Ridiculous short interval at traffic lights

magicbastarder · 06-07-2020 9:19pm

indeed, they'd be replacing car lanes with whitewater streams rather than cycle lanes.

AlekSmart · 06-07-2020 10:03pm

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

To me it llooks like DCC are deliberately slowing an already painfully slow public transport system for very little gain.

There are far more roads without bus lanes than those with bus lanes in Dublin so the traffic light sequence has a much bigger impact on buses than cars illegally using bus lanes. Plus I'd be interested in seeing stats on illegal bus lane use and the impact of it in Dublin, aside from triggering indiviuals, but I'm nothing really seeing the relevance of it in this conversation anyway.

The DCC/NTA post Covid-19 document is available here...

http://www.dublincity.ie/covidmobilityprogramme

The main thrust is to Increase cycling by 200% and walking by 100%.

Interestingly the Council's committment to Bus Service Prioritization is somewhat vague and subject to that wonderful caveat,so often used by reluctant authorities...."Insofar as practicable"...;)

https://www.dublincity.ie/node/19521

Oh well,at least we get a specific mention of Winetavern Street.

West Access Radial Route
This route will allow buses coming from the Cork Street and High Street directions to use the river crossing at O’Donovan Rossa Bridge via Winetavern Street.
These bus routes, along the western alignment will be facilitated by a new contra-flow bus lane on Winetavern Street as well as measures on other streets.

A jolly jape indeed !

magicbastarder · 07-07-2020 8:54pm

was waiting at lights - northbound at the main junction in the middle of ballymun - about an hour ago, first in the queue. i know the light sequence there, so was moving as soon as they went green - and they turned amber when i was still about two car lengths from the light on the other side of the junction. shortest sequence i've seen yet.

Truthvader · 09-07-2020 10:11am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

No according to the CSO not me .

If memory serves the following have been built in the last 30 years
M50 and all the motorways that feed into it
M50 and all the motorways that feed into it upgrade
1000's of KM's roads around housing estates
Underground parking at most new builds in town
Jervis St car park
1000's of KM's of road widening and slip corners

Versus
Several 100 km of bus lanes that cars constantly abuse
10's of km for luas
Several 100 km of cycle lanes that cars constantly abuse

Your basically calling for Dublin to be bulldozed so

What the hell is the spiteful bike crowd ?

Not 'it won't work' , it hasn't worked.

You mean this https://www.metrolink.ie/#/home

The purpose of this thread is DCC's action on traffic lights, I am highlighting that this part of a long ongoing campaign to make driving unpleasant and that the bicycle crowd support this campaign

All the roads to Cork Galway Limerick Belfast have been vastly improved plus the M 50 etc etc. Thank God. No charge is paid by me so happily as road toll

DCC have repeatedly taken actions to make things **** for drivers with no other agenda. If you are a bicycle fan I can fully understand why a bicycle lane is a good idea and why you would agitate and lobby for same BUT blocking roads, extending footpaths to extinguish left filter lanes removing parking and changing light sequences to deliberately create traffic problems just makes things **** for everyone. Even if you are a bicycle nut none of this makes your life any better.

My further point re spite and malice is that as evidenced on every cycling thread on Boards there is a sizeable section of he bicycle mob who support these actions purely on the basis that it "gets" car owners and for no other reason. The same people crop up encouraging others to provoke conflict by cycling in the middle of the road and get cameras to record the trouble they hope to cause etc etc

donvito99 · 09-07-2020 10:20am

Truthvader wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is DCC's action on traffic lights, I am highlighting that this part of a long ongoing campaign to make driving unpleasant and that the bicycle crowd support this campaign

All the roads to Cork Galway Limerick Belfast have been vastly improved plus the M 50 etc etc. Thank God. No charge is paid by me so happily as road toll

DCC have repeatedly taken actions to make things **** for drivers with no other agenda. If you are a bicycle fan I can fully understand why a bicycle lane is a good idea and why you would agitate and lobby for same BUT blocking roads, extending footpaths to extinguish left filter lanes removing parking and changing light sequences to deliberately create traffic problems just makes things **** for everyone. Even if you are a bicycle nut none of this makes your life any better.

My further point re spite and malice is that as evidenced on every cycling thread on Boards there is a sizeable section of he bicycle mob who support these actions purely on the basis that it "gets" car owners and for no other reason. The same people crop up encouraging others to provoke conflict by cycling in the middle of the road and get cameras to record the trouble they hope to cause etc etc

Clearly it doesn't. Wider footpaths and longer crossing times obviously makes life easier for pedestrians.

The purpose is to discourage driving. There was crazy traffic prior to these measures and crazy traffic after. That's fairly telling.

I don't agree with these measures but saying that it is just to "get" motorists is silly, it's to "get" all of the shite resulting from the traffic caused by cars that everyone has to put up with, COVID or not.

bigar · 09-07-2020 11:02am

the boss of me wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. It's the ridiculously short time the traffic light is staying green that is causing the problem and making the car so inefficient. But it's not just cars being held up. There is no bus priority on that particular stretch of road so the short sequence is having an adverse effect on buses.

The point is that traffic lights are needed because there are too many private cars and taxis blocking up the city. Reduce these and less traffic lights are needed. Bus lanes would also no longer be required.

The amount of junctions with traffic lights in Dublin is ridiculous and people really need to get into a mindset of not wanting to go everywhere by car.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-07-2020 11:12am

Truthvader wrote: »

DCC have repeatedly taken actions to make things **** for drivers with no other agenda.

Tbh what makes "things **** for drivers" is all the other drivers.

Problem is drivers make things **** for bus users, cyclists, pedestrians, residents and the environment in general too.

Because private cars are such a wildly inefficient use of road space, road space demand always rises to exceed road space provision. This is the case everywhere in the world except for authoritarian states which drastically ration car ownership.

Dublin needs to undergo a major shift away from private car commuting if it is to become a livable and viable city. You can choose to be part of the problem, or part of the solution.

(Before working from home I was a motorcycle commuter)

_Kaiser_ · 09-07-2020 11:17am

Listening to Eoin Keegan from DCC on R1 here and he seems to be acknowledging that the light changes are causing issues as general traffic has increased again and complaints are mounting. Seems to be suggesting that they'll look at moving the timing back to somewhere closer to what it was "100 seconds rather than 120"

beauf · 09-07-2020 12:08pm

I'm a little confused by all this.

Even as a keen cyclist, I cannot do all my journeys by bicycle or public transport. So some car use is inevitable. Sometimes I might have a situation where I have to do all my journeys by car.
Even where I can use my bikes, there are other issues not being addressed. High level of bicycle theft etc. It makes using a decent bike or something like an eBike problematic.
An my work has off road, secure(ish) bike cage. But they can break into anything. They need to crack down on bike crime with severe penalties.

WFH home and even flexible hours plays a big part in traffic. The Govt needs to incentive staggered opening, for schools and offices, and WFH.

Planning. Our planning is brutal. We are creating bottlenecks and demand problems with our planning. Look at national children's hospital fisaco. I dread visiting that a peak, or parking at it.
Local junctions are all destroyed by poor signalling, and design. Then traffic is blamed. But it only part of the issue. Instead of doing more with less. We are doing less with more.

Yes we have to move to less car use, and yes you have try it. But the traffic at the moment is not at normal levels. Its mistake to think all these measures are working based on the current traffic levels. TBH I would said they aren't working.

If the answer is tough, that just how it is. Fine.

markpb · 09-07-2020 12:15pm

Truthvader wrote: »

DCC have repeatedly taken actions to make things **** for drivers with no other agenda. If you are a bicycle fan I can fully understand why a bicycle lane is a good idea and why you would agitate and lobby for same BUT blocking roads, extending footpaths to extinguish left filter lanes removing parking and changing light sequences to deliberately create traffic problems just makes things **** for everyone. Even if you are a bicycle nut none of this makes your life any better.

You have a persecution complex. Slip lanes are being removed because they are dangerous for cyclists, not to make drivers lives worse. Footpaths are being widened because pedestrians need more space, not to make drivers lives worse. Parking spots were removed to create space for cycle lanes, not to make drivers lives worse. Light sequences were changed to reduce the time pedestrians need to wait to cross the road, not to make drivers lives worse. All these things benefit lots of people. You could even say that they benefit you by encouraging others out of their cars which makes more space for you. It might even encourage other people to be healthier, leaving more capacity in the health system for you if you need it.

You really need to get over yourself and your weird obsession that they're out to get you, it's unhealthy.

magicbastarder · 09-07-2020 12:17pm

i don't see much of a link between 'ridiculously short traffic light sequences' and 'making things better for non-motorised road users'.

in theory, the traffic control centre monitors the traffic and adjusts the sequences as traffic changes, both tactically and strategically. maybe that's why the sequence length is unpredictable on the lights i pass through.

beauf · 09-07-2020 12:19pm

I see what they are trying to improve. That's fair enough.

But there are also putting in stupid bottlenecks for no reason.

In one local estate, they spent a fortune putting in a bus lanes, cut down trees, moved pavements back, the works.
Then put in two artificial bottlenecks at both ends. Completely defeating the purpose.

Lots of stuff like that.

beauf · 09-07-2020 12:21pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't see much of a link between 'ridiculously short traffic light sequences' and 'making things better for non-motorised road users'.

in theory, the traffic control centre monitors the traffic and adjusts the sequences as traffic changes, both tactically and strategically. maybe that's why the sequence length is unpredictable on the lights i pass through.

I heard it was to allow longer red lights to give pedestrian longer to cross. Gives them more priority use of the road.

Not - non-motorised road users.

magicbastarder · 09-07-2020 12:23pm

as mentioned, at lights near me, the lights are already going amber before the first car to move has cleared the junction, that's what i meant by ridiculously short. they've gone from maybe 10 or 15s (at a guess) to about 3s.
i can't say for certain if that only happens if a pedestrian has pressed the crossing button, must look out for that in future.

beauf · 09-07-2020 12:33pm

They've been at this for longer than the lock down I've seen it all over the city in the last year or two.

There are numerous junctions I use where the timings make no sense. Also most no time to get through. Sit there for minutes looking at empty roads and a red light. First car fumbles a gear change, and everyone has to sit through another sequence. Sometimes 2 or 3.

I complained to one local engineer why they had put in lights in one estate at a minor junction, constantly stopping 99% of traffic to let 1% turn across it.
Just about 400m way is another junction the 1% could use, avoiding using lights at the first junction completely, and not causing a bottleneck.
The lights make almost no sense at peak in the morning. None the rest of the day or the weekend.

They are at this all over.

magicbastarder · 09-07-2020 12:35pm

yeah, it definitely predates lockdown locally to me too.

LeinsterDub · 09-07-2020 1:44pm

beauf wrote: »

They've been at this for longer than the lock down I've seen it all over the city in the last year or two.

There are numerous junctions I use where the timings make no sense. Also most no time to get through. Sit there for minutes looking at empty roads and a red light. First car fumbles a gear change, and everyone has to sit through another sequence. Sometimes 2 or 3.

I complained to one local engineer why they had put in lights in one estate at a minor junction, constantly stopping 99% of traffic to let 1% turn across it.
Just about 400m way is another junction the 1% could use, avoiding using lights at the first junction completely, and not causing a bottleneck.
The lights make almost no sense at peak in the morning. None the rest of the day or the weekend.

They are at this all over.

If Irish drivers could be trusted or the law significantly enforced Dutch style junctions and zebra crossings would be a win for everyone

markpb · 09-07-2020 1:56pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't see much of a link between 'ridiculously short traffic light sequences' and 'making things better for non-motorised road users'.

Long cycles mean pedestrians (and sometimes cyclists) have to wait a long time to cross the road. Short traffic cycles mean pedestrians will, on average, have less time to wait. These are the same pedestrians who frequently have to wait at three or more traffic lights to cross one road.

Making pedestrians wait less time has many benefits. It makes walking more attractive which means people are healthier and there may be reduced congestion if people switch from driving to walking. And right now, it also means less of a crowd building up waiting to cross. Crowds are bad when you're trying to social distance, especially in the city centre where there are more pedestrians and limited waiting room, especially on islands. Social distancing is not a problem when you're driving so you might not appreciate the impact on pedestrians.

beauf · 09-07-2020 2:13pm

They are also doing this where there are almost no pedestrians and they also have being doing this pre-lock down. Though they seem to have increased it during the lock down.

So if people say they aren't doing it to target drivers. I'd have to disagree with you.

Maybe its unavoidable with the grand aim of getting everyone to walk. If you have to drive you have to suck it up.

markpb · 09-07-2020 2:19pm

beauf wrote: »

They are also doing this where there are almost no pedestrians and they also have being doing this pre-lock down. Though they seem to have increased it during the lock down.

There were plenty of pedestrians during lock down! In a lot of areas, there were more pedestrians than drivers because people were getting out and about for exercise. The number of cars on the road has grown but the number of cyclists and pedestrians doesn’t seem to have fallen, especially in the city centre.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-07-2020 4:43pm

Footpath provision in Dublin city centre has been grossly inadequate for years now.

beauf · 09-07-2020 6:58pm

markpb wrote: »

There were plenty of pedestrians during lock down! In a lot of areas, there were more pedestrians than drivers because people were getting out and about for exercise. The number of cars on the road has grown but the number of cyclists and pedestrians doesn’t seem to have fallen, especially in the city centre.

That's great but it has nothing to do my comment which you quoted.

magicbastarder · 09-07-2020 9:21pm

markpb wrote: »

Long cycles mean pedestrians (and sometimes cyclists) have to wait a long time to cross the road. Short traffic cycles mean pedestrians will, on average, have less time to wait. These are the same pedestrians who frequently have to wait at three or more traffic lights to cross one road.

i get that. it doesn't explain a 3 second long green sequence on traffic lights.

Truthvader · 14-07-2020 10:04am

markpb wrote: »

Long cycles mean pedestrians (and sometimes cyclists) have to wait a long time to cross the road. Short traffic cycles mean pedestrians will, on average, have less time to wait. These are the same pedestrians who frequently have to wait at three or more traffic lights to cross one road.

Making pedestrians wait less time has many benefits. It makes walking more attractive which means people are healthier and there may be reduced congestion if people switch from driving to walking. And right now, it also means less of a crowd building up waiting to cross. Crowds are bad when you're trying to social distance, especially in the city centre where there are more pedestrians and limited waiting room, especially on islands. Social distancing is not a problem when you're driving so you might not appreciate the impact on pedestrians.

Awe did you have to wait to cross the road?

markpb · 14-07-2020 11:09am

Truthvader wrote: »

Awe did you have to wait to cross the road?

Not any more, no. Thanks for the concern

Did you have to wait at a red light?

cruizer101 · 14-07-2020 5:48pm

markpb wrote: »

Making pedestrians wait less time has many benefits. It makes walking more attractive which means people are healthier and there may be reduced congestion if people switch from driving to walking.

Really? I've never thought I won't walk because there are too many pedestrian crossings, only ever think of the distance.

A balance needs to be struck, there are lights going green for a couple of seconds when there are no pedestrians whatsoever, thats not balance.
It would be fair enough if everyone had an alternative, but lots of people don't have viable alternatives.

markpb · 14-07-2020 9:21pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

A balance needs to be struck, there are lights going green for a couple of seconds when there are no pedestrians whatsoever, thats not balance.

There’s generally only one reason why that happens. A pedestrian has pressed the button and either got bored waiting and ran or there was a gap in the traffic and crossed safely. What does that tell you about the priority given to pedestrians?

It would be fair enough if everyone had an alternative

Encouraging people who can to walk or cycle means less cars competing for limited road space. If you can’t walk but others now can, there are fewer cars ahead of you.

lots of people don't have viable alternatives.

CSO data suggests that lots of people in cities do have alternatives but choose not to use them (sometimes for very good reasons). A huge percentage of people commute under 5km which is ideal distance for cycling.

FarmerBob · 06-08-2020 10:32am

markpb wrote: »

There’s generally only one reason why that happens. A pedestrian has pressed the button and either got bored waiting and ran or there was a gap in the traffic and crossed safely. What does that tell you about the priority given to pedestrians?

Not so, lots of pedestrian crossings are on auto, so they run every time regardless of whether someone is waiting to cross or not.

markpb wrote: »

Encouraging people who can to walk or cycle means less cars competing for limited road space. If you can’t walk but others now can, there are fewer cars ahead of you.

The problem with using a stick approach (eg cutting lanes, reducing green signal times, blocking off roads etc) is that whilst it's great for those who can actually switch to walking or cycling, it creates a nightmare for those who cannot or need to drive for work. Definitely needs to be a balanced approach.

markpb wrote: »

CSO data suggests that lots of people in cities do have alternatives but choose not to use them (sometimes for very good reasons). A huge percentage of people commute under 5km which is ideal distance for cycling.

But the way Dublin has developed means that way too many people live 10, 20 or 30k from work .. public transport is usually either not feasible or just too jammed to use. If we had a decent public transport service, it would then make sense to use the stick..alas we dont and it's unfair on those who have no choice. Also an awful lot of folk have issues that mean they cant cycle.
Everyone needs to be catered for..

markpb · 06-08-2020 11:17am

FarmerBob wrote: »

Not so, lots of pedestrian crossings are on auto, so they run every time regardless of whether someone is waiting to cross or not.

Lots? I haven't seen a junction in Dublin configured like that in years. Where are they?

The problem with using a stick approach (eg cutting lanes, reducing green signal times, blocking off roads etc) is that whilst it's great for those who can actually switch to walking or cycling, it creates a nightmare for those who cannot or need to drive for work. Definitely needs to be a balanced approach.

How do you propose improving conditions for pedestrians and cyclists without there being some negative impact on drivers? How do you make it faster for pedestrians to cross the road without drivers having to wait longer? I think you're looking for the impossible.

Also you're calling it a stick when it's not. Improving conditions for pedestrians is done to improve conditions for pedestrians, not because someone in DCC is sitting behind a desk cackling because they're making life worse for motorists.

FarmerBob wrote: »

But the way Dublin has developed means that way too many people live 10, 20 or 30k from work

CSO/Census data says that your anecdotal experience is not correct. There might be many people driving around the M50 each day but there are also many, many people making trips much shorter than that.

c.p.w.g.w · 06-08-2020 11:19am

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Walking and cycling will hopefully take off more.

Depending on where in the country you are, try finding somewhere safe to lock your bike

Ridiculous short interval at traffic lights

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