6 weeks being injured and on holidays in the lead up to the marathon. I don't want to burst your bubble but you need to respect the distance because I can assure you it won't respect you. I finished 4.05 was hoping under 4 even though my times said I could run a 3.40

    Yep I get it, I've read many a DCM race report where things goes downhill for many during the later miles. Many of those runners had better times than me too. All I can do is follow my plan as best as I can and see what happens on the day.

    Would being injured for 4-6 weeks of a 12 week plan not be a massive reason for not reaching your target?


  • #968
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Treviso wrote: »
    Yep I get it, I've read many a DCM race report where things goes downhill for many during the later miles. Many of those runners had better times than me too. All I can do is follow my plan as best as I can and see what happens on the day.

    Would being injured for 4-6 weeks of a 12 week plan not be a massive reason for not reaching your target?

    Yes, of course it would. But so could many other things. The marathon is different to shorter races because for most non elites it involves running for longer than our glycogen stores can fuel. Therefore we need specific endurance adaptations as well as a good fuelling strategy to pull it off. An awful lot of runners don’t have the proper adaptation, which requires a considerable running base at a range of paces sufficient to deliver the endurance and speed necessary for your target. The most important ingredient of a good ‘improver’ marathon IMO is that base of appropriately paced mileage, usually amassed over several years. Any reasonable marathon plan will then bring you through. No matter how well you train, you will still fade in the final quarter - the question is how much, and how will you handle it?

    Best of luck with it this year.


  • #969
    coogy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭coogy


    Murph_D wrote: »
    No matter how well you train, you will still fade in the final quarter - the question is how much, and how will you handle it?

    "Digging deep" is something I'm gradually getting used to and becoming more successful at, provided the previous miles have been well managed. I'm guessing this is where race experience (for shorter distances) comes in useful when faced with the final quarter of the marathon.


  • #970
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    For non elite runners its all about weekly mileage. The more the better, After 3 failed marathons where I could not run it all I got the advice my peak of 60km a week was not enough to get me to run it all ( although some getaway with that amount). I upped to peak at 90 km in training and then was able to run one all.

    Studies have shown the correlation between marathon times and weekly millage is irrefutable.

    In all 3 marathons where I could only get to c.30km before I had to start walking, my PB marathon time was 3.55. when I upped the weekly millage I ran a 3.01 in 2017.


  • #971
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    coogy wrote: »
    "Digging deep" is something I'm gradually getting used to and becoming more successful at, provided the previous miles have been well managed. I'm guessing this is where race experience (for shorter distances) comes in useful when faced with the final quarter of the marathon.

    It's an interesting question - I'd imagine shorter race experience certainly helps, but there's only so far you can 'dig' if the reserves aren't actually there, which is where the training (and for the marathon, pre-race nutrition and in-race fuelling strategy) comes into play. Not saying it's rocket science, but getting the basics right and controlling the controllable has a lot to do with it. Providing the reserves are there, getting through the hurt - turning off the Central Governor - is certainly something that can be improved upon with practice.


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  • #972
    Younganne
    Registered Users Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭Younganne


    Murph_D wrote: »
    It's an interesting question - I'd imagine shorter race experience certainly helps, but there's only so far you can 'dig' if the reserves aren't actually there, which is where the training (and for the marathon, pre-race nutrition and in-race
    fuelling strategy) comes into play. Not saying it's rocket science, but getting the basics right and controlling the controllable has a lot to do with it. Providing the reserves are there, getting through the hurt - turning off the Central Governor - is certainly something that can be improved upon with practice.

    That's a fantastic read on the Central Governor which also has links to other great articles.

    Thanks for sharing Denis


  • #973
    Comic Book Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Comic Book Guy


    Hi guys. I'm 5 weeks into the P&D 18 week marathon plan. I just have a quick question or looking for feedback from people who have previously used the plan.
    There are a couple of long weekend runs left in the plan that involve 12 and 14 miles done at marathon pace. Are these distances and paces in a long run a bit on the excessive side? I'm just asking from the point of view of accumulated tiredness and recovery.

    Thanks


  • #974
    Unknownability
    Registered Users Posts: 915 ✭✭✭Unknownability


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    For non elite runners its all about weekly mileage. The more the better, After 3 failed marathons where I could not run it all I got the advice my peak of 60km a week was not enough to get me to run it all ( although some getaway with that amount). I upped to peak at 90 km in training and then was able to run one all.

    Studies have shown the correlation between marathon times and weekly millage is irrefutable.

    In all 3 marathons where I could only get to c.30km before I had to start walking, my PB marathon time was 3.55. when I upped the weekly millage I ran a 3.01 in 2017.

    That's incredible did you go from 355 to 301 in the space of one marathon¿


  • #975
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Unknownability wrote: »
    That's incredible did you go from 355 to 301 in the space of one marathon¿

    Have only done Dublin. 3.55 was my PB before 3.01. But the previous marathon had been 4.35 before the 3.01.

    Given my 10k time a 3hr marathon seemed possible but on the day the wheels kept coming off around 30k mark. The last one I thought If i ran much slower I would be able to run one all but again after running 30km at much slower pace than I should, the wheels came off and came in at 4.35.

    I learned it was not to do with my pace but that my legs were not strong enough to run the marathon. I was not doing enough weekly millage I had to up the weekly millage to be able run one all.

    Not in a club and my intuition was that I should always train on fresh legs and I never ran on consecutive days and this was a big mistake. One of the best training you can do for the marathon is to run on already tired legs from a previous days run. This gets the strength into the legs that you need to be able to run a marathon.

    Those days you go out and your legs feel wrecked from the previous weeks running, a first time marathon trainer might think there is noway they can run a marathon but those days are the best training days you can do for the marathon. They are the ones where you are getting strength into your legs. your body recognize repetition. If you are using your legs a lot more your body recognize this and will make them stronger to cater for the extra stress you are putting the under. If you get to this state its a sign that training is going very well.


  • #976
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    Comic Book Guy wrote: »
    Hi guys. I'm 5 weeks into the P&D 18 week marathon plan. I just have a quick question or looking for feedback from people who have previously used the plan.
    There are a couple of long weekend runs left in the plan that involve 12 and 14 miles done at marathon pace. Are these distances and paces in a long run a bit on the excessive side? I'm just asking from the point of view of accumulated tiredness and recovery.

    Thanks

    Just go for it. If you try and it works out then you will get a confidance boost. It will give you belief for the big day, because you will doubt that you can sustain it for 26.2.

    If you can't hit the splits then re adjust your target. Trust the plan if your meeting your targets.

    Good luck.


  • #977
    coogy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭coogy


    Younganne wrote: »
    That's a fantastic read on the Central Governor which also has links to other great articles.

    Thanks for sharing Denis



    Yes, only just got round to reading that article now, very interesting read!! Thanks D!


  • #978
    Bluesquare
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭Bluesquare


    coogy wrote: »
    Yes, only just got round to reading that article now, very interesting read!! Thanks D!

    Agreed - great article thanks .Sent to my training group in club - lots of great discussions after


  • #979
    coogy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭coogy


    So, now the Waves have been released, how's everyone feeling about their goal times?

    I'm in Wave 2 but will wait until a bit closer to DCM before deciding on a strategy. Heading out somewhere between the 3:30 and 3:40 pacers might be he way to go.


  • #980
    Treviso
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Treviso


    I got Wave 1 even though I put 3.30 down as my goal time. I'll drop back to wave 2 and go with the 3.30 pacers. I'm not disciplined enough to pace myself for the whole thing.

    Will leave them go ahead for the 1st 7 miles and try to reel them back slowly. No idea how it will go seeing as it's my first marathon but training is going well so far. Charleville at the weekend will be a good yardstick.

    Still unsure as to whether I'll be able to get that time as I'll be going into the unknown and not sure if the endurance is strong enough for the full 26.2 at that pace


  • #981
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭Rossi7


    Same boat as yourself Treviso, Wave 1. I'll hang at the back of it and head out and pace myself rather than drop down a wave and rely on the Pacers


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  • #982
    Fiftyplus
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Fiftyplus


    Same as you Treviso. 3.30 aim but put in Wave 1. Same last year but I skipped the barrier and went into the pen for Wave 2 and ran with 3.30 pacers. Hopefully do the same again.


  • #983
    Sheep1978
    Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭Sheep1978


    Fiftyplus wrote: »
    Same as you Treviso. 3.30 aim but put in Wave 1. Same last year but I skipped the barrier and went into the pen for Wave 2 and ran with 3.30 pacers. Hopefully do the same again.

    you don;t need to skip any barriers. You can drop down waves no problem


  • #984
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,413 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Rossi7 wrote: »
    Same boat as yourself Treviso, Wave 1. I'll hang at the back of it and head out and pace myself rather than drop down a wave and rely on the Pacers

    The 3:30 pacers will certainly run an even pace and certainly be as close to 3:30 as you would hope. DCM pacer quality is on a different plane compared to other races. Nothing wrong with pacing yourself of course - many of us prefer that - but bear in mind. A good pace team takes a lot of the anxiety out of the equation if you’re going for a time and are prepared to trust.


  • #985
    Rossi7
    Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭Rossi7


    Murph_D wrote: »
    Rossi7 wrote: »
    Same boat as yourself Treviso, Wave 1. I'll hang at the back of it and head out and pace myself rather than drop down a wave and rely on the Pacers

    The 3:30 pacers will certainly run an even pace and certainly be as close to 3:30 as you would hope. DCM pacer quality is on a different plane compared to other races. Nothing wrong with pacing yourself of course - many of us prefer that - but bear in mind. A good pace team takes a lot of the anxiety out of the equation if you’re going for a time and are prepared to trust.
    Oh I'm not for one minute doubting the ability of the pacers, more my ability. If the wheels come off for myself on the day I know it was my own doing.


  • #986
    Slow_Runner
    Registered Users Posts: 599 ✭✭✭Slow_Runner


    Rossi7 wrote: »
    Murph_D wrote: »
    Rossi7 wrote: »
    Same boat as yourself Treviso, Wave 1. I'll hang at the back of it and head out and pace myself rather than drop down a wave and rely on the Pacers

    The 3:30 pacers will certainly run an even pace and certainly be as close to 3:30 as you would hope. DCM pacer quality is on a different plane compared to other races. Nothing wrong with pacing yourself of course - many of us prefer that - but bear in mind. A good pace team takes a lot of the anxiety out of the equation if you’re going for a time and are prepared to trust.
    Oh I'm not for one minute doubting the ability of the pacers, more my ability. If the wheels come off for myself on the day I know it was my own doing.
    I find the danger with pacers is you try to stick with them from the start and keep pace when your body is not able thus tiring you out. During the marathon you will have ups and downs and your pace should reflect this, somewhere like Dublin with a hilly(ish) first half you need to take it easy for the 1st 12-14 miles. Best bet is to use them as a visual guide to where the pace is at, better to be 1-2 minutes behind at the halfway point and slowly try to reel them in for the 2nd half - good to have a target!


  • #987
    boydkev
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭boydkev


    Slow_Runner wrote: »
    I find the danger with pacers is you try to stick with them from the start and keep pace when your body is not able thus tiring you out. During the marathon you will have ups and downs and your pace should reflect this, somewhere like Dublin with a hilly(ish) first half you need to take it easy for the 1st 12-14 miles. Best bet is to use them as a visual guide to where the pace is at, better to be 1-2 minutes behind at the halfway point and slowly try to reel them in for the 2nd half - good to have a target!

    I was thinking of doing this and start behind the pacers and just tail them especially when the group running with them will be very big for the first half.


  • #988
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,192 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    In taper with the meno plan and in wave 2 for DCM. Hoping for 3:45, starting with the 3:50 pacers. My question is to what extent can you 'call upon' MP you've done in training in the race, or more precisely, towards the end stage of the race? Keeping in mind fatigue, trying to sensible, respecting the distance, etc. Does it seem feasible to pick it up, say after mile 20/21 or so? I don't mean going crazy or beyond MP. Never felt I've fully emptied the tank, so far. Not sure where the danger zone is...ish.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #989
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    In taper with the meno plan and in wave 2 for DCM. Hoping for 3:45, starting with the 3:50 pacers. My question is to what extent can you 'call upon' MP you've done in training in the race, or more precisely, towards the end stage of the race? Keeping in mind fatigue, trying to sensible, respecting the distance, etc. Does it seem feasible to pick it up, say after mile 20/21 or so? I don't mean going crazy or beyond MP. Never felt I've fully emptied the tank, so far. Not sure where the danger zone is...ish.

    To an extent you have to listen to your body. It'll be sending signals. Listen to them. It is definitely possible to pick it up at miles 21/22. My fastest miles last year were after mile 20. Trust your training.

    I'd strongly agree with a point made above about using pace group as a target. I didn't see the pace group I was intending to finish near until about mile 15 when you turn left off Fortfield Road towards Terenure College. They were at the end of the long straight entering Terenure Village. From there to the end they were my focus...just to gradually reel them in without being reckless.


  • #990
    coogy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭coogy


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    To an extent you have to listen to your body. It'll be sending signals. Listen to them. It is definitely possible to pick it up at miles 21/22. My fastest miles last year were after mile 20. Trust your training.

    I'd strongly agree with a point made above about using pace group as a target. I didn't see the pace group I was intending to finish near until about mile 15 when you turn left off Fortfield Road towards Terenure College. They were at the end of the long straight entering Terenure Village. From there to the end they were my focus...just to gradually reel them in without being reckless.


    S, which pace group are you referring to, was it the 3:20 group?


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  • #991
    Hedgehoggy
    Registered Users Posts: 187 ✭✭Hedgehoggy


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    In taper with the meno plan and in wave 2 for DCM. Hoping for 3:45, starting with the 3:50 pacers. My question is to what extent can you 'call upon' MP you've done in training in the race, or more precisely, towards the end stage of the race? Keeping in mind fatigue, trying to sensible, respecting the distance, etc. Does it seem feasible to pick it up, say after mile 20/21 or so? I don't mean going crazy or beyond MP. Never felt I've fully emptied the tank, so far. Not sure where the danger zone is...ish.

    [QUOTE=To an extent you have to listen to your body. It'll be sending signals. Listen to them. It is definitely possible to pick it up at miles 21/22. My fastest miles last year were after mile 20. Trust your training.

    I'd strongly agree with a point made above about using pace group as a target. I didn't see the pace group I was intending to finish near until about mile 15 when you turn left off Fortfield Road towards Terenure College. They were at the end of the long straight entering Terenure Village. From there to the end they were my focus...just to gradually reel them in without being reckless.[/QUOTE]


    Hoping for something similar myself - starting ahead of 3.40 pace group with the aim of pushing on later. Thinking 8.15 pace for the first 10k and then upping it gradually after 8 miles - 18m mile. After that it'll just depend on what's in the tank I suppose. Reaching 3.30 will be a major challenge - part of me is wondering if I should throw caution to the wind and put it on the line - If I blow up I blow up - but at least I'll have given it a shot!


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